7.62X25 vs. 9MM penetration.

[CaptainRW]

I hope you guys watch what I do.  The other week, on Handguns on OLN they had various handguns and penetration tests.  Towards the end Gary James had a test between the 9mm and the 7.62 x 25mm on a Kevlar helmet.  The 7.62 went threw one side and was lodged in the other.  The 9mm, no dice.  I have a hard time believing that anything able to pierce German armor, modern body armor and such, not make an impression on a black bear.  As I said before, bigger bear, no way, but the black bears around me....... I have no issues carrying it.  Almost 357 mag ft/lbs........ I think someone should do a 45 acp / 7.62 x 25mm penetration test on steel.

Ron

There is a video online that does a test with varied calibers, including 9mm, 45acp and 7.62x25mm vs the current Kevlar helmets.. 7.62x25 is the only one to fully go thru (both sides) some really hot .357 mag hand loads where able to punch a "divit" out of the inside that punched the water jug he had the helmet on. BUT the bullets all stopped or lodged in the side of the helmet, except the Tok rounds...

[1911crazy]

Which military surplus Tokarev is the best one?  Is one better than the other in quality?  I have a few and will shoot them soon after reading this post.

First at my age i'm not built for running nor speed now i'm older.  I love the thrill of the hunt for blackbear much more fun than hunting anything else.  I've seen the 338wm and the '06 just toast them when there hit right.  I've been taught not to hit them in the skull because the bullets will bounce off.  My uncle told me when i was first going blackbear hunting with my cousin to make my first shot count and hit it right or let it go.  So he mean't don't p!ss it off and make a good clean kill if possible or let it go. I've had more fun just being close to the puke smoking in the apple orchard when they pig out and we spooked them.  Its funny when they don't know your there they can be noisy as hell but when they know your there there quiet going thru the brush/woods.  I have no clue how they do it.  I've had then within 10' from me in the high grass it walked right up on me then a little bird got in the tree over me and sang the tune of "go back there's danger here"  I was on the upper end corner of an apple orchard and that bear went down around and cross to the upper side and up behind me staying out of sight the whole time.  There smarter than we think.

I've seen an old farmer shoot his 30-30 at 144yds and put the same bullet thru the same hole.  That was the distance from his front porch to the edge of his fence line.  The old man was that good.  One day while hunting with his buddy tracking a bear in the snow they caught up to it.  His buddy shot and the gun jammed so the old farmer took over with his 30-30 and all 6 shots were fired and the bear dropped 10' infront of them.  His buddy said run, run the whole time and the old man said hell run, shoot.  After the old man said he'd never go bear hunting again he's too old now.

Didn't a guy shoot a bear that broke into his shed with a 410 shotgun and drop it on the spot a while back?

[CaptainRW]

Which military surplus Tokarev is the best one?  Is one better than the other in quality?  I have a few and will shoot them soon after reading this post.

First at my age i'm not built for running nor speed now i'm older.  I love the thrill of the hunt for blackbear much more fun than hunting anything else.  I've seen the 338wm and the '06 just toast them when there hit right.  I've been taught not to hit them in the skull because the bullets will bounce off.  My uncle told me when i was first going blackbear hunting with my cousin to make my first shot count and hit it right or let it go.  So he mean't don't p!ss it off and make a good clean kill if possible or let it go. I've had more fun just being close to the puke smoking in the apple orchard when they pig out and we spooked them.  Its funny when they don't know your there they can be noisy as hell but when they know your there there quiet going thru the brush/woods.  I have no clue how they do it.  I've had then within 10' from me in the high grass it walked right up on me then a little bird got in the tree over me and sang the tune of "go back there's danger here"  I was on the upper end corner of an apple orchard and that bear went down around and cross to the upper side and up behind me staying out of sight the whole time.  There smarter than we think.

I've seen an old farmer shoot his 30-30 at 144yds and put the same bullet thru the same hole.  That was the distance from his front porch to the edge of his fence line.  The old man was that good.  One day while hunting with his buddy tracking a bear in the snow they caught up to it.  His buddy shot and the gun jammed so the old farmer took over with his 30-30 and all 6 shots were fired and the bear dropped 10' infront of them.  His buddy said run, run the whole time and the old man said hell run, shoot.  After the old man said he'd never go bear hunting again he's too old now.

Didn't a guy shoot a bear that broke into his shed with a 410 shotgun and drop it on the spot a while back?

