Govenor signs anti illegal bill

[jimster]

I honestly don't know how anyone could win a law suite concerning Arizona, they are follwing the law, and the federal government is not following it.

How could anyone win in court against Arizona?  The whining and complaining I understand, but on what basis could anyone win in court?

[nomosendero]

Why do I have this feeling that if Obama had come up with this plan many of you would be complaining that "Hitler" is now asking "Your paper please".
GuzziJohn

Or, what if Obummer had decided we should obey current laws on the books? 

[Dee]

I honestly don't know how anyone could win a law suite concerning Arizona, they are follwing the law, and the federal government is not following it.

How could anyone win in court against Arizona?  The whining and complaining I understand, but on what basis could anyone win in court?

jimster, the federal government have been ignoring the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for decades. Why would you think that running rough shod over the law would bother them. They have bailed out and taken over companies, seized land illegally, slaughtered citizens (Waco & Ruby Ridge), outlawed certain guns, tried to curtail freedom of speech (McCain-Feingold Act), and even started wars without a Congressional vote. State's rights means NOTHING to the government, and listen to Obama already condemning Arizona on national TV.
70% of Arizonian AGREE with the new law, but the minorities are filling the streets around their capital as we speak, protesting the will of the majority, and those are the one's the news media interviews, and show on the news.

[Oldshooter]

Dee you forgot to mention the ones painting swastikas on the state capital buildings in refried beans. Didn't see any coverage of that by the State run media!

[Dee]

Oldshooter, Arizona will be demonized world wide. The most maddening part to me is, you damn well better not get caught in Mexico without your "passaporte' " , or you'll end up in a Mexican jail. Mexico wants the money the illegals send back to their families in Mexico. It helps their pathetic hypocritical economy to the tune of several billion dollars a year.

[Oldshooter]

Yep its Saul Alinsky 101! 
Seems the people of this coumtry have no power what so ever, in Arizona yhe law is favored by 70 % of the people, in America as a whole its like 60 % in favor. Yet the  obama the destroyer and race baiter impunes the good people of Arizona and all that would protect this country from invasion. Wonder if obama can play the fiddle?  Ceaser did as he watched Rome burning!

[Dee]

Well actually it was the Emperor Nero, but I get your drift.

[Oldshooter]

Well actually it was the Emperor Nero, but I get your drift.

You are absolutely right! It was a senior moment! Couldn't think of it to save my life!

[wreckhog]

This should get interesting if Obama visits AZ. If I understand most here, Obama is not a US citizen, but he is passing himself off as one. If Obama is in this country, that implies he is here illegally. Which means that he is supposed to have his papers checked when he is in AZ. If his papers are not checked by the first cop that sees him, then any Arizonian can request that cop check his papers, and sue the police force if that cop does not comply.

Am I correct?

Arizona's new immigration law
• Prohibits state, city or county officials from limiting or restricting "the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law" and allows an Arizona resident to sue an official or agency that adopts or implements a policy that does so. The bill contains a "loser pays" provision meant to deter frivolous lawsuits.

• Requires law enforcement to make a reasonable attempt "when practicable" to determine the immigration status of a person if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is in the U.S. illegally. Officers do not have to do so "if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation."

• Makes it a state crime to be an illegal immigrant by creating a state charge of "willful failure to complete or carry an alien-registration document."

[Dee]

It's a great idea wreckhog, but you and I know it ain't gonna happen. Folks that don't believe he is a U.S. citizen, and I personally have my doubts, have been given the degrading name of "birthers". It will only get worse for Arizona as this thing progresses. Minority groups will flood into the state (already are), and although 70% of the state's population LIKE THE LAW, the "minority illegals" very well, will probably prevail, while the rest of the U.S. sits on it's ass and watches.
Al Sharpten was down there yesterday spreading his blackness around, as a poor oppressed example to all. If they ever get amnesty and citizenship for all those poor, uneducated, and NON LOYAL "Mexican citizens" and allow them to vote in our elections it will be coup degra for the U.S. And most of Washington will support it. Arizona Senator McCain is gonna have whiplash from changin directions so many times.

[Mikey]

Dee: I think that with 70% of the Arizona citizens preferring the law, the notion of the minority illegals winning over on this one is pretty slim and I think that with many Arizonans, if they get pushed they will push back, very hard and with noteworthy finality.

Yes, fat al sharpton went to Arizona and will undoubtedly team up with those poor illegal mexican immigrants and a bunch of out of state liberals to try and force Arizona to repeal the legislation.  I think that what that fat greaser needs is a quiet introduction to Sheriff Joe Arpaio, one of his pink prison jumpsuits and the 100+ temperatures in the Arizona jail camps.....

This will be interesting because there are places where sharptonites can get away with their antics, like on the east and west coasts, but there are definately places where such antics are strongly discouraged..... jmtcw.

[Victor3]

 Unfortunately, I think AZ will eventually cave regardless of what happens in the courts. It will become a $$$ thing, just as it did when the state was faced with various boycotts for not recognizing MLKjr day.

 Oh and in case you didn't know, mexico's el presidente says the new legislation isn't good. We should always make sure foreign leaders sign off on our laws before we implement them....

