Concentricity gauges

[necchi]

I'm learning,,
 That bullet Run Out is a big deal towards the end result of accuracy. (I didn't even know what the word meant 2 months ago!)

 Beit the cause of run out, from inconsistant neck thickness, poor or angled neck inside diameter or the seating procedure's, something more than rolling a finished cartridge across a table, glass or mirror is needed to actually SEE .003 or less run out.

 I had an oppertunity to use some tools at a local shop to "cherry pick" some of my loaded rounds and have seen first hand the "on paper" results of nice concentricity vrs that of .003-.004 from the same run at my bench.

 Now here's the quandry, I'm a man on a budget and they far from give away these gauges. I like the looks and multi function of the RCBS Case Master Gaugeing tool;
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955
 Any pro's or con's to this gauge? Or any other comments/advise about run out issues would be greatly appreciated,,,
Thanks guys,,John

[quickdtoo]

I've got the RCBS tool, it shows runout, but that's it, I recently bought the Hornady tool,  it not only shows the runout, but can eliminate it, works like a charm!! I tested it on some factory Rem 260 140gr ammo, most was <.003", the worst was .006", a little tweaking and it was now within spec at .002". 

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/store/Ammunition-Concentricity-Tool

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00005050076

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=220200

[GRIMJIM]

•This item is regulated by the US DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE and may require an EXPORT LICENSE for international orders

[Hairtrigger]

For me the gauge is a tool to help locate a problem. If I am happy with the accuracy I am getting there is no reason to put a reload on a gauge.
That said I own a Sinclair Int gauge and like it

[wncchester]

"For me the gauge is a tool to help locate a problem....a Sinclair Int gauge..."

I don't want something to tweak my crooked loads.  I want to find out when/where/why it gets crooked and correct the problem to stop it, not work on the end results.   Nothing works better for that than the Sinclair tool.

[Graybeard]

By now Richard aka AtlLaw might be ready to part with the one I sold him. I told him then he'd be done using it real quick. So will you if you get one. They tend to become dead weight and dust collectors real fast.

[LaOtto222]

1. I think the gauge is to find problems and then fix it.
2. I have an RCBS gauge, but do not like it very well, too much friction between the case and the V-Blocks
3. I also bought a Hornady concentrically gauge to straighten any bad cases with.
4. The RCBS and The Hornady work differently - RCBS V-Blocks from the case web area to the case shoulder with the indicator out on the bullet, similar to the Sinclair unit - the Hornady checks from the base rim to the bullet tip. Each have their advantages.
5. It gets old to tear down loaded rounds because they are not concentric enough, so the Hornady works good for salvaging them, but the long term goal is to load the cases so they are good to start with.
6. Years ago, I did not have a lot of extra money laying around. I made a concentrically "gauge" for a 222 Remington I had. I was concerned about bullet run out and wanted to check it out. I cut a "V" out of the end of a piece of sheet metal about 1/2" X 2". I then bent over the other end at a 90 degree angle and drilled a hole through it. I made two of them as close as I could to each other. I then mounted them onto a board with a screw distanced right for the case I was testing (in the case it was the 222). I then drilled two small holes about midway between the "V" blocks and the width of the case. I would then take a piece of string up through one hole and wrap it once around the case and back down the other hole. I could then grasp each end of the string and while keeping tension on both ends, roll the case while it sat in the "v" blocks. You can vary the speed of the turning by how fast you pull the string. I could tell right away if the bullet was out of kilter enough to cause any problems. I fixed my issues by backing off the full length sizing die by 2 full turns and getting a precision seating die. Once I determined I was getting good results consistently, I did not need to use the homemade concentrically gauge any more. While it will not tell you how much run out you have, it will tell you close enough if you have a problem. If I spun it back and forth at a fast rate and could not perceive any bullet tip movement, it was good enough. If I could repeat it over and over, I had my problem solved. It is important to have this gauge mounted at eye level with a solid contrasting back ground so you can see any movement in the bullet tip. Like I said, you can not measure it, but if it is out very much, you will see it. By using this method I sorted out my loading issues and then I did not have to use it any more.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[huntducks]

IMHO An absolute waste of time and $$$ for a hunting rifle.

[AtlLaw]

By now Richard aka AtlLaw might be ready to part with the one I sold him.

Now Bill     After all the time I spent wanting one of them things I ain't about to get rid of it!     'course I don't use it none no more...    just clean the dust off'n it onct in a while...     found out real quick I don't like knowin what them bullets measure!   

When I compare what them experts wrote with what I measure, I'm amazed my loads get out the barrel let alone make it down range!   