My personal fav is the Yugo, I carry one and my wife has one as well. They carry and extra shot over every other Tok and the grip is a tad longer, making it more comfy to hold. Extra mags can be a bit of an issue, tho not as bad as people make it out to be. They are in current production with the original maker of the gun, the same one that added the best safety a Tok gets. One other, state side company is geared up to make them and they can also be made with a CZ52 mag and a little dremal tool work... SOG has them for under $200, including hand picked, comes with a holster and cleaning rod..

http://www.southernohiogun.com/0on-sale/yugo-md57-tt-tokarev-pistol.html

[mrussel]

I have shot a bear, in the head with a .45ACp in Maine about 15 years ago.. 1st 2 shots at around 10-15 yards I knew hit it,in the head as there was blood, but it kept coming after my friend, me and my dog (collie, NOT a hunting dog).
 The next 6 shots hit the neck/chest area and that was that.
 Looking after and with a game warden even later, we found that the 1st 2 shots had hit it in the skull and bounced off at angles. It did take a good size piece of flesh with it and left a flap of bloody flesh/skin hanging, bet it gave him a head ache.. but was a long ways from stopping it. The shots where a mix, every other of Winchester FMJ and silver tips..

 Which were more effective? My money is on the hardball. In fact,that's what I carry when I'm more worried about 4 legged predators than 2 legged ones. I am currently shopping for a 44magnum though. As your experience shows,the statement that a 45ACP is ineffective against a bear is wrong. It worked,and presumably saved your life. It also shows that a 45 auto is NOT the gun you want,unless that's all you have. One question comes to mind when you start talking penetration. Would a 180 grain with higher velocity be better than a 230grain? Was the FMJ you loaded the standard 230 grain?

[mrussel]

I hope you guys watch what I do.  The other week, on Handguns on OLN they had various handguns and penetration tests.  Towards the end Gary James had a test between the 9mm and the 7.62 x 25mm on a Kevlar helmet.  The 7.62 went threw one side and was lodged in the other.  The 9mm, no dice.  I have a hard time believing that anything able to pierce German armor, modern body armor and such, not make an impression on a black bear.  As I said before, bigger bear, no way, but the black bears around me....... I have no issues carrying it.  Almost 357 mag ft/lbs........ I think someone should do a 45 acp / 7.62 x 25mm penetration test on steel.

Ron

There is a video online that does a test with varied calibers, including 9mm, 45acp and 7.62x25mm vs the current Kevlar helmets.. 7.62x25 is the only one to fully go thru (both sides) some really hot .357 mag hand loads where able to punch a "divit" out of the inside that punched the water jug he had the helmet on. BUT the bullets all stopped or lodged in the side of the helmet, except the Tok rounds...

 Makes you wonder about how a 327 federal would do? For that matter,if you want alot of penetration from a handgun,the idea of a wildcat made from a 357 maximum necked down to 32 comes to mind.

[mrussel]

I hope you guys watch what I do.  The other week, on Handguns on OLN they had various handguns and penetration tests.  Towards the end Gary James had a test between the 9mm and the 7.62 x 25mm on a Kevlar helmet.  The 7.62 went threw one side and was lodged in the other.  The 9mm, no dice.  I have a hard time believing that anything able to pierce German armor, modern body armor and such, not make an impression on a black bear.  As I said before, bigger bear, no way, but the black bears around me....... I have no issues carrying it.  Almost 357 mag ft/lbs........ I think someone should do a 45 acp / 7.62 x 25mm penetration test on steel.

Ron

 My guess is the 45acp is going to spatter on steel and the higher velocity,as we have seen is going to make nice holes. Thats actually a good thing. For the typical uses of a 45,that's what you want. If I want penetration,I could grab my Mosin Nagant and load up a stripper full of the Czech surplus steel core rounds I got in the big spam can. Of course those will go right through the bad guy,through the brick fireplace behind him,through the truck parked out in the street,through the neighbors fireplace and right through their 6mo old daughter. The 45s will stop in the badguy.

 Of course that brings up why the whole armor piercing handgun ammo thing is pointless. (actually,some stuff that might be classed armor piercing might be just the ticket when being charged by that enraged bear when all you have is a 1911) If I really did go nuts some day,and decide to go shooting people in light body armor,I would grab a rifle. It wouldnt even matter if I grabbed the soft nosed hunting rounds,its going to go right through. For that matter I wouldnt want to be wearing a level II vest (ok,I guess I WOULD want to be wearing a level two vest,if that was all that was available,its better than being hit WITHOUT one) if I were shot with something like a 500S&W.

