Author Topic: Data Over Load  (Read 1353 times)

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Offline Siskiyou

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Data Over Load
« on: April 20, 2010, 04:47:53 PM »


Years past my low elevation range was at 1900 feet and my high one at 6700 feet elevation.  I like the high elevation one because of the scenery and it best matches the elevation I hunt at.  But the high elevation one has snow on the ground some years in late May.  Much of my load date has been developed at the upper location with temperatures in the 70˚F range.  What is safe up there may not be at my new low elevation spot.



In addition I have two more variables, a different lot of powder, and primers from a different manufacture.   I decided I would start over and develop loads for the new location.  At my old location my notes show that 78.5 grains of powder was accurate and no signs of pressure problems.  In fact I have a note to try 79.0 grains. 

I happen to have the 25 cases from that session and they have not been touched since.  I went to work with my calipers and measure each case at six locations starting at the head, belt, just above the belt, shoulder, lower neck, and mouth.  Next I inspected the primers for problems. 

The bottomline was that every case did not measure exactly the same as the one before, but they did not exceed the specs in the manuals.  After fussing with them I concluded what I had the day I fired them.  The loads were safe and I need to think about increasing the powder charge.

Some key information was missing from my data; I did not have any velocity.  My notes tell me that there were thunderstorms that day and the Chrony did not like the light conditions with the clouds passing overhead.

I was also missing case measurements before the loads were fired.

It is another rainy day, and I decided to gather information from the lot of fifty I had completed loading.  The lot is broke up of units of 75.0, 76.0, 77.0, and 78.0 grains.  I have marked each case with the powder weight, and bullet weight with magic marker.  I randomly selected three rounds of each powder charge.  I identified ten rounds with two red dots near the base and an assigned number.  I have listed the same heading as on did on the other cases.  I left an open line to record after firing data.

I just pulled five WW component cases out of the bag.  These cases are the same as the day I bought them new from the retailer.  There is enough variance between cases that the only meaningful data must come from before and measurements of the same case.  When measuring down to the nearest .001manufacturing variances can miss lead the handloader if only after measurements are taken.
 
I have a hundred new nickel Remington cases somewhere, and I expect they will have variances.  What I do not know is what the acceptable variance is for a given case.  SAAMI headspace dimensions for a case have been established.  One controlling factor might be measuring factory fired cases from the same rifle, but the dimensions of the fired cases are likely to very a couple of thousandths in a box.

I am hoping the measurements will have more meaning with the before and after measurements from the same case.  This is a little more in depth then my normal practice.  I error on the side of caution while a brother who is a more experience loader that I, loads them, shots them, and pulls bullet on a regular bases.  Of course his more experience includes a few blown primers.




There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 11:24:35 PM »
Hmmmm...not sure why you are obsessing over case measurements.  I look for obvious defects of bulging, cracks, or discoloration that might signal case separation.  I trim length and weigh each case.  Then sort according to weight.  I use cases that are or nearly are the same weight.  The same-weight-case variable should provide for similar internal case characteristics and powder capacity.  I turn and trim the necks for consistent thickness and concentricity and champfer case mouths inside and out to debur and offset for straight wall bullet bases.  Variances in case measurements beyond these are not in my regime of preparation.

In my reloading, the controlable variables are as above as well as bullet weight, consistent primer seating, measured powder charge, bullet seating depth, and a steady rest.


Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 01:54:40 AM »
I'm also not sure why you're obsessing.  In loading THOUSANDS of cartridges, I've never measured case diameters much less in 6 places and don't intend to.  If the cases are new, they go into the gun and get shot.  If they're used, they're inspected, resized, trimmed if needed, tumbled and shot.  Also, 4,000 feet or even 10,000 feet difference in altitude isn't going to make a significant change in cartridge pressure.

I do recognize that you're having fun with this however.

Offline wncchester

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2010, 05:27:56 AM »
Issue 1:   "...the high elevation one has snow on the ground some years in late May."

That's caused by Global Warming.  All Gore is working on it.  


