Author Topic: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend  (Read 12738 times)

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Offline buzzard56

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2010, 12:38:06 PM »
Tim has his thumb and part of his palm.  He has undergone several surgeries to clean the hand etc.  He is scheduled for 2 more between this week and next.  He also has 3 breaks in his arm between his wrist and elbow.  If they heal and there is no infection, they will not have to remove any more.  He is in good spirits, and with good thoughts and prayers he will continue to improve.  If anyone wishes to donate to help he and his wife (she has cancer) pay medical bills, there is a fund.  Go to the North Carolina Naval Squadron site and the information is there,  Thanks, and God bless,  the BUZZARD

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2010, 03:06:17 AM »
Thanks for posting the URL.

This shifts the focus from arm-chair-quarterbacking to action.   ;)

(Not to detract from the focus on safety.)
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Hey Joe

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2010, 03:20:00 AM »
I follow the rules and stop the vent.  I do wonder though if it would not be safer to wet sponge with an open vent;  see water through the vent;  then stop the vent for the rest of the loading process.
Artillery;  lending dignity to what would otherwise be a brawl

Offline XxLT250RxX

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2010, 10:55:57 AM »
Sloppy Wet is how I have WILL continue to swab between shots !

Steam varriations be damned  ...water and more ,more ,more water is the answer ! water up and out the vent wet !


Gary


Rocklock,
Too much water is not the answer either.  A proper correct sponging is the only way to go.
Zulu

I don't have as much experience with cannons as most of you but there seems to be to schools of thought on sponging.  I always want to see water spray from the vent.  What is wrong with that?  I am not trying to start a fuss, I just want to keep what I came here with.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2010, 11:49:39 AM »
The problem with lots of water is getting it back out of the bore before loading the next charge.  Standing water can cause smoldering pieces from the next shot.  The bore should be dry when the dry sponging is finished.
GG
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Offline Hey Joe

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2010, 12:37:40 PM »
Wet sponge is not soaking wet;  followed by dry sponge to soak up the water.  Cartridge is in a baggie surounded by layers of tin foil, which is wormed out after a safe interval following firing.  Seems wet sponge with vent open would preclude sparks.  Why not ?
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Offline Victor3

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2010, 01:57:26 AM »
One thing that would have helped here and in other events of this nature would be to put away the period rammers and only use the U-shaped ones that keep the loader behind the muzzle and have no head to be avoided.  Military practice has been lax regarding safety things in wartime since the basic activity causes so many deaths and injuries but recreational users don't have that excuse.

 I don't see why U-shaped rammers are not a requirement with the N-SSA and similar groups today. Don't the majority of serious injuries we hear about among CW artillery reenactors involve a body part in line with the bore during loading?

 I understand the desire to be 'period correct' and all, but IMO that shouldn't be more important than a simple safety feature that will prevent someone from losing a hand if there's a premature ignition.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2010, 05:28:25 AM »
Wet sponge is not soaking wet;  followed by dry sponge to soak up the water.  Cartridge is in a baggie surounded by layers of tin foil, which is wormed out after a safe interval following firing.  Seems wet sponge with vent open would preclude sparks.  Why not ?

The use of a Thumb Stall over the vent when wet sponging creates a Vacuum which should deprive any sparks in the vent
of oxygen, wet sponging with an open vent has no guarantee that water would drown a spark in the vent.
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Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2010, 05:48:33 AM »
Without looking, isn't the first step in the drill cleaning the vent, it done right, then the issue of sparks in the vent should be irrelevant.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2010, 09:01:59 AM »
This topic along with the advisory topic of how to construct safe artillery pieces are in my opinion the two most important topics that we discuss on our forum (I'm including all aspects of loading in this present topic). It also impresses me as especially relevant at this time, (though it should always be considered relevant) because of all the new names that are appearing at the top of the page, both those members that are still scoping things out, and those who have already taken the plunge and made their first posts.