[CaptainRW]

I have shot a bear, in the head with a .45ACp in Maine about 15 years ago.. 1st 2 shots at around 10-15 yards I knew hit it,in the head as there was blood, but it kept coming after my friend, me and my dog (collie, NOT a hunting dog).
 The next 6 shots hit the neck/chest area and that was that.
 Looking after and with a game warden even later, we found that the 1st 2 shots had hit it in the skull and bounced off at angles. It did take a good size piece of flesh with it and left a flap of bloody flesh/skin hanging, bet it gave him a head ache.. but was a long ways from stopping it. The shots where a mix, every other of Winchester FMJ and silver tips..

 Which were more effective? My money is on the hardball. In fact,that's what I carry when I'm more worried about 4 legged predators than 2 legged ones. I am currently shopping for a 44magnum though. As your experience shows,the statement that a 45ACP is ineffective against a bear is wrong. It worked,and presumably saved your life. It also shows that a 45 auto is NOT the gun you want,unless that's all you have. One question comes to mind when you start talking penetration. Would a 180 grain with higher velocity be better than a 230grain? Was the FMJ you loaded the standard 230 grain?

Round one was the Silver tip with a steel ball bearing in the hollow and a bit of wax to hold it.. the 2nd was a standard 230 FMJ.. both bounced off the skull.. Don't know what one did more "damage" but both where superficial in the bigger picture... neither stopped it, the other 6, 3 of each, did..to the body/chest & neck.
  At this point, I was at a point, I was not going to stop shooting till needed to put the next clip.. and funny, every time I hit it, it moved.. so...... :-) Moral of the story, 45 to bear head in Maine,  no good.. aim for center of mass and keep shooting....

[CaptainRW]

The problem with self defense shooting, is you might not know what they target is, till you fire.. It's easier to make a 7.62x25mm NOT over penetrate then to make a 9mm (or 45) penetrate more...

[mrussel]

The problem with self defense shooting, is you might not know what they target is, till you fire.. It's easier to make a 7.62x25mm NOT over penetrate then to make a 9mm (or 45) penetrate more...

 The question is,will the 7.62x25 every be as effective as the 45acp. For the sake of discussion I think its safe to assume that each will use the most effective ammo for the situation. Looking at the numbers,they carry similar energies. Im seeing 7.62 ranging from 400s up to 560. Ive seen 45acp loads that range from 400s up to around 550,so its pretty close. The more I think about it,and now non expanding solid bullets,which in fact would sometimes qualify as armor piercing are used for big game,it wouldn't surprise me if the tok was as or more effective than the 45 against something like a bear. (Although if I WERE to run into a bear,I would rather have a rifle or a semi auto shotgun with slugs than either of those) The more I see what that round is capable of though,the more I want one. I think I know what the next gun Im getting (well,after the gun after the next gun,next is a 44magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk)

[mrussel]

I have shot a bear, in the head with a .45ACp in Maine about 15 years ago.. 1st 2 shots at around 10-15 yards I knew hit it,in the head as there was blood, but it kept coming after my friend, me and my dog (collie, NOT a hunting dog).
 The next 6 shots hit the neck/chest area and that was that.
 Looking after and with a game warden even later, we found that the 1st 2 shots had hit it in the skull and bounced off at angles. It did take a good size piece of flesh with it and left a flap of bloody flesh/skin hanging, bet it gave him a head ache.. but was a long ways from stopping it. The shots where a mix, every other of Winchester FMJ and silver tips..

 Which were more effective? My money is on the hardball. In fact,that's what I carry when I'm more worried about 4 legged predators than 2 legged ones. I am currently shopping for a 44magnum though. As your experience shows,the statement that a 45ACP is ineffective against a bear is wrong. It worked,and presumably saved your life. It also shows that a 45 auto is NOT the gun you want,unless that's all you have. One question comes to mind when you start talking penetration. Would a 180 grain with higher velocity be better than a 230grain? Was the FMJ you loaded the standard 230 grain?