Issue 2:  "..variance between cases ..measuring down to the nearest .001 manufacturing variances can miss lead the handloader.."

This one is easier; ignore it.  You're misleading yourself because our cases aren't that precise and the tiny variations you are concerned with don't matter.   It comes from the brass alloy NOT being a precise mix of metals and it also work hardens as we use it.  Meaning it has harder/softer places that expand and shrink somewhat differently at different points in the case.   Try measureing all of your fired (or resized) cases at the shoulder, you're likely to get as much as 3, sometimes 4, thou difference in total spread on 20 rounds.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline huntducks

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2010, 07:40:58 AM »
I have a headache.
Remember it's where the first bullet goes out of a cold barrel that counts most.

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2010, 10:43:14 AM »
I was kind of thinking you were making a long-term research project or something.  Comparing measurements to chamber pressures, altitude, moom angle, whafting dew at sunrise, etc.   ;D

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 12:13:00 PM »
I realized that I was opening the barn door when I post my little experiment into using a measure device.  After fifty plus years reloading this is my first journey into multiple measurements of cases.   The one critical measurement I did not take in this journey was case length.  I had already dealt with the critical case length measurement.  My reloading dates back to before this cartridge was developed and my old multi-cartridge gauge does not have a slot for it.  I do use calipers to measures the length of a couple of cases and adjust my case trimmer to the published case length.   Hornady and other sources have published information on case length issues for years.

I bought the rifle in 1979 and almost put it on the use gun rack weeks later.  I went to the range with factory ammunition from Federal, Remington, and Winchester in two different bullet weights.  The rifle shot patterns not groups.  I checked the scope, mount, the bedding screws, and everything appeared to be okay.  I was a little sick to my stomach that I had bought a new clunker.  I am sure that a few of you have done the shake test.   Put a loaded case up to your ear and give it a shake.  It was apparent to me that there was a lot of unused space in the cases.  I had already pickup that handloads around 80% or greater capacity tend to be the accuracy loads. 
Using the brass I had generated when first firing the rifle I loaded the different brass with 4831(surplus), magnum primers, and bulk Remington bullets.  Suddenly the rifle was shooting groups.  The rifle does okay with other component bullets.  Last spring I grabbed a couple boxes of Winchester factory ammunition I had.  At the range I fired a few rounds of my reloads and everything was great.  I switched to the factory loads and accuracy fell apart.

I have been looking for the Why?
 
As a new reloader for the 270 Winchester case length became a problem after loading my hoard of cases three or four times.  Loads that worked without a problem in my rifle suddenly became a problem.  I bought a Forrester Case trimmer and a .27 pilot and the problem was solved. 

A few years down the road and I was loading for a second .270 Winchester, the selling point to my wife was that one would be setup to hunt brush country, and the second one would be a lighter one for hunting the high country.  I am sure you will find publications regarding different justifications husbands have used.  Loading for two rifles of the same caliber required a little adjustment because each rifle is a law on to itself.  Of course I had to changes the load mix, I had been loading a 150-grain Norma Match bullet for the M760 and it was deadly on deer.  I went for the 150-grain Sierra BT for the Savage 110CL.  My charge was below the recommend charge for surplus 4831, but when it came to the Savage I was experiencing a tight bolt.  At the time I had two or three reloading manuals and the charge I was using fell into the medium category.  I drop the charge by .5 grains and the issue went away.  This was my first adventure in loading Sierra bullets and after dropping the load by .5 grains I found a new Sierra Reloading manual, copyright 1971.  The maximum charge of 4831 and the 150-grain Sierra shown is 56.2 grains.  I had dropped my charge to 56.0 grains.  Other manuals showed 58.0 grains as maximum.

