Author Topic: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend  (Read 12740 times)

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Offline navygunner

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serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« on: April 25, 2010, 03:12:14 PM »
Recieved this from the President of the Navy Marine Living History Association:
For those of you who have not heard, there was a serious accident at an event this past weekend at an event in Plymouth, NC. As per a note I just rec'd from NMLHA Vice President Chris Grimes, this was a freak occurence--but his closing line is nonetheless very, very true:
 
"A cannon (mountain howitzer) prematurely fired Saturday afternoon durisng a battle scenario.  All proper protocols were being followed as far as I know and it was a freak accident.  We think that an ember was in the vent and was not estinguished during wet swabbing.  Two were injured with the number 3 man receiving 2nd/3rd degree burns to his thumb.  The other gentlemen, who was ramming down the cartridge, has lost all but his thumb and a portion of his palm on one hand.  This is another example of how dangerous our weapons are."
 
Geo. Dailey
U S Naval Landing Party
Battery D 1st Michigan Light Artillery

Offline RocklockI

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 03:55:08 PM »
Sloppy Wet is how I have WILL continue to swab between shots !

Steam varriations be damned  ...water and more ,more ,more water is the answer ! water up and out the vent wet !

That really is awfull ! a guy blows off part of his hand  !

Because an oversight of swabbing !

Gary



 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dominick

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 04:46:27 PM »
That's a terrible thing to hear about.  I always swab a damp pipe cleaner down the vent then a dry one to clear it.  I also use a flashlight to check the bore and vent prior to loading.  From what I understand if I'm correct, renactors follow exactly the same procedure as original crew of the 18th and 19th century.  Those guys back then didn't have the luxury of a high intensity flashlight, safety rammer or in some cases extra time between firing.  It appears as if the thumbstall was an invention because of the lack of a good method of checking the bore and vent for burning embers.      

Offline skarke

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 04:52:04 PM »
Horrible, scary, anfd it doesn't have to be a cannon.  Embers in a ML rifle will blow us up pretty badly as well.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline Zulu

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 05:28:33 PM »
Rocklock,
Too much water is not the answer either.  A proper correct sponging is the only way to go.
Zulu
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Offline p51

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 07:45:57 PM »
Of all the re-enactor crews I have seen in action over many years, I am only surprised (in a good way) that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often and with more catastrophic results.
"When all else fails, call for indirect fire on your position, AND GET THE HELL OUT!"
-Exact words of one of my 'call for fire' class instructors.
Former US Army Ordnance officer and lover of all things what go BOOM!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 08:06:49 PM »
Thank you for this information, NG; it always saddens me to learn about these incidents, but knowing about them plays (or should play) an important role in helping us never experience them ourselves.
Dominic makes a very good point about always making sure that the vent is cleared between firings.
What injuries would have been sustained by these individuals if they had been wearing heavy duty fire retardant gauntlet gloves, and the crewman that was seating the cartridge had been using a "Mississippi" safety rammer with his thumb facing away from the muzzle as he pushed the cartridge home?  
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 10:12:00 PM »
doesnt they use foil wraped powder charges ??

boom J , what you are saying here is so true
if he have used welding gloves and the missisippi rammer he probably had just an very unplesant memory from this
but hopefully still had his hand intact


thanks navy gunner for sharing this info with us

hope this will be a reminder to all of us that this can happened
especialy good for the newbies here on the board as it was quite a long time ago we had any safety discussions

the pipe cleaner is a good one dominick
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline SLT kota

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 10:32:34 PM »
Thanks for posting this as it is something to learn from... As a new guy, what is a mississippi rammer? I searched but couldn't find anything.
Thanks,
Stuart

Offline navygunner

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 04:20:32 AM »
Gentlemen,
   Unverified info has the crew firing too quickly( two rounds per min) with no worming nor swabbing if so too many rules were broken. The National Civil War Artillery Association is investigating.

NG

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2010, 04:34:09 AM »
I have to wonder if the howitzer chamber  had anything to do with the  issue?

Offline JeffG

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2010, 06:17:47 AM »
(unknowlegeable) People get bored with the care and time I take between shots... I like all my parts right where they are.
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff

Offline Soot

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 07:21:24 AM »
News on the subject Click here
One of the comments is from somebody on the gun crew.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2010, 07:29:33 AM »
Thanks for posting this as it is something to learn from... As a new guy, what is a mississippi rammer?

Stuart,
These are rules and procedures from one of the American artillery orginizations.

