Author Topic: 7.62X25 vs. 9MM penetration. (Read 17281 times)

NRAJOE · « **on:** November 19, 2003, 08:28:16 AM »

7.62X25 on the left
9MM on the right
Which would you rather have?

plateshooter · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2003, 01:46:35 PM »

I would rather have the 9mm, its easier on the targets. :lol: Are the 9mm conversions still available for the CZ52?

Robert · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2003, 03:56:08 PM »

So would most of our troops that get sent into action with the stupid 9mm. I got rid of my 9 a long time ago.

NRAJOE · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2003, 06:17:08 PM »

Quote from: plateshooter

I would rather have the 9mm, its easier on the targets. :lol: Are the 9mm conversions still available for the CZ52?

Yes they are but I don't know why anyonewould want one. Half the fun is shooting the 7.62X25 cartridge...9mm's are a dime a dozen! :eek:

1911crazy · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:35:54 AM »

S.Sumner & Mikey posted about this a while back they were talking about the velocity of the 7.62x25 being as fast as the 357 magnum. While not being the same bullet weight your picture says it all?? BigBill

Cheaper Than Dirt has Sellier & Bellot ammo in 7.62x25 cheap. Hey I'm the Frugal one!!!!!!!! Shop smart buy more!!!!!! More bang for our buck too!!!

Mikey · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:20:24 AM »

Nutz - did I miss a picture??? Dang! The guys are right, 9mms are a dime a dozen but the 7.62 is a blaster. Make certain anyone shooting next to you on the range has ear protection on or stands a bit behind ya - them 7.62s have a'concussive' report. Doancha jus luv it. Mikey.

NRAJOE · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2003, 11:17:28 AM »

Yes I do! :wink: :grin:

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:17:40 AM »

Actually, I would rather have a .45 ACP. Seems we went through this all during/after the Mora uprising...

-Kees-

NRAJOE · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:32:37 AM »

This was a comparison on small caliber...the .45 is a great caliber, I have an arsenal refinished Ballester/Molina and love it!

Some people prefer smaller calibers. :grin:

1911crazy · « **Reply #9 on:** November 26, 2003, 02:24:58 AM »

I just ordered 7.62x25 ammo to shoot up from CTD I haven't shot it yet but hope to soon if I can get my kid to put the rifles down and have a handgun shoot someday. BigBill

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** November 26, 2003, 04:00:17 AM »

keesvw2002: The Mora uprising identified the inadequacies of the 38 Colt cartridge (I believe) as a satisfactory military cartridge when they failed to stop hopped up indiginous warriors who had prepared themselves for close in bloodletting. These guys were not about to be stopped by minor calibers, period. The 7.62x25 is a much different story.

Winston Churchill used a broomhandle Mauser Model 96 during his engagements in South Africa and wrote home to his mother after one engagement that he had stood 30 meters from where the enemy had massed in preparation for attack. Now, these were, as were the Moros, indigenous warriors ready for close quarters combat with edged weapons and mentally prepared for that kind of bloodletting. Churchill stated in his letter that he fired 10 shots, killing 9 and wounding 1, then recharged in an instant and this time his (my, he wrote) aim was better. That says a heck of a lot more about the 7.62x25 than it does about the 38 Colt cartridge.

I can personally attest to the effectiveness of this cartridge in Southeast Asia. Don't get me wrong, I like my 45s, but the Tokarev and it's nasty little cartridge are nothing to shy away from. One item on my wish list is an American made Tokarev, with better and adjustable sights, a longer slide option, and a 1911 style slide safety. I forget who just developed a 32 caliber case based on the 380, to take a 60 gn 32 acp bullet to 1200'/sec, but that doesn't even duplicate the old 7.65 or 30 Luger, which is an ok cartridge but underpowered compared to the 7.62x25. Seems like some designers are headed back toward the lightweight, fast moving cartridges, and I just hope they don't forget which ones came first.

Actually, many folks consider the 7.62x25 to be the first 'magnum' cartridge. From a Tokarev that 85 grain bullet moves to 1400'/sec, and a bit faster from a CZ52, and far exceeded anything in its day, and for a long time after. There are some excellent reloads for that cartridge and some nice soft point .308 diameter bullets in the right weight range that would make it an even better defensive round, as well as one good enough for game up to the size of coyote. I'm trying to find a set of dies for that cartridge now. HTH. Mikey.