My learning curve started well before the internet, and numerous sources of components, manual and opinions on the net.  In the mid 1960’s the deer herds were large and there were a lot of hunters out.  I visited camps and talked to them alongside the road while validating deer tags.  The most common complaint was with reloaded ammunition.  Most of the reloader’s from the fifteen year-old to the older loader manned up regarding the failure.  Some of the common failures were the lack of powder in a case to rounds that were too long and jammed the action.  Quality control was the issue.  In the same camp the quality of reloads varied, and there were differences between family members.  In one camp there was a heavy meat pole with many members filling two tags.  One member lost his opportunity, because he failed to charge a case, and was having other issues.  He waited until the last minute to load his ammunition.  He had a .30 caliber bullet lodged in his bore.  Nobody in camp would let him use their cleaning rod to drive the bullet out.
He wanted to “barrow” my cleaning rod.  My advice was a trip to town and buy a hard wood dowel at the lumber yard that would slide down the bore, or better yet visit the local gun shop and hope the gunsmith was in, and not out hunting.

The Lesson Learn:  Resolve all load issues before the trip and not on the trip.

Sierra hints at two standards of loading one being Target accuracy and I guess the other is hunting accuracy.  I am sure there are different requirements between using a M14 in competition which automatically feed ammunition and ammunition that is necked sized and fed into a single shot bolt action. 

A friend’s father was a noted competition shooter and during the fall hunted in deer in two or three States with generous bag limits.  He was a three State .30 champion.  I believe because of his background as an aircraft power plant mechanic and heavy duty mechanic he had good reloading skills.  He had a dedicated area on his bench close to his office where he reloaded.  I paid attention to his 30-06 hunting loads.  In those days he loaded the Hornady 165-grain SP for deer, and charged the case with IMR4064.  After IMR4350 was introduced he worked with it.  The bottom line is that he never suffered from ammunition failure in the hunting field.  If he did I would have heard about it from my best buddy his son.  I noticed that he had a couple of micrometers on his bench. 

I have read that some loaders spin their bullets and even have gauges that measure the tilt of their bullet when loading precision ammunition.   I have not gone that far.

So my loads now pass the shake test, and I am loading slow burning powders near case capacity.  I am looking at all the factors that I can for pressure issue for one that does not have expensive pressure testing equipment. 

Every once a while I get a wakeup call when loading.  One of them came with the 140-grain Hornady BT in the 270 Winchester.  I thought I could reach a certain charge safely, but started out cautiously.  I started at the recommend starting load, jumping a grain the first two increments, and then dropping to half grain increments.  At the first half grain increment I started getting a stiff bolt.  I pulled the heavier charges, dropped back and increased in .01 grain increments.  I examined primers, case head expansion as shown on page 16, Hornady Third addition.  The load effectively killed deer but I had my eye open for an alternative powder.

I had a supply of WW785 which I used for the 243, and my 130-grain antelope load in the .270.  Until I got the Hornady Third edition I did not have data for WW785 and the 140-grain, .277 bullet.  WW785 has long been discontinued, but there were a lot of cautions with the data put out by WW regarding not reducing loads.  A lot of time and effort went into load development compared to some other loads.  The maximum charge shown is 59.5 grains.  In increments of .01 I loaded to it and went a little beyond without a problem.  I examined the primer, measured the case head, and measured for case stretching.  I then switched to Remington nickel plated cases to identify the load.  It is the only 270 load I have in nickel cases.  A dime will cover a three shot group from this combination.  I load 59.3 grains.

The bonus came with the first buck I shot with it.  The buck had his head, and neck stretched out from behind a big Ponderosa pine.  At the shot I could see the hooves in a summersault in my scope.

As for the rifle that does not like factory ammunition, what would I do for ammunition on the road?  I might ask the guy behind the counter if I could do an ammunition shake test or I would reach for the backup 270.
P.S.
Land Owner you are close, I check the weather data at the nearest RAWS. (Remote Automated Weather Station) 

 ;D
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline fatercat

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2010, 02:34:41 PM »
DAMN!!!!

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2010, 03:02:48 PM »
Siskiyou, I thought reloading was suppose to be fun. After reading all that, and that much input and time, I might just take up golf.gypsyman ::)
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2010, 04:17:44 PM »
Sis...with that rifle I would hunt your handloads all day and twice on Sunday.  My 270 Win Model 70 Featherweight is a lot like that.  I hunt handloads exclusively.  Had a few primer failures to ignite in 20 seasons.  Nothing serious that ever cost me a buck or doe.  She doesn't like factory ammo at all, but with handloads she will out shoot me in a heartbeat.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2010, 04:22:32 PM »
I have a headache.