VI Load Powder

A.   Use a crooked shaft U-shaped rammer if available. If not, use a plain wooden pole without a head, or with a smoothly tapered head (made like a U.S. Model 1841 "Mississippi Rifle" ramrod), so that it might force the hand open should premature ignition occur.
B.   Mark the rammer in advance in two places, one to show the amount of shaft which should be sticking out the muzzle when the charge is seated and the other to show when the projectile is seated.
C.   The ammunition chest should be located 25 feet behind the gun and 25 feet forward of the spectator line. Powder charges should be prepared in advance as specified in Safety Rules 1 and 2 below, wrapped in heavy-duty aluminum foil.
D.   Open the chest only long enough to remove one charge in its safety container. (Do not open chest following warning that a gun is about to fire until 10 seconds after that gun has fired to prevent hot vent debris from falling into the chest.)
E.   Carry charge to gun in fireproof safety container. Do not proceed to load unless 3 minutes has elapsed since the gun was last fired. Check your watch.
F.   Open safety container. Remove foil-wrapped charge and place it in the muzzle with one hand while wearing heavy leather gloves (see above).
G.   Wearing heavy gloves, stand to the side of barrel with as much of your body as possible behind the plane of the muzzle. Grasp rammer underhand, with one hand, thumb to the side. Seat the charge lightly with smooth strokes. Do not pound the rammer against the charge.
H.   Immediately upon feeling the charge reach the breech, drop your hand away, releasing the rammer. After 10 seconds and after ascertaining the charge is fully home (according to the rammer marks) remove the rammer, one hand, underhand, thumb to the side. This may require grasping and releasing the shaft a few times. Never two hands on the rammer.

Three types of rammer are described here: The first listed is the safest; it's sometimes made of steamed bent wood to form the U shape, it can also be made with bent metal, or pipe fittings to make the U, with the two elongated ends of the U forming the handle that you hold, and the rammer that goes down the bore of the barrel. With this type of rammer your hands and arms never have to be placed in front of the muzzle of the barrel. The descriptions of the other two rammers pretty much makes the reason for their shapes known. The Mississippi rammer is usually turned from a solid piece of wood, and the narrow pole/handle part gently flairs to form a smooth transition to the wider rammer head, so that if you were loading the gun and experienced an accidental discharge, there would be no sharp angles to grab and tear your hand as the rammer went sailing.  






RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2010, 07:44:21 AM »
If the cannon in the photo in the news report is the actually the one involved in the accident
it is not a true 12 lb Mountian howitzer it has a under sized bore, could be a Hern tube.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline navygunner

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2010, 08:36:35 AM »
I posted this to make us all aware of what can happen. There has been alot of conjecture on how this tragedy happened, including myself. Now I'll wait for the NCWAA leaders to investigate and reach a conclusion. My heart goes out to the families let's all be a lil more careful as we persue this hobby.

Geo

Offline gungoboom

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2010, 09:54:13 AM »
Hi ALL,

I am new to this site but not new to black powder cannon.  In fact I used to fire a mountain howitzer at Fort Washington, Maryland.  We fired one blank round every 15 minutes to follow National Park guidelines to prevent such an accident.  In fact I forwarded this accident information to a friend who is still with the Ft, Washington Guard.  He received a response from Kay Jorgensen of The Artilleryman magazine and the response was: "The Artilleryman Magazine Web site has posted a summary of cannon accidents, starting with recent ones described in some detail and then brief notations about older ones. Contrary to what people who do not follow the artillery safety rules think, premature ignitions, the cause of most accidents, are not freak accidents and can be avoided if people follow safety rules."

Stay safe and keep the muzzle pointed down range.

We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists. - Patrick Henry

Offline buzzard56

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2010, 12:46:00 PM »
I was on the Navy gun next to the Navy gun when the mishap occurred.  They/we were double wet sponging and following safety procedures that have been in place the 6 years I have been associated with them.  The charges are 4 oz wrapped in foil.  The gun on the WITN site is the gun in question.  Worming, swabbing are standard procedures and followed at ALL times.  It was just an unfortunate tragic situation where an ember was apparantly present, the foil must hace ruptured upon ramming  and caused premature ignition.  At this time he has his thumb and part of his palm.  He was to undergo surgery today to further clean up the wound.  If the three breaks in his wrist and lower arm heal and there is no infection, this is all that will be done.  The worst case will be removal below the elbow.  I hope this helps all questioning.  Please keep him and his family in your prayers.

Offline navygunner

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2010, 01:24:30 PM »
Thank-you Sir for the update, I've sent you a pm.

NG

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2010, 01:55:03 PM »
Gungoboom, Buzzard56 --

WELCOME to the board!  To bad we have to meet under these circumstances.

We look forward to your participation and would enjoy seeing pix of  your cannons and experiences.