Round one was the Silver tip with a steel ball bearing in the hollow and a bit of wax to hold it.. the 2nd was a standard 230 FMJ.. both bounced off the skull.. Don't know what one did more "damage" but both where superficial in the bigger picture... neither stopped it, the other 6, 3 of each, did..to the body/chest & neck.
  At this point, I was at a point, I was not going to stop shooting till needed to put the next clip.. and funny, every time I hit it, it moved.. so...... :-) Moral of the story, 45 to bear head in Maine,  no good.. aim for center of mass and keep shooting....

 I think its safe to say that both were pretty much ineffective. I have heard people say that even if you DO penetrate the skull,they have a big head with a small brain,so your not nearly as likely to cause a immediately mortal wound by a head shot even if you assume it penetrates adequately,or so Ive been told.

[CaptainRW]

Well I can't say if a round penetrated what might have happened.. I used to carry a .45acp and was quite happy with it. I now carry a Yugo Tok, for under $200 including hand picked (both I got where un-issued, not even wear on the feed ramp)  Now, would I carry it bear hunting as a main weapon? Hello no.. I do carry it with me beekeeping, just in case... or when walking thru woods known to be bear country. I would also carry it hunting as a back-up to a rifle, again, just in case...

It is a hot little round, no doubt. Most of the nay-say-ers have more issue with it being a former commie weapon OR that it will go thru alot, for a pistol round.  Like I said ealier, use something like magsafe rounds to help with the over-pen issues... Way easier to stop a round from "going to deep" then to make one go deeper.

[mrussel]

Well I can't say if a round penetrated what might have happened.. I used to carry a .45acp and was quite happy with it. I now carry a Yugo Tok, for under $200 including hand picked (both I got where un-issued, not even wear on the feed ramp)  Now, would I carry it bear hunting as a main weapon? Hello no.. I do carry it with me beekeeping, just in case... or when walking thru woods known to be bear country. I would also carry it hunting as a back-up to a rifle, again, just in case...

It is a hot little round, no doubt. Most of the nay-say-ers have more issue with it being a former commie weapon OR that it will go thru alot, for a pistol round.  Like I said ealier, use something like magsafe rounds to help with the over-pen issues... Way easier to stop a round from "going to deep" then to make one go deeper.

  I would be worried about magsafes reducing penetration too much. What about something like a Gold Dot or an XTP? How do magsafes penetrate from a 357? Regardless of how well it works against bears,it has similar energy to a 45 which isn't bad at all against a human.

 What size is your bore? I see a 90gr .309 caliber that might work well,and if your bore is 311 or 312 there is a 100gr .312XTP (as well as some lighter ones) that might be nice to get a slower round with less penetration. In any event,the velocity should ensure very good expansion. In that vein,there is a 115 grain Speer Gold Dot in .312 diameter made for the 327 federal that might work well. You might be able to run them through a bullet sizing die if they are too big. While some people report bad results doing this on a 8x56R rifle cartridge,others say it works fine,so what I take away is,it works with some,but not with others,and in this case,your only swaging down a couple thousandths rather than a hundredth or so. As a general rule,I agree with the "Avoid handloaded ammo,becuase some overzealous prosecutor might try to make it look bad",but using a gun at all opens you up to it,and if you cant get ammo that meets your needs,you just have to chalk it up to unavoidable risk and go with it. I find it interesting that it appears to be quite a bit hotter than 327 federal which is being hyped by saying things like

   "The .327 offers more 'real-world' energy than the .357 Mag., (at least in my test), better penetration and one more shot per gun load. It does all this with substantially less recoil and noticeably less muzzle blast than the .357 Mag."

  One might argue the 7.62 tok has all that,but reloads from a detachable magazine.

 On a side note,many european 32acps actually work better with 85 or 90 grain bullets,loaded much hotter than typical American ammo.

[CaptainRW]

 I would be worried about magsafes reducing penetration too much. What about something like a Gold Dot or an XTP? 

I was a bit at first that it would be to little penetration. Now I don't have access to ballistic gel or anything like that. I have now fired a few at large watermelons and pumpkins and I can say wow.. did one thru 1/4" plywood and then a watermelon.. Still made fruit salad.. So I no longer worry, it seems to tame the over penetration issue of the normal FMJ rounds. I have not tried JHP's yet, other then for functionality in the gun.

I wish there where more options, and if I reloaded, I'm sure I would have many more options. It's on the list of things to do in the next year. I'm not sure of my bore. or what the lands/groves mike to. I have read a few places it uses a .308 to .311 bullet tho. I'm told Hornady makes an 85-grain .311" "XTP" bullet that works well in these pistols.