I'm getting dizzy............ :D
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2010, 04:08:37 PM »
While hanging out at GBO for 18 months, I have learned what may well be two secrets of the universe. There is no doubt in my mind that I will use these when I get back on my feet with another centerfire.

1. Reload using the ladder method of load development after you have trimmed all empty brass to minimum.

2. Resize every shot case with only an X-Die, setup for your rifle according to the instructions.

These appear to be two fundamental roads to reloading nirvana.

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2010, 08:38:04 PM »
Siskiyou - I do have to agree with your concerns for loads created at one elevation and used at a significantly different elevation - an additional concern is impending temperatures. Loads developed in the fall and being used in the summer. Where it hit me was moving from 7000ft in Green River, Wy to near sea level at San Diego. My 'normal' hunting loads for Wyoming in most of my rifles were in the max zone in the San Diego area - with stuck cases in one particular rifle. Going from 7000ft to 10000ft where we hunted wasn't a problem and I never had a problem at 7000ft at any temperature. But, San Diego gave me fits! Now, in North Idaho, I'm only at 2500 to 4000ft and going back to my "Wyoming" loads has been fine - though I don't shoot in the summer, the falls have been temperate, without a problem.

Cool to be cool headed when "playing with dynomite".
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline PawPaw

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2010, 09:47:48 AM »
2. Resize every shot case with only an X-Die, setup for your rifle according to the instructions.

I've been reloading for two decades and I've never heard of an X-Die.  I either full-length size, or I use a collet die on the neck. 


Hey, Siskiyou.  Have you ever tried Reloder 22 powder in that .270?  I doubt that you could stuff enough in the case to over-pressure anything. (you might if you tried packing it in with a dowel.  Not my recommendation) My brother-in-law has some loads worked up for that caliber with good velocity, very accurate.

I use R22 in the .243 Winchester and the .25-06 Rem with excellent results.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2010, 12:30:18 PM »
2. Resize every shot case with only an X-Die, setup for your rifle according to the instructions.

I've been reloading for two decades and I've never heard of an X-Die.  I either full-length size, or I use a collet die on the neck. 

Hey Paw Paw, if you use an X-Die your rifle brass basically never grows again more than a few thou then stops, so it eliminates case trimming except for the initial trim to minimum.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2010, 08:38:51 PM »

I have thought about Reloader 22 in the 270 because it has a burning rate close to my old flame WW785.  Playing the data game Reloader 22 should work in the magnum.  I have found that my old favorite H4831 works well in the Magnum, but looking for velocity at low pressure I stocked up on H870 and AA8700 long time back.  To get enough power without crushing it I use a reloading funnel with a long drop tube.  That gained me some space in the case, so I now stack another long tube funnel on top of that totaling just over 15-inches of drop.

There are a couple reasons why I purchased the surplus cannon powder.   It was about a third of the price of other powders, and in Magnum size cases they produce high velocity at low pressure.  The powders use space up fast in cases, and fit my criteria of filling the case because it factors high in the accuracy scale.  If I use a standard drop tube I have powder filling the case neck.  If I use my combined drop tube the powder level is near the shoulder and the bullet is not packing the powder down when it is seated into the case.

If I back up to my experience loading for the 270 Winchester using surplus 4831 now known as H4831 I used the crush the powder method with the bullet when loading a maximum load of 6X.0 of 4831 topped by a 130-grain Hornady bullet; of course I carefully worked up to that level.  As I recall the old Winchester-Western recommend load for a 130-grain bullet in the .270 Winchester was 60.5 grains of WW785 and it put powder into the neck.  Last year I dug out a box of 270 rounds I loaded in 1972.  According to the sticker on the box I was two grains under maximum.

I have to back up and say safety comes first when working up a load. 