[gray-wolf]

Most of the problems you are trying to fix happen in the sizing operation, Lets assume your chamber is straight.  Now how good is your brass? and what kind of bullet seater are you using?
Please don't' say you are using an expander ball!  What if it is happening because of uneven neck walls on the brass, are you ready to neck turn also?
  You have been given some good advise as to save your money ( by ammo and shoot )
If you cherry picked some ammo and shot one or two nice three shot groups it means nothing.
  BUT if you are shooting consistent 3/4" targets and want to perhaps go for the 1/2" mark then spend the money and time. But I think you will find it is just another Rabbit hole for your money.
  Don't get me wrong I use a Sinclair myself and the bench rest guys use em all the time.  But it only starts with seeing the run out, I doubt you will fix it with the same tools that put it there.
  I don't want to sound negative but for a hunting rifle that's just the way it is. 
I wish you good luck in whatever your choice may be.


GW.

[wncchester]

"..it only starts with seeing the run out, I doubt you will fix it with the same tools that put it there."

True enough.  But, for me anyway, I can't begin to "fix it" until I identify (1) if I have a problem and (2) where it first shows up.  With a decent concentricity gage I can do that.  And for sure, most run-out comes from the cases AND the sizing/expanding steps.  

Seating run-out seems to occur mostly when there is too much "bullet tension", meaning the necks are much to small for the bullet.  Anything greater than 2 thou is excessive and adds nothing to real bullet tension/pull.

[dozernomore]

a lot of my rifles require 2-3 fouling shot's from a clean barrel before the best accuracy(groups tighten).
I love my concentricity gauge,,I measure all my hand loads and mark the worst on the case with a sharpie..the next time I clean my rifle ,I always use the worst runouts for fouling my barrel.

[necchi]

Please don't' say you are using an expander ball!  What if it is happening because of uneven neck walls on the brass, are you ready to neck turn also?

 I'm ready to start turning necks, And I want better ammo for my "hunting gun's". If I didn't, I wouldn't have started loading in the first place, the goal when I began was to find/create better accuracy, too squeeze every little bit out of the guns I have.
 It does me darn little good neck turning if I can't read what I have done.

 I stood and watched a gent at a local shop check cases, size, turn necks, resize and re-check all with RCBS tools (No expander ball, he cussed those too) and I was impressed. He did several while we where visiting, and the is no denieing what was happening to those cases.
 The Hornady tool is kinda neat, but it only has one function, too fix what's gone bad. I'd like to avoid the bad too begin with. I'm far from BR needs, but sub moa is what I'm after on a consistant basis.
 I think I'll make the plunge for the gauging tool and the neck turning tool,, these hopefully will complete my bench at least for the next few years.
I know I'm dreaming, there's always something else to get but,,, I know there are better tools out there, but it's all about $, at least I'll have learning tools at hand, and can upgrade in the future

[LaOtto222]

Since you are not going to use an expanding ball, try using a Lee collet neck sizing die. They are relatively cheap and do a decent job of keeping the necks straight. I use them along with some Redding dies that neck size only and use different sized collars to shrink down the neck. I take the expanding button out and size the neck just enough to hold the bullet. They are pricey, but do a real good job. I also use precision seating dies, that help keep the bullet straight when seating. IMHO the most critical part of a concentric bullet is sizing the neck. I have been working lately with a 22 BR where I have turned the necks down, just enough to fit into the chamber with a bullet seated. After firing, I do not have to resize the neck at all, just seat another bullet. Pressures are up just a little over normal, so I have to start low with powder and work up slowly. I am still working on a load on this one.   

[Land_Owner]

I can't say that I "know" what my run out is or if I even have it.  I turn necks and my hunting rifles shoot fine.

Turning in that "ultimate accuracy" direction for a hunting rifle is a slippery slope.  Some of the "war stories" from GBO Regulars are incredible.  Their dollars spent reach or exceed the price of a brand new Heavy Duty Supercab Diesel Pickup Truck for rifles, barrels, precision dies, reloading components, "the works".  Yes, they eventually satisfied that "Jones" and are happier and more experienced today for the expendature. 

But what did they really gain?  Knowledge!  Confidence!  Accuracy! and a lot of STUFF!

Does their hunting rifle accuracy kill any better now than before they compromised their retirement funds?  I think not.

[gypsyman]

Very true Landowner. But, if it makes ya feel good, do it. gypsyman

[Land_Owner]

You are right gypsyman.  I hope my point that "scratching the itch" is not only necessary, but fun too.  I may have diluted that part too much in my earlier post.

[wncchester]

"But what did they really gain?  Knowledge!  Confidence!  Accuracy! and a lot of STUFF!  ....  Does their hunting rifle accuracy kill any better now than before they compromised their retirement funds?"

I don't know what Jonesy uses, he don't know what I use.   IF all I did was deer hunt then my loading methods - and useful tools - would likely be a lot different, and a lot simplier.