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-26/mexicans-are-angered-by-arizona-law-calderon-says-update1-.html

 At least AZ doesn't buy into the stupid daylight saving stuff. Gotta give 'em a tip o' the hat for that.

[BBF]

It would help if Texas joins in on that and then CA but that last one won't ever get out of the hangar.

[Dee]

Mikey I sincerely hope your right, and I'm wrong, but my prediction is enough goofy law suits will be filed based on frivolous UNCONSTITUTIONALITY of the law, that the LAW WILL BE SUSPENDED PENDING COURT DECISIONS, thereby rendering the law powerless, and unenforceable for many years to come, until it's settled.
JUST IMAGINE THE BATTERY OF LAWYERS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL ASSIGN TO THIS CASE. NO STONE WILL GO UNTURNED, AND NO COURT DECISION, OR LAW, WILL GO UNTWISTED.

[SHOOTALL]

Well it could change in nov. 2010 if enough Americand get pizzed enough to vote for the way it should be and not what we have .

[mcwoodduck]

It would be nice if they would but, I have lost a lot of faith in the American voter over the years. In the mean time, Arizona is catching hell on the news media and suits have already been filed.

Why are the states not filing suits against the Governemnt.  
Immagration is the law of the land and once a person is found to be here illegally ICE is supose to be called.
I recall states yelling at the Federal Government in the 70's and 80's about the cost of inforcing federal law at state levels and most states said screw it.
Now the cost of informent have gone down to the cost society has to pay for medical, housing, education, and the lack of tax revinue.
I think we should be happy that the federal government is saying that the State of Az does not have to follow federal law.  If that is true than all federal laws are up for grabs as to what ones we want to follow or not.  
What I want to know is why are not a group of Governers not charging the President, as cheif law enforcement officer, with violation of his oath of office in not up holding the laws of the land?

[Dee]

Which president would you start with duck? They have been violating the Constitution and Bill of Rights for decades. Our government has become dysfunctional to the point of not even making any sense. Remember when California voted against educating illegals and their state supreme court over ruled a unanimous statewide vote, and overthrew the people?
Everyone is getting fired up about Arizona passing this into law, and I agree, but I don't believe the U.S. government will allow it regardless of it being both Constitutional, and regardless of states rights which have been a joke since Abraham Lincoln invaded the southern states with the Army.

[mcwoodduck]

Well, no time like the present.
And yes while Lincoln kept the Union together, the result was having rights transfered from states to the federal government.
And Maybe we should have started with Lincoln when he suspended Habis Corpus.
Maybe who ever was in charge of the country in the late 70's should have stood up to the governers and cut off federal funding, arrested a governer or two for not up holding federal law.  But I can not see Carter Sending Federal Marshals to arrest Jerry (Moonbeam) Brown for telling the CA state police (Cal Hwy Patrol) to not uphold laws.  The same as I do not see Oama sending Marshals to Arrest Arnold if he signs the law legalizing pot in the state.
By allowing states to pick and choose what laws they will and will not follow it makes all laws up for grabs and meaningless.  We are no longer the rule of law we are a dictatorship.
And yes I was one that voiced my opinion loudly about Prop 187.  The illegals, while I understand they want to come here to make a better life for them selves they have brought a lot of problems with them and are forever going to be 2nd class humans in our society.
There are better Ideas of Guest workers programs that will have them paying taxes, filling jobs that are not wanted (and based on unemployment should limit and at time reduce the number of guest workers)  They should be finger printed, Have DNA taken and explain to them that any law they break will be punished at 2X what it is for a Citizen.  if they sign up as a guest worker they will pay taxes, be able to get insurance, and will pay for education of thier kids.  Any child born here under the guest worker program will not be a citizen of the US but will be fast tracked to citizenship if they choose to be one when 18 and renounce all other citizenships.  Dual Citenship after 18 is BS.  Pick one.

[Dee]

;Well duck you threw a lot down there in that last post. I can't really argue with most of it, and the finer points that I do have a little different slant aren't even worth mentioning. I think we're pretty much shoulder to shoulder on most all.

[mcwoodduck]

 

[Victor3]

 mcwoodduck,

 Your mention of Habeas Corpus got me thinking about what might happen if they enforce the new law...

 When a police officer asks a suspected illegal for proof of citizenship, isn't he going to have to mirandize ("you have the right to remain silent...") the individual? Seems to me he would.

 Suspect decides to remain silent, is arrested and gets a lawyer (or Public Defender).

 Lawyer demands a Writ of Habeas Corpus and judge releases suspect (maybe with the pressure of jail overcrowding in mind) with a promise to appear at a future date so suspect can 'gather documentation.'

 Suspect goes on his merry way, never shows up for his court date and avoids future contact with law enforcement. What will happen if he's detained again is anyone's guess at this point.

 I know the ananlogy breaks down, but the above is somewhat similar to what's already happening with aliens on school/work visas who are caught in the US after they expire.

 Also (someone tell me if I'm wrong here), isn't ICE the (Federal) agency that will have to handle the actual deportations?