[mrussel]

 I would be worried about magsafes reducing penetration too much. What about something like a Gold Dot or an XTP? 

I was a bit at first that it would be to little penetration. Now I don't have access to ballistic gel or anything like that. I have now fired a few at large watermelons and pumpkins and I can say wow.. did one thru 1/4" plywood and then a watermelon.. Still made fruit salad.. So I no longer worry, it seems to tame the over penetration issue of the normal FMJ rounds. I have not tried JHP's yet, other then for functionality in the gun.

I wish there where more options, and if I reloaded, I'm sure I would have many more options. It's on the list of things to do in the next year. I'm not sure of my bore. or what the lands/groves mike to. I have read a few places it uses a .308 to .311 bullet tho. I'm told Hornady makes an 85-grain .311" "XTP" bullet that works well in these pistols.

 If your 308,I dont think you would want to use the 311. What you can do is get a piece of 00 unplated buck shot,a 1/4" dowel and a pair of calipers and a block of wood. (dont use metal romight be ds or hammers,to easy to cause major damage) Get the buck shot started in the bore,then drive it through with the hammer and the wood block. Measure the widest part with the calipers,that's the groove diameter.

[CaptainRW]

Ya, I know how to slug a bore and a bit about reloading, tho have really never done it. I do use black powder stuff quite a bit, tho less then I used to.   I had a cannon for several years.... a 12Lbs MT Pack Howitzer..

[mrussel]

Ya, I know how to slug a bore and a bit about reloading, tho have really never done it. I do use black powder stuff quite a bit, tho less then I used to.   I had a cannon for several years.... a 12Lbs MT Pack Howitzer..

 Ive always wanted a cannon. That would be fun.

[CaptainRW]

Ya, I know how to slug a bore and a bit about reloading, tho have really never done it. I do use black powder stuff quite a bit, tho less then I used to.   I had a cannon for several years.... a 12Lbs MT Pack Howitzer..

 Ive always wanted a cannon. That would be fun.

Used to fire dog food cans filled with concrete 1000+ yards.. :-)  and 2 cans filled with old roofing nails 300yrd... Ahh the joys...

[coyotejoe]

Penetration in steel and stopping power on game or men are in no way related. I once shot up an old steel  shovel. Not surprisingly a .30 carbine punched a very clean hole, as did a .22 WMR, while a .45 Colt just made a dent. But in a gunfight I'd way prefer a .45 over a .22 mag.
 I also shot up an old steel brake drum. 55 grain .223's drilled perfect little round holes even through both sides of the thick steel rim while .45/70 405 grains wouldn't even penetrate the thin steel bolt flange, just knocked the drum rolling but left only a big dent and a gray smear. I then fired both rounds into a standing dead pine tree. The .223's penetrated only about six inches while the 45/70's zipped right through the 14" trunk and left a divot on the hillside behind. Which would I prefer to face a bear? If I could be certain of a head shot I'd take the .223 but for any other shot there is no doubt it would be the 45/70.
 I think you guys made a valid point about low velocity bullets glancing off a bear's skull but it also is without dispute that, within reason, a larger caliber delivers greater stopping power. Since I mentioned the .30 carbine round, that cartridge is generally disparaged for poor stopping power even though it has a heavier bullet at much higher velocity and delivers much more energy than anything from a 7.62x25 handgun.

[CaptainRW]

coyotejoe, you have it right on, really.. You need the right mix.. not to much nor to little penetration... Now how much is to much or to little depends on the target.. That you might not know till it's time to shoot..

 Example an intruder with a gun.. .45 or 9mm with JHP might be best.. BUT that same "guy" in good body armor.. the 7.62x25mm might be best....

Really it should not be so much a caliber question, but a bullet option question. I like the x25 over 9mm and as much as a .45ACP just because you can't get a 9mm or ,45 to equal the penetration power of x25.. and it's easier to get the x25 round "under control" and penetrate less, with the right bullet, then to make the 9mm or .45 to penetrate more...

[1911crazy]

I built 155mm howitzers for the US Army at onetime and i always wanted one on my front lawn since it had 55 gallon drum accuracy and 30 mile range.  I can't say any more  

Thanks to Elmer Keith he has killed every north american game with a 357mag and a 44mag.