In the opening post of this thread the possibility of this accident being caused by a live ember in the vent is put forward, and while this is obviously complete conjecture, let's for the sake of argument say that we believe it to be a fact.
The next step here would be to read Double D's post about cleaning and clearing the vent properly, which I have to agree, would absolutely nullify the supposed reason that this accident occured, and let's also add here that doing this would make it unnecessary to try and recreate 'Old Faithful' gushing up out of the vent. Another very good reason not to "flood" the bore of your barrel is that it would in the opinion of many, (me included) just create an even more dangerous circumstance when reloading your piece (this topic has been covered here before).
When I use the phrase 'school of thought' what I would be describing would be a large number of individuals that are involved in a certain activity, and are in agreement about a specific aspect of that activity. Now if this be the case, then in my opinion there is basically (and this would include both contemporary and past thoughts on the subject) only one school of thought on the subject of inundating the bore of a cannon with water, with the intended objective being to douse any burning/smouldering black powder contained in either foil or cloth remnants; and that one 'school of thought' would hold the opinion that it's not a good idea. Of course, when I'm talking about one shcool of thought here, I'm referring to valid American artillery orginizations, including the U.S. Park Service, that follow detailed rules, procedures, and guidelines concerning loading.
I realize that upon first reading this 'anti-flooding' opinion, that to many it probably sounds counterintuitive; after all, what sounds so wrong about completely dousing and extinguishing with certainty, any burning embers left in the bore of your gun after firing it? Well, let's discuss a few words from the preceding sentence, namely completely and certainty: There is no factual 'complete certainty' that there would be no smouldering embers left in a guns bore that had been flooded with water. The only way to be certain that no burning remnants remained in either the chamber, or the vent of the piece would be to make sure that they had been removed, and flooding with water isn't going to assure you of that. In fact, I agree with many others that using excessive water to mop the bore would only tend to exacerbate the problem of remnants sticking to the walls of the chamber.
When I fire any of my reduced scale cannons I do exactly the same thing that I see the skirmishers and reenactors do when they wet swab the bores of their full sized guns; I dip the sponge in water and then vigorously shake or spin the excess water off before running it down the bore.

I'm not going to copy and paste here a lot of things off of the BPMC link that accompanies this post, but I would suggest that those of us who are concerned with safety give this past thread a good read.
 
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,182144.0.html


Quote
  Re: List of past cannon accidents
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2009, 11:44:20 AM » Quote 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Okay, now it make sense.

Wet sponge leaves water.  Charge gets wet and leave smouldering debris after firing. Next charge gets rammed in on top of smoldering debris.

The drill is very important. 

Ten Step Standard Procedure from National Safety Rules and Procedures for Shooting Muzzleloading Artillery, as adapted by the American Artillery Association March 2000


I Clean the Vent
Clean the vent as the first step in each cleaning, loading and firing sequence. Proceed as follows:


Use a .22 caliber or appropriately sized bronze cleaning brush on a suitable rod and brush the entire vent twice.

If no brush is available, the alternative method is to run the priming pick or gimlet up and down the vent twice, twisting to make sure the vent is completely free of powder bag remnants.

II Stop the Vent
Seal the vent with thumb pressure during the entire cleaning and loading process. This means no air should escape the vent from the time the worm enters the muzzle until the rammer is removed after the projectile has been seated. Use a leather thumbstall or heavy glove to protect your thumb to protect your thumb and make a tight seal.

III Worm the Bore
Using a tool with two sharp steel points which replicates an original cannon cleaning worm, worm the bore until all debris is removed. Turn the worm at the breech to pick up any powder container remnants and to loosen any powder residue. The worm should fit closely so the points will pick up debris easily.

IV Wet Sponge the Bore
Sponge with a wet (but not sopping) tight-fitting sponge with a head of lambswool or wool carpeting over a wooden cylinder affixed to a shaft at least one foot longer than the bore. The end of the sponge head should conform to the shape of the breechplug.
Seat the sponge against the breech with hand pressure and give two full rotations of the shaft. Withdraw the sponge half-length, twist, then reseat against the breech and give another two full rotations.
Remove the sponge. If any powder container remnants or unburned powder comes out with the sponge, repeat the entire process, starting with Step III Worm.

V Dry Sponge the Bore
After wet sponging, the same procedure is used with the dry sponge. The dry sponge is cleaned and dried off periodically with an absorbent towel-type rag. (The purpose of the dry sponge is to remove excess moisture from the bore; if water is left in the bore it may cause incomplete burning of the next powder charge, leaving dangerously glowing residue.)