Thanks, be safe.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
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N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Zulu

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 02:31:33 PM »
I have read several times that this was a "freak" accident.  There is nothing "freak" about it.  Simply put, if there was a live spark, the sponge man did not put it out.  I feel desperatly sorry for the gentleman who was injured.  The lesson to be learned here (at someone else's expense) is, if you are the sponge man it is your JOB to put out lingering sparks.  Water "will" put out these sparks.  There is no doubt about it.  Obviously, he didn't go deep enough, his sponge wasn't wet enough, he didn't go in twice, he didn't twist the sponge at the back of the barrel, or he was in a hurry. 
If the above measures were taken, we would not be reading about an accident.
I truely hope for the best outcome for his injuries.
These accidents can be avoided.  This is a fact!! 
I dare anybody to dispute this.
Zulu
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2010, 03:48:49 PM »
Dispute it silly boy  :D!  

I have yet to know when and why there is too much water  8) ...... unless of course the water is begining to swamp the top of the barrel because the second of three decks is plunging to Davy Jones locker .

If you dont move quick....like yesterday , you would be the the 5th member of the soggy bottom boys .....

And there will be no 'happy little tire swing ' for you . That sucks ......BUT you wont get blown up by a spark . ;)

Gary



"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline p51

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2010, 07:02:26 PM »
I wonder about the number three on the crew at a moment like that. I used to thumb the vent on a 6 PDR and always wondered what would happen to my hand if we’d had a premature ignition. After a long day, my thumb’s muscles would sometimes get weak or totally give out and I’d on occasion place my closed fist over the top of the thumbstall to keep complete pressure on the vent. We used the curved rammer with heavy gloved hands, so I’d guess if we’d had a premature ignition, my hands would have gotten (slightly?) burned and that would have been that, except for anyone who happened to be way out front when the rammer went flying.
But does anyone know if the guy working the vent ever gets hurt on one of these?
"When all else fails, call for indirect fire on your position, AND GET THE HELL OUT!"
-Exact words of one of my 'call for fire' class instructors.
Former US Army Ordnance officer and lover of all things what go BOOM!

Offline dan610324

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 10:25:38 PM »
the flame from the vent is very powerful , its almost like an cutting flame from an acetylen/oxygen torch

I cant remember where but I have seen some photos on internet where they placed a piece of meat ovet the vent and fired the cannon
I tried it with a pork chop and I for sure dont want my thumb close to the vent when it fires

if you were lucky you might get small burns , but you could also end up with severe burns

Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Victor3

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 12:41:17 AM »
These accidents can be avoided.  This is a fact!! 
I dare anybody to dispute this.
Zulu

 I won't dispute that "These accidents can be avoided."

 However, all human activity involves calculated risks that even with prudent precautions sometimes still result in a negative outcome. We thoughtlessly take risks every time we take a step (could trip and crack our skull) or put food in our mouth (could be laced with poison for all we know).

 Everyone involved may have done everything 'according to procedure' and still had an accident. For all we know, the sponge may not have been able to hold sufficient water for whatever reason and they couldn't tell by looking at it. The cannon may have had an undetected void in the upper area of the chamber containing an ember that even a 'correct' swabbing may not have extinguished. Maybe there was a piece of gravel in the powder from the manufacturer that caused a spark as it was loaded.

 So yes, "These accidents can be avoided" with 100% certainty. However, it would require that the gun not be fired.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline buzzard56

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 12:44:04 AM »
He suffered 2nd degree burns on his hand around the thumbstall.  It was mostly intact but for a few missing stitches (thumbstall).  Might I suggest a cut down welders glove on the left hand?  Be safe,

Offline carronader

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 01:48:26 AM »
I agree totally with Victor 3  , we in Construction have " Risk Management "  this is taken extremely seriously , and yet there are still more deaths ( in UK ) in our Industry than any other.Falling from height has always been the worst area , and still....with all the research , training , resources it continues. 
 " Risk " comes with heart beat and breathing. All you can do is follow recognised procedures  or go play with wooden cannons.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 05:20:56 AM »
Actually one of the jobs with a high mortaliaty rate is working on a garbage truck,
more sanitatation men are killed in a year than police. I did that job for 8 years had
a few injuries and one or two close calls, but you are willing to work with the knowlege
that there are dangers in the job.
Working with cannon its the same, we do it with the knowlege that there are certian
dangers we accept the risk and practice safe loading proceedures what more can one do?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline subdjoe

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 05:26:45 AM »
Any update on the condition of the guy with the serious injury?
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 09:15:47 AM »
One thing that would have helped here and in other events of this nature would be to put away the period rammers and only use the U-shaped ones that keep the loader behind the muzzle and have no head to be avoided.  Military practice has been lax regarding safety things in wartime since the basic activity causes so many deaths and injuries but recreational users don't have that excuse.
GG
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