Robert · « **Reply #11 on:** November 26, 2003, 05:17:39 AM »

But it comes in one of those strange round containers.
Also, I just found some real nice 85 gr soft-point round-nose bullets by Sierra. All I could find before were 100 & 110 gr and they work, but these 85's should be closer to spec. Also 90 gr. Hornady XTP's work well.

kevin · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2003, 02:22:25 PM »

Mikey, the cartrige that is based on the .380 is the 32 naa, and after reading about it it sure is a fast motor scooter,

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2003, 05:02:15 AM »

kevin: yep, that 32 NAA is sure a fast motor scooter and may well be the most effective pocket rocket cartridge to yet be deisgned for those small pocket pistols, but it is designed to take the 60 gn XTP bullet at 1200'/sec and although that moves out quickly and may well be an effective round, it simply does not compare in power to the 7.62x25mm with muzzle energies in the 500+'/lb and 357 magnum range. Even the older 7.65 or 30 Luger cartridge with a 93 gn bullet at 1280'sec would be a better choice if there were any pocket rockets designed to handle that cartridge but for now it sure looks like the 32 NAA might be a winner. Mikey.

CaptainRW · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2010, 01:21:49 PM »

Quote from: Mikey on November 26, 2003, 04:00:17 AM

keesvw2002: The Mora uprising identified the inadequacies of the 38 Colt cartridge (I believe) as a satisfactory military cartridge when they failed to stop hopped up indiginous warriors who had prepared themselves for close in bloodletting. These guys were not about to be stopped by minor calibers, period. The 7.62x25 is a much different story.

Winston Churchill used a broomhandle Mauser Model 96 during his engagements in South Africa and wrote home to his mother after one engagement that he had stood 30 meters from where the enemy had massed in preparation for attack. Now, these were, as were the Moros, indigenous warriors ready for close quarters combat with edged weapons and mentally prepared for that kind of bloodletting. Churchill stated in his letter that he fired 10 shots, killing 9 and wounding 1, then recharged in an instant and this time his (my, he wrote) aim was better. That says a heck of a lot more about the 7.62x25 than it does about the 38 Colt cartridge.

I can personally attest to the effectiveness of this cartridge in Southeast Asia. Don't get me wrong, I like my 45s, but the Tokarev and it's nasty little cartridge are nothing to shy away from. One item on my wish list is an American made Tokarev, with better and adjustable sights, a longer slide option, and a 1911 style slide safety. I forget who just developed a 32 caliber case based on the 380, to take a 60 gn 32 acp bullet to 1200'/sec, but that doesn't even duplicate the old 7.65 or 30 Luger, which is an ok cartridge but underpowered compared to the 7.62x25. Seems like some designers are headed back toward the lightweight, fast moving cartridges, and I just hope they don't forget which ones came first.

Actually, many folks consider the 7.62x25 to be the first 'magnum' cartridge. From a Tokarev that 85 grain bullet moves to 1400'/sec, and a bit faster from a CZ52, and far exceeded anything in its day, and for a long time after. There are some excellent reloads for that cartridge and some nice soft point .308 diameter bullets in the right weight range that would make it an even better defensive round, as well as one good enough for game up to the size of coyote. I'm trying to find a set of dies for that cartridge now. HTH. Mikey.

Sorry to "bump" an old thread, but one BIG error here, The Moro Warriors, where on drugs, well jungle mushrooms to be exact.. NOT the same as Mr Churchill faced.. That's not a far comparison, the Moro didn't know enough to die, because of the drugs in there system, so they dropped if knocked over by a 45 colt long or 45/70 or from blood lose from multiple 38 or 34-40 Krag hits..

1911crazy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2010, 02:21:11 PM »

This is an older post, god my posts are from 2003...

Didn't these warriors tie sticks to there legs so they couldn't be knocked down and thats why the 45acp was great for the knockdown power in short distances.

But someday i may put down my 9mm mak and carry a something in 7,62x25 tokarev because this little buzz'n round sure does have some spunk to it. I heard there was a "rumor" that cz offered a CZ83 in 7,62x25 Tok but i haven't seen or found it yet. They said its in europe only. But i don't see it anywhere on the CZ website. I would like to have a more modern gun to carry in 7,62x25 tok.

S.S. · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2010, 04:50:20 PM »

That .32NAA to me looks like an old idea too,
The 7mm Baby Nambu. Most Ideas circle back around
eventually. Ever fire an 88 Gr. FMJ from a 9mm?
Velocity and penetration would be close. But by having all
this penetration you waste a lot of energy transfer
out the back of your target. Not a good thing when your
target intends to "scratch and bite".
One thing for sure though. It is hard to hide from a 7.62x25.
It will find it's way through most unarmored hiding places.

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2010, 05:00:08 PM »

Check out this link:http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mmJHPs.html

Love my Tok!!!!