[Mikey]

The only problem with most 45 acp ammo and bear skulls is the design of the bullet, being either a round nose fmj or a round nose/hp/soft point, and the sloped skull of the bear and the angle at which it is approaching you.  Elmer Keith discovered, long ago, that round nose bullets (those from earlier 38-40, 44-40, 44 Spl and 45 Colt slugs is that they deform and follow the skull around and out rather than penetrating.  He discovered this on bear and on cattle.  His findings led him to design the semi-wadcutter slug with its sharp edged flat metplat and 'square' shoulder.  Keith related a story about encountering a angry bull that he had to shoot - he was carrying a 1873 Colt in 38-40.  His first round out was a factory load that failed to penetrate and followed the skull around until it exited the flesh - that round only angered the bull more, but his 2nd round into which he had loaded one of his swc slugs over a stiff powder charge penetrated stright into the skull and dropped the bull.

Years ago I tended to a man who had attempted suicide with a 38 snubbie and 158 gn rn bullets - he placed the muzzle against his temple and fired and the bullet traveled around his skull beneath his eyebrows (or just above them) and out the skin on the other temple.  It looked as though he had shot himself clean through the head and survived but not so.  The bullet had deformed and followed the bone, as round nose bullets tend to do.  He had a massive headache but the day he got out of the psych ward he tried it again with a shotgun, and succeeded.....

The 45 acp, if loaded properly, will work.  If loaded with a heavy weight (230 gns or more) swc, either hardcast or fmj, to about 950'/sec., you will get much better direct impact and penetration.  I seriously doubt that most personal defense or police loads would work worth a darn due basically to the bullet nose design; none the less, I feel confident in black bear country with a 45 acp thus loaded with the swc slugs.

As regards the 7.62 Tok - I have been after a semi-wadcutter design slug for that bore for a while.  There is one out there for some of the 32 caliber revovlers weighing in at about 98 gns and cast out to about .313-.314; possibly a closer to diameter mould and hardcast might drop it 10-15 gns to stay near the original bullet weight and a hardcast swc out to about 1400'/sec should be much more effective than any round nose design and should provide for better bone structure penetration.  All this, of course, is just my two cents worth...........

[GrassLakeRon]

You know if this were any other round, I think the post would have stopped along time ago.  The 7.62x25 is a very cool round with a lot going for it.  I would love to hear some stories from where is round came from against various animal encounters.  I think that part of the world might have some cool stories about this round and its performance. 

I do think it's time to lobby companies like Hornady and such to start making ammo for it.  The 100 grain XTP would be a good starting point. 

Ron

[CaptainRW]

Mikey, I have to agree, bullet design makes a big difference. When I carried my 45 Officers ACP I couldn't get SWC to feed reliably, so never considered them that seriously for carry.

A bears skull is alot like the slopped armor of a tank... the angel does make a difference.

GrassLakeRon, I agree, but to a point about Russians and angry animals, I just have to wonder how many farmers and citizens had arms to carry. Yes, I'd think after "The Great Patriotic War" many ended up with civilian homes..

 Now if a few big companies would just start loading better bullets for it. I do doubt it, for a while anyways.. since surplus stuff is SO cheap in x25mm and most of the surplus Tokarevs, the most common 7.62x25mm out there are just not a good carry piece, the Yugo being the exception.. BUT as others, like the CZ's, PPSh-41, PPS-43, Wise lite Arms sterling style (NEW) and others end up in gun shops, and the surplus FMJ dry's up, they will...

[lil_hunter12]

hornady makes a .30 mauser round with an 86 grain roundnose bullet can only get it from grafs it supposed to run between 1250-1425 according to 2 different lot #'s i have they shoot very well out of my tok. and have already been used in defending my self from a pissed/ injured pitbull. stopped him with one where fmj bullets would have taken 2 or 3.

[SHOOTALL]

Amazing.  I have seen guys kill whitetails with M1 carbines.  I knew a guy that killed a black bear with one at 50 yards.  I peeved bear is a whole other story in it's self.  This little cartridge might not be the best thing, but It is a whole lot better then nothing. 

Ron
 

I agree and have killed several with one , but boy have you opened a can of worms 

[SHOOTALL]

Seems that some vest suppliers warn that the vest don't always stop a 7.62X25 .

[1911crazy]

My uncle told me "fact" bullets will bounce off the bears thick skull.  I think with a charging bear the only chance we have is a shot in the eye or in the roof of the mouth just before you get kissy/kissy and huggy/huggy with it.  Either his head will be over my mantle on the fireplace or my head will be over his.