I had been loading the 270 Win. a few years and I went to work for the F.S. as a seasonal firefighter (FF).  I meet Max who was the local king of the hill when it came to killing bucks.  He would kill twenty to thirty a year.  I and a couple other FF were put with the highly qualified Max to hike into the back country and fight a lightning fire.  We put a line around the ground fire, but had to wait until daylight to fall a huge Ponderous Pine that had a burning cat face.  We talked guns, and deer hunting while we waited for daylight.

Max told me that he used the primed case as a scoop, filled the case with 4831 and crushed the powder with a 139-grain bullet.  His load did everything a .270 would do.  Max’s best friend later confirmed that Max used the case as a scoop and then seated the bullet.  Max’s success as a deer hunter and bar fighter is not enough to convince me not to measure my powder charges.

Max was loading for a 7X57.  I have no idea if his load was safe or not.

I know that while I work up the Magnum load I well reach my stopping point.  I am hoping that case expansion, primer condition, bolt lift, will give me a clue when to stop. 

I have come to the conclusion to get the most out of a cartridge in a standard case the barrel should be at least 24-inchs long, and 26-inches long in a magnum. 

There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2010, 02:14:08 AM »
IMHO you are chasing a raggedy edge in your load development.  I never went to the max with any Win 270 load and still kill a lot of deer, hogs, and turkey just as dead without the worry that 60,000 psi or higher was about to take off my hand, forehead, face or worse.  I found the load my Featherweight rifle likes nearer the lower end of the reloading range with IMR 4831.  When bullet holes on paper touch, or nearly touch, the rifle and scope are "tuned", I am satisfied and confident that if I do my part, control breathing and anxiety (buck fever), use a steady rest, and sqeeze not jerk the trigger I will be taking home the venison.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2010, 07:20:40 PM »


A hunting partner and his son load IMR4831 with success in the son’s 270 Winchester with 140-grain Nosler bullets.

Back in the early 1960’s I came up with a couple one gallon jugs of surplus 4831 for a few bucks.  Along the way I also picked up a few one pound cans of surplus 4831 for less than two bucks a can. When Hodgdon first introduced H4831 manufactured in Scotland I bought 8-pounds.  My brother offered me a one can of IMR4831 and I passed, not that I think there is anything wrong with IMR4831 but I did not want to introduce a potential problem to my loading bench because they are not the same.

I picked up some WW785 and tried it in the 270 Winchester and the .243.  I found it a great powder to work with, a paid close attention to the warning from Winchester regarding this slow burning powder.  The warning was not to reduce below the recommended load.  In the case of 130-grain bullet the recommend bullet the charge was 60.5-grains.  C.U.P pressure 51,000.

I got this 15 ¾” antelope using the 60.5-grain charge and a 130-grain Hornady SP bullet at a little over 250-yards.



I collected a number of deer with the same load at varying ranges including this backpack buck.  (Blacktail)

I was scared to death to reduce or increase the recommended charge.  A number of popular writers at the time warned that “slow burning” ball powder might explode rather than burn in reduced loads.  I did step over the edge and used CCI primers, and Hornady bullets.  The Sixth addition says they used standard Winchester Western primers and of course the load shows P.P. which stands for Power Point.

I have a number of loading resources, old and new.  I just dug out the Winchester®Western Ball Powder Loading Data, Sixth Edition 3/80.  On page 26 it list the 785 load with an asterisk*. At the bottom of the page” *Caution: Loads marked with the asterisk(*) must be exactly as shown.  No reductions in powder charge or change in components should be made because such changes can cause dangerous pressures.”

This bullet from the load was recovered from a Mule deer.  I did not recover the bullet that killed the rattlesnake that almost got me that day while I was carrying deer meat to a shaded spot.  I skinned the deer, cut it up and packed it about three miles on a packframe to the Land Cruiser.  To be young again.


It the same data manual it is stated, “Loading densities:  Ball Powders are usually held to a loading density of 89% to 98%.  Loads with density above or below this figure are usually rejected.”

I found that load density when using H4831 and WW785 are similar, I would not use data from one to load the other; just an observation.