Ron

torpedoman · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2010, 05:18:59 PM »

gotta love it when folks lay down their 44 mags and come over to ask what kind of cannon your shooting. the 762.25 will penetrate 4 wet denver phone books and get lost in the log behind them the 9 wont make one

torpedoman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 12, 2010, 05:28:09 PM »

Quote from: S.S. on August 12, 2010, 04:50:20 PM

That .32NAA to me looks like an old idea too,
The 7mm Baby Nambu. Most Ideas circle back around
eventually. Ever fire an 88 Gr. FMJ from a 9mm?
Velocity and penetration would be close. But by having all
this penetration you waste a lot of energy transfer
out the back of your target. Not a good thing when your
target intends to "scratch and bite".
One thing for sure though. It is hard to hide from a 7.62x25.
It will find it's way through most unarmored hiding places.

I carry the 762x25 when berry picking in bear country because i rather make a little hole clean thru than put 45's or 9's in the fat layer.

CaptainRW · « **Reply #20 on:** August 13, 2010, 04:54:12 AM »

I'm not a 9mm fan, I used to carry a .45 officers ACP for a long time, did the M9 in the service when they switched. carried and used Tok's on & off till I got Yugo Tok.. LOVE it, less recoil then the .45, better pen then either .45 or 9mm.. To much? can be. So I carry 4 rounds of magsafe and 5 JHP's in it (Yugo's have +1 mag's) asn a extra clip with 4 JHP and 4 FMJ.. With 7.62x25mm the variety of rounds is a bit limited still, BUT is growing, as are the guns chambered fro it. There are some new ones this year....

Yes, the 45ACP was designed to have similar ballistics to the old 45 colt long in knock down ability.

I found this site with a google search.. :-)

S.S. · « **Reply #21 on:** August 13, 2010, 02:58:56 PM »

Quote from: torpedoman on August 12, 2010, 05:28:09 PM

Quote from: S.S. on August 12, 2010, 04:50:20 PM
That .32NAA to me looks like an old idea too,
The 7mm Baby Nambu. Most Ideas circle back around
eventually. Ever fire an 88 Gr. FMJ from a 9mm?
Velocity and penetration would be close. But by having all
this penetration you waste a lot of energy transfer
out the back of your target. Not a good thing when your
target intends to "scratch and bite".
One thing for sure though. It is hard to hide from a 7.62x25.
It will find it's way through most unarmored hiding places.

I carry the 762x25 when berry picking in bear country because i rather make a little hole clean thru than put 45's or 9's in the fat layer.

Saw a black bear fall to a .30 cal Broom handle mauser.
He fell right after mauling the guys 2 dogs and his Saddle horse.
He was on the horse at the time. Lost a lot of blood and some use
of his right leg but he survived. 7.62x25 is not bear medicine...
Good Luck with that

1911crazy · « **Reply #22 on:** August 13, 2010, 03:08:57 PM »

As we sliced up the bear we shot a while back i found a perfect 30cal bullet in his @ss, the top of his hind leg in the fat/meat part. I called my brother right away to be certain how many shots were fired. Then i took a loser look and it was healed over. So someone took a shot to hit him in the butt and it got away anyway. If the fat/meat can stop a 30cal rifle bullet i have no faith in big handguns or not that much faith in them. Maybe the 7,62x25 tok is the one to carry for some? I don't carry a handgun anymore when in bear country. I only carry my 338wm. I been rethinking about what bullet weights to use in my handguns now too. I'm thinking at least a 270 JSP in my 44mag. I do carry a handgun out to the outhouse at night. But most of the time its been my 1911/45acp with winchester silver tips.

I shot one bear that was well under 25yds but i think it was more in feet than yards. There's no time to think when there on the ground with you. You just place your first shot were it needs to go to do the most damage. My 338wm with its 225gr bullet (winchester super X ammo) did its thing and exited blowing out 3 or 4 ribs on the exit too. But in that kind of a close or closer situation with a handgun makes us rethink it?? What are your chances if we shoot thru its eye to hit its brain or thew its roof of the mouth with a handgun?

At first i was worried because i didn't have my older brother as backup anymore but my oldest son is as good as a shot my brother was with an '06 so i have to trust him as backup. I've seen the bear paws the size of my 13" sorrel boots in three different places in the mountains. These aren't cubs nor do i want to face them with any handgun.

CaptainRW · « **Reply #23 on:** August 13, 2010, 04:04:32 PM »

Quote from: S.S. on August 13, 2010, 02:58:56 PM

Saw a black bear fall to a .30 cal Broom handle mauser.
He fell right after mauling the guys 2 dogs and his Saddle horse.
He was on the horse at the time. Lost a lot of blood and some use
of his right leg but he survived. 7.62x25 is not bear medicine...
Good Luck with that

.30 Mauser is NOT 7.62x25.. it's the predecessor and alot less power and velocity...

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #24 on:** August 13, 2010, 04:47:54 PM »

Quote from: NRAJOE on November 19, 2003, 08:28:16 AM

7.62X25 on the left
9MM on the right
Which would you rather have?