 Sounds like it could become an expensive clusterfudge for AZ's law enforcement, court and prison systems. The state already has big time budget problems.

 Like I mentioned before, $$$ may be the downfall of this one.

[Dee]

Speaking from 20 years experience, most ALL states REQUIRE that you provide police proper identification on request, and it is NOT a part of the miranda warning.

[Mikey]

Dee:  Thank you for that last clarification.  It seems that folks don't quite understand that the police have the authority to ask you to identify yourself and that they can take you to the 'station' to verify your identidy if you are not carrying some form of identification. 

Hey, I got profiled last week, they (police) were looking for a older man (mid-60s to 70s) whose description I met; one officer approached me and asked if I had any identification, I said yes and showed him my identification and that was all there was to it.  I really love these idiots who leave their homes without any form of id at all and without it I feel the police have all the authority they need to detain you until you prove who you are.

And I just love all the anti-Arizona nonsense that has been generated by this new law.  The people of Arizona have the right to defend themselves and this law is a good start.  If Governor Brewer's actions cause others to kickstart something similar then so much the better.  If the jerkoffs in san franciso or la want to boycott Arizona then fine, who needs them - personally I think tourism in Arizona will improve now that people know they will be safer if the crimes committed by illegal immigrants is reduced (see the kalifornia figures on the numbers and percentages of crimes committed by illegal aliens) and they are the ones who will spend their money in Arizona, not the liberal idiots in kalifornika.

And as the son of a immigrant who was born on the boat in new york harbor I think those who immigrated legally to this country should be wholly whizzed and totally insulted by those who come here illegally and demand the rights and benefits earned by those who have legally become citizens.

And please pardon the hay outta me but I thought 'that the constitution applies to those who are citizens of this country or to those who come here legally, not the criminals who sneak in under the fence.

[Dee]

Well said Mikey.

[billy_56081]

DEE areyou watching FOX right now your favorite wishy washy politician Mc Can was just on talking about Arizona protecting its borders. OMG he is something else. Flip Flop FLip Flop.

[beerbelly]

.I see on the morning news that a rep from Texas is going to introduce an immigration bill like the one in Arizona, when they meet in January. Maybe it will continue to spread! I sue hope so.
                                      Beerbelly

[magooch]

If Arizona had just said that we're going to stop the beaners to see if they're carrying an illegal gun, the lefties would have been fine with that.  Well, maybe not.  Anyway, stopping cars to see if there's any open booze in there has been done for years.  Hey, why not tell the feds and anyone else who might care that you're checking the illegals to make sure they are receiving food stamps, rent subsidy and wellfare?

[mcwoodduck]

mcwoodduck,

 Your mention of Habeas Corpus got me thinking about what might happen if they enforce the new law...

 When a police officer asks a suspected illegal for proof of citizenship, isn't he going to have to mirandize ("you have the right to remain silent...") the individual? Seems to me he would.

 Suspect decides to remain silent, is arrested and gets a lawyer (or Public Defender).

 Lawyer demands a Writ of Habeas Corpus and judge releases suspect (maybe with the pressure of jail overcrowding in mind) with a promise to appear at a future date so suspect can 'gather documentation.'

 Suspect goes on his merry way, never shows up for his court date and avoids future contact with law enforcement. What will happen if he's detained again is anyone's guess at this point.

 I know the ananlogy breaks down, but the above is somewhat similar to what's already happening with aliens on school/work visas who are caught in the US after they expire.

 Also (someone tell me if I'm wrong here), isn't ICE the (Federal) agency that will have to handle the actual deportations?

 Sounds like it could become an expensive clusterfudge for AZ's law enforcement, court and prison systems. The state already has big time budget problems.

 Like I mentioned before, $$$ may be the downfall of this one.

Yes and no.
let's say you or i are doing something stupid in Az that brings us the the attention of the police.
If we have nothing on us to show we are who we say we are, then the police will bring us in.  assume we were out jogging and do not have ID at the time.
We pleade that we are citizens under the new law and have legally entered Az.  We would be set free with a court date to prove we are citizens.
f we do not show up for the court date. then there is a failure to appear and if we are arrested again .... finger prints will tell who we are adn we will not be allowed out again.  If we are ilegally in the tate of Az then we will be handed over to ICE to be deported, fined, or imprisoned.  It does not cost a lot to house a prisoner with sherif Joe.  in the mean time the state can go after the people that employed the illegal and recoup costs from them.  As the employers are fined jobs will dry up and illegals will leave and head for other states where they can find employment.

[BBF]

It amuses me to no end..hmm well no, there is an end.
When I hear the likes of Hannity,Beck and sundry Others on both side of the issue bringing in the biggest scape goat of the last several centuries namely (Nazi)Germany,  as the nasty example of a Police State demanding "Your Papers" As in above posts, that is nothing new in the US*, nor Canada and certainly not in Europe then and now.


*Some of you OF's might remember beeing asked for your Draft Card when checked for whatever reason.

[Dee]

That is what Oklahoma did. They can't find a job, a place to live, or travel safely in Oklahoma, so the incentive to stay was lost, and they left. THEY CAME BACK HERE!