130-grain bullet

There was a lot of data for it and I jumped on the band wagon.  The 4831 was a big improvement over IMR4064 what is a little on the fast side for the 270 Winchester.  At the time most of the manuals showed a maximum charge of 60.0 or 61.0 grains.  When you get around 60-grains of 4831 you start filling up the neck, I went up to 61.0 without a problem. I settled on a charge of 59.0 grains.  I used this charge with 130-grain Bronze Points, Remington C-L, and Hornady SP.  I have seen loads in excess of 61.0 grains published but I wonder how they got it in the case.  I switch to 150-grain bullets and later 140-grain in a couple of 270’s because I am after the exit hole when possible.  Hodgdon manual shows a 60-grain charge producing 48,500 c.u.p.   The maximum working pressure for the .270 Winchester is 54,000 CUP.  Using the above numbers the 60-grain charge of H4831 produces just under 90% of the industry working pressure for the .270 Winchester.

*Pressure measurements are a moving target, the above pressure is from a Hodgdon manual, going to the internet site the maximum charge of 60.0 grains of H4831 produces 51,000 CUP.  Pushes the load to .94% and the load is compressed.

I have stated in other post that I load for three 270 Winchesters.  There are times I travel some distance to hunt.  I have been known to take two 270 Winchesters to Colorado.  If I plan on hunting with a different caliber I will take a 270 as a backup rifle on the trip.

This little exercise got me to review my loading history with the 270 using my notes, old, and new data sources.  I feel comfortable that my loads are below maximum pressures and I am not walking the line with them.  I will admit that when I was in my early teens I had the owner of a local gunshop load a hundred cases with IMR4064 and 130-grain bullets.  He and I set down and I said okay to the load he advised me was good.  It killed a lot of deer, and I had a second hundred loaded.  Not a wood chuck or jack rabbit attack me after being hit with the load.  The load came from a book written by P.O. Ackley.  The load was also at about 99% of max, not a place where I want to be today.  I learned that I can achieve higher velocities with slower burning powders in the 270 Winchester at a lower percentage of max.

The Magnum

The Magnum is not a primary hunting rifle; it comes out every few years.  In this time of component shortage I am in good shape with the appropriate bullets, primers, and powder.  One of the unpleasant facts is the hard, red-rubber butt plates on the old Ruger M77is a point towards selling rifle.  I have fired the rifle more now that it is sporting a Decelerator®Recoil Pad.   Normally I take two rifles with me to the range.  This rifle is going to be a fixture in the rotation. 


There has been a lot written about loading belted cases and I have done some loading for this rifle over the years.  My goal is to load safe, effective ammunition that is accurate in a rifle that does not like factory ammunition. 

In some cases the loader starts running out of space before pressure exceeds the recommend number.  A good example is the use of H870 in belted cases.  I am looking at a maximum with a heavy for caliber bullet generating a velocity of 2918 and generating 48,600 CUP.  This is a compressed load.  Same case, same bullet but using H4831 generates 2869 fps and 53,800 CUP.   The industry standard for this case is 54,000.  My goal is to burn the H870 and the AA8700 I have in this case. 

There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline DannoBoone

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2010, 10:24:29 AM »
2. Resize every shot case with only an X-Die, setup for your rifle according to the instructions.

I've been reloading for two decades and I've never heard of an X-Die.  I either full-length size, or I use a collet die on the neck.  

Hey Paw Paw, if you use an X-Die your rifle brass basically never grows again more than a few thou then stops, so it eliminates case trimming except for the initial trim to minimum.

Again, what the heck is this X-Die??? I have full length dies, neck dies, collet dies, but never heard of an
X-Die...........and I've been reloading over FOUR decades!!!



Sis...with that rifle I would hunt your handloads all day and twice on Sunday.  I hunt handloads exclusively.