VI Load Powder
Use a crooked shaft U-shaped rammer if available. If not, use a plain wooden pole without a head, or with a smoothly tapered head (made like a U.S. Model 1841 "Mississippi Rifle" ramrod), so that it might force the hand open should premature ignition occur.
Mark the rammer in advance in two places, one to show the amount of shaft which should be sticking out the muzzle when the charge is seated and the other to show when the projectile is seated.
The ammunition chest should be located 25 feet behind the gun and 25 feet forward of the spectator line. Powder charges should be prepared in advance as specified in Safety Rules 1 and 2 below, wrapped in heavy-duty aluminum foil.
Open the chest only long enough to remove one charge in its safety container. (Do not open chest following warning that a gun is about to fire until 10 seconds after that gun has fired to prevent hot vent debris from falling into the chest.)
Carry charge to gun in fireproof safety container. Do not proceed to load unless 3 minutes has elapsed since the gun was last fired. Check your watch.
Open safety container. Remove foil-wrapped charge and place it in the muzzle with one hand while wearing heavy leather gloves (see above).
Wearing heavy gloves, stand to the side of barrel with as much of your body as possible behind the plane of the muzzle. Grasp rammer underhand, with one hand, thumb to the side. Seat the charge lightly with smooth strokes. Do not pound the rammer against the charge.
Immediately upon feeling the charge reach the breech, drop your hand away, releasing the rammer. After 10 seconds and after ascertaining the charge is fully home (according to the rammer marks) remove the rammer, one hand, underhand, thumb to the side. This may require grasping and releasing the shaft a few times. Never two hands on the rammer.

VII Load Projectile
The projectile loading procedure is the same as that for powder. The rammer is operated with short strokes, one hand, underhand, thumb to the side, until the mark shows the projectile has been fully seated.
No projectile should fit the bore so tightly as to be difficult to seat. All projectiles should pass wasily through a bore sized ring gauge.
Be sure the projectile is seated fully against the powder charge.
Upon completion of loading, person ramming shall indicate to the person holding the vent that the gun is fully loaded. The vent may then be released.

VIII Pick the Charge
To insure ignition, pick the powder charge wrapper through the vent with a pick or gimlet held by the shaft, between glove protected fingers.

The pick shall be constructedof a non-sparking material.

IX Prime
Priming the vent depends on the type of ignition used. Typical systems are: linstock and priming powder, fuse, priming quills, friction primers, .22 blank, and percussion cap.
If priming powder is used, prime from an open topped container constructed to hold just enough 4F or 3F powder to fill the vent. The priming device should have a handle so that the hand is never over the vent when pouring the loose powder. Priming is not done directly from powder horns or flasks.
Hot debris is apt to be blown out the vent on discharge. Crew members should wear hats for protection, spectators kept at a safe distance, and all ammunition chests closed whenever any gun is firing.

X Fire the Gun
The person designated to ignite the charge calls out "Ready to fire" in a loud voice to alert other crews on the line that a gun is about to fire and to notify the gun captain that the piece is primed. At this call, any open ammunition chests are immediately closed. The gun captain makes a quick visual inspection of the range forward of the muzzle to make sure no one is in danger and then commands "Fire". The time between "Ready to Fire" and "Fire" should be at least five seconds. The primer is then ignited.
Priming powder, fuse and priming quills are ignited with a linstock which is long enough to allow the cannoneer to stand outside the wheels. The linstock holds the burning slow match made of cotton rope impregnated with potassium nitrate or lead acetate to make it burn.
If a lanyard is used to ignite friction primers, or to activate a lock using percussion caps or blank cartridge, it should be long enough to allow the cannoneer to stand outside the wheels and out of the way of recoil.



RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2010, 12:31:09 PM »
The use of a Thumb Stall over the vent when wet sponging creates a Vacuum which should deprive any sparks in the vent of oxygen...

I see this explanation given every time this is discussed yet simple thought would show that the seal of the sponge to the bore is not sufficient to achieve a true oxygen-free atmosphere in the bore between thumbstall and sponge head.  It does lower the pressure to some degree but we are fooling ourselves if we think that there is no combustion supporting oxygen present.  If a true vacuum were being achieved, the sponge could not be pulled from the bore (pi/4 times 4.622 times 14.7 lbs/in2=246 lbs.)

Put the period rammers back in the display rack and use a safety rammer.
GG
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Offline XxLT250RxX

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2010, 07:46:10 PM »


Quote
When I use the phrase 'school of thought' what I would be describing would be a large number of individuals that are involved in a certain activity, and are in agreement about a specific aspect of that activity…………………….Of course, when I'm talking about one shcool of thought here, I'm referring to valid American artillery orginizations, including the U.S. Park Service, that follow detailed rules, procedures, and guidelines concerning loading.
I disagree with this.  Just because large “numbers of individuals” or “valid organization” put forth an opinion on a subject they are engaged in does not automatically make it so.  There are hundreds of examples where the masses or experts were wrong.  Some examples:

Agent Orange – Thousands died because a “valid organization” thought it was OK.

Vaccines & Drugs – How many have died because these experts concocted something that causes cancer, heart disease, birth defects etc? 

Slavery – It was the “school of thought “for a large groups of people.

The Inquisition – The Roman Catholic Church.  How