Let us say for the sake of argument, that the average black bear skull is as strong as this piece of steel. So you come on a black bear who is walking up to you as a piece of meat on the dinner menu. 8 shots of 7.62x25 is going to make an impression on the bear. I watched a 400 pound'er roll over from a 158 grain 357 mag. A clean pass through. Large Griz, Brown Bear, Polar... maybe not......

Ron

mrussel · « **Reply #25 on:** August 13, 2010, 08:07:27 PM »

Quote from: GrassLakeRon on August 13, 2010, 04:47:54 PM

Quote from: NRAJOE on November 19, 2003, 08:28:16 AM
7.62X25 on the left
9MM on the right
Which would you rather have?

Let us say for the sake of argument, that the average black bear skull is as strong as this piece of steel. So you come on a black bear who is walking up to you as a piece of meat on the dinner menu. 8 shots of 7.62x25 is going to make an impression on the bear. I watched a 400 pound'er roll over from a 158 grain 357 mag. A clean pass through. Large Griz, Brown Bear, Polar... maybe not......

Ron

You would be surprised at how survivable a brain injury is,at least in the short term,especially if the hole is small. Now I'm not saying a bear with a 30cal hole in his brain is going to heal right up,not even that he will survive long. In fact,from what I know,I wouldn't be at all surprised if I shot him with something like a 7.65x25 or a 45acp and it killed him. Then again,I also wouldn't be particularly surprised if he tore my face off and started chewing on my now detached leg,before he finally realized he had been given a mortal wound.

I dont buy all this stuff about "If your caliber is bigger than this its a sure kill and if its smaller it will shrug it off". Ive heard stories of bears that have been shot with some very substantial rounds and still kept coming. Ive also heard stories about bears killed with smaller rounds. I have no doubt both are true. Its just like the way a 22LR IS deadly,and can certainly kill someone (and thus needs to be afforded the respect of any other caliber firearm) Still,you wouldnt count on that to stop an armed man in your house unless it was all you had. Similarly,if all you have,either becuase its all you own or because its whats close at hand when its needed,is something in 45acp or something in 7.65x25 then its certainly better than nothing. Maybe it will kill it. Maybe you will be like a porcupine and cause enough pain that it will decide that its just not work it and leave. Then again,sometimes the porcupine gets flipped over on his back and eaten. I wouldn't want to count on it,but if it was all I had,I certainly wouldn't want to be without it.

Just understand what you have,how likely it is to be effective and act accordingly. If it was my girlfreind being attacked by a bear,then yea,Im going to unload the magazine full of hardballs on it,and hope for the best. If it was me being attacked,I would do the same. If it was some guy I just met out in the woods five minutes before,I'll act from the understanding that the gun I have probably isn't going to be able to stop a bear,and make my getaway while hes chewing on an arm. Id love to play the hero,but Im not suicidal.

CaptainRW · « **Reply #26 on:** August 14, 2010, 05:27:54 AM »

I have shot a bear, in the head with a .45ACp in Maine about 15 years ago.. 1st 2 shots at around 10-15 yards I knew hit it,in the head as there was blood, but it kept coming after my friend, me and my dog (collie, NOT a hunting dog).
The next 6 shots hit the neck/chest area and that was that.
Looking after and with a game warden even later, we found that the 1st 2 shots had hit it in the skull and bounced off at angles. It did take a good size piece of flesh with it and left a flap of bloody flesh/skin hanging, bet it gave him a head ache.. but was a long ways from stopping it. The shots where a mix, every other of Winchester FMJ and silver tips..

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #27 on:** August 14, 2010, 12:45:54 PM »

Amazing. I have seen guys kill whitetails with M1 carbines. I knew a guy that killed a black bear with one at 50 yards. I peeved bear is a whole other story in it's self. This little cartridge might not be the best thing, but It is a whole lot better then nothing.

Ron

S.S. · « **Reply #28 on:** August 14, 2010, 02:17:30 PM »

Don't get me wrong, I like the cartridge a lot, Just don't want a bear
crapping me out in the woods in a little pile cause I pissed him off
with one..

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #29 on:** August 14, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »

I hope you guys watch what I do. The other week, on Handguns on OLN they had various handguns and penetration tests. Towards the end Gary James had a test between the 9mm and the 7.62 x 25mm on a Kevlar helmet. The 7.62 went threw one side and was lodged in the other. The 9mm, no dice. I have a hard time believing that anything able to pierce German armor, modern body armor and such, not make an impression on a black bear. As I said before, bigger bear, no way, but the black bears around me....... I have no issues carrying it. Almost 357 mag ft/lbs........ I think someone should do a 45 acp / 7.62 x 25mm penetration test on steel.

Ron