+1  The only rifles I have that have shot factory loads are the rimfires (and if they could be
home-loaded)...... ;D
We need to change our politicians
like we do dirty diapers.............
for the same reason.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2010, 11:30:05 AM »
RCBS on their X-Die

http://www.rcbs.com/

There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Data Over Load
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2010, 06:19:54 PM »


I was real pleased with the results using AA8700 and the 175-grain Remington C-L at the range.  The old rifle is performing good on handloads but I wanted to generate some more brass and what better way than to shoot some Brand X factory ammunition I bought at good price for the brass a few years ago.  If I mentioned the brand name I would be beat, oiled and feathered.  This would be another chance to prove them right while I had the Chrony setup.

As I mentioned before this rifle does not like factory ammunition and it shoots patterns, not groups.  When I use the Chrony I set the target up at 50-yards to lessen the chance of hitting Chrony with a round.  I am sure the guy at the next bench would not want to get hit with chunks of flying Chrony.  I was shooting a 160-grain pointed bullet and was not very impressed with the velocity.  It averaged out at 2847 fps from a 24-inch barrel.  I was a little more impressed when I ran the numbers comparing it with a very effective 150-grain load out of my .270 Winchester.  When I strolled down and checked the target during a ceasefire I got a little surprise.  I do not have a published velocity for this ammunition but other brands are about 100 fps more than what I got.



The next test will require reloading the brass and see how it performs.

Back to Handloading before firing the factory stuff I fired some 175-grain Hornady bullets across the Chrony.  I came up with an average of 2841 fps.  This is the same load I used for the 175-Remington C-L. I regret not taking a picture of this target.

In an early post I mention that I had some new nickel brass, well I found it and I had already loaded it with the 160-grain Speer Splitzer.   I also found one hundred rounds loaded in brass cases with a charge increase of .05 grains. 

I blame the 100-yard target on age, trembling hands, and the gusty wind.  I confirmed the gusty wind from a printout at a nearby fire weather station.



The hole in the nine ring was a six o’clock hold.    Seeing where that one hit, I adjusted the scope and fired the group.  Corrected average velocity was 3007 fps.  I add 20 fps because the Chrony is set 15 feet from the muzzle.  I used a ballistics program to come up with this close wag.

Setting up the Chrony for me is not fun, I am very careful because I do not want to blow it away.  I do it to gather data.  Once I set it up I wanted to take full advantage of it.  Over twenty years ago I loaded up a hundred rounds using the Speer 160-grain Mag-T bullet and surplus 4831.  I used the mid load in the now ban Speer #7 Manual.    At the time I was impressed with the accuracy of the bullet, but latter switched to 160-grain Splitzer because the Mag-T fly’s like a brick, dropping rapidly, and shedding velocity.  The old load generated 3000 fps.  The manual shows a velocity of 3006 fps.  It should be noted my more current Speer #12 shows a reduction in the load using H4831.

I fired six rounds of the above load; the extreme spread in velocity was 6 fps.  Regrettable I fired these on two different targets.  I did not take a picture because of the two targets, but the bullets on each were touching.

I discussed the results with a brother.  Both of us invested heavily in them years back when a couple of stores were going out of business.  At the time I could not spell computer much less ballistics program.  I might have bought some different bullets. 

Brother asked me if I had shot a deer at over 300-yards in the last few years.  Of course I said no, that I had shot a buck at about 250-yards and he disappeared.  The three buck with him showed a number of times at extended range and I watched closely for the one I had shoot at but he never appeared.   If the buck did show at long range I would have taken the shot to finish him off.  I found the buck dead a short distance from where I shot him.

I spent some time checking the brass, took a few measurements, all the primers look good.  I believe I have achieved my objective and have some good black bear and deer loads.  I have submitted an application for a couple favored deer zones.  I am waiting to hear what the F&G has decided to do regarding bear season.  The bear population has grown, and there are increasing bear problems.  The anti’s of course would like to decrease or stop the taking of teddy bears.  A bear hunting partner has surgery in a couple weeks and we need to see how he is afterwards.  If only deer are on the menu I am thinking those nickel cased 160-grain Spitzers are my choice, if both are on the menu I might step up to the 175-grain bullets.

As the summer progresses I hope to get sometime on the two and three hundred yard ranges to sharpen my skills.  I realize that in some other States hunters take bears at short range over bait.  That is not the case here.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.