One of my buddy's told me once he cpould hit a bear anywhere with his 45/70 and it would die.  I told my brother if my buddy had ashot with his 45/70 and the bear was charging i would wait till i see him piss his pants before i help him out.   I never took my buddy bear hunting again.  My uncle told me if you don't have a quick clean first shot let it go. I love bear hunting because i can kill it and it can kill me just as quick, its the suspense of the hunt too, the stalking and looking for that one shot. Wether its 10ft from me in the high grass and it doesn't know i'm there or that shot at under 25yds. its the thrill of it all.

[Merle]

I hope you guys watch what I do.  The other week, on Handguns on OLN they had various handguns and penetration tests.  Towards the end Gary James had a test between the 9mm and the 7.62 x 25mm on a Kevlar helmet.  The 7.62 went threw one side and was lodged in the other.  The 9mm, no dice.  I have a hard time believing that anything able to pierce German armor, modern body armor and such, not make an impression on a black bear.  As I said before, bigger bear, no way, but the black bears around me....... I have no issues carrying it.  Almost 357 mag ft/lbs........ I think someone should do a 45 acp / 7.62 x 25mm penetration test on steel.

Ron

There is a video online that does a test with varied calibers, including 9mm, 45acp and 7.62x25mm vs the current Kevlar helmets.. 7.62x25 is the only one to fully go thru (both sides) some really hot .357 mag hand loads where able to punch a "divit" out of the inside that punched the water jug he had the helmet on. BUT the bullets all stopped or lodged in the side of the helmet, except the Tok rounds...

 Makes you wonder about how a 327 federal would do? For that matter,if you want alot of penetration from a handgun,the idea of a wildcat made from a 357 maximum necked down to 32 comes to mind.

Why not just use a FMJ in the Maximum?

       

[Merle]

I have shot a bear, in the head with a .45ACp in Maine about 15 years ago.. 1st 2 shots at around 10-15 yards I knew hit it,in the head as there was blood, but it kept coming after my friend, me and my dog (collie, NOT a hunting dog).
 The next 6 shots hit the neck/chest area and that was that.
 Looking after and with a game warden even later, we found that the 1st 2 shots had hit it in the skull and bounced off at angles. It did take a good size piece of flesh with it and left a flap of bloody flesh/skin hanging, bet it gave him a head ache.. but was a long ways from stopping it. The shots where a mix, every other of Winchester FMJ and silver tips..

 Which were more effective? My money is on the hardball. In fact,that's what I carry when I'm more worried about 4 legged predators than 2 legged ones. I am currently shopping for a 44magnum though. As your experience shows,the statement that a 45ACP is ineffective against a bear is wrong. It worked,and presumably saved your life. It also shows that a 45 auto is NOT the gun you want,unless that's all you have. One question comes to mind when you start talking penetration. Would a 180 grain with higher velocity be better than a 230grain? Was the FMJ you loaded the standard 230 grain?

Round one was the Silver tip with a steel ball bearing in the hollow and a bit of wax to hold it.. the 2nd was a standard 230 FMJ.. both bounced off the skull.. Don't know what one did more "damage" but both where superficial in the bigger picture... neither stopped it, the other 6, 3 of each, did..to the body/chest & neck.
  At this point, I was at a point, I was not going to stop shooting till needed to put the next clip.. and funny, every time I hit it, it moved.. so...... :-) Moral of the story, 45 to bear head in Maine,  no good.. aim for center of mass and keep shooting....

I have had people tell me of rifle bullets bouncing off a bear skull, it hit at a shallow angle. The closer you get to 90 degrees, the better off you are, form what I hear. Makes sense to me, as I have had shallow angle riccochets before.

       

[jcn59]

Raise your hand if you ever had to kill a charging bear with a handgun.  Me neither.

Remember the video that went around showing the lion charging the hunter and his PH?  The two of them shot at the lion with big rifles and the lion still managed to hit one of the shooters and make him bleed.

I put four 150 grain partitions from a 30-06 into a 325# bear years back begining with a side shot just behind the shoulder and ending with three frontal shots, the last shot dropped him about 12' from me.  One of the bullets was found in his hip area. 

I don't think I could have stopped him with a handgun.  Maybe someone with more handgun experience than I could have, though.  Someone like Elmer Keith.

I only shot one other bear, and that was a .35 Whelen to the ear hole.  Bang-Flop.

I especially liked 1911's posts;  sounds like he has lots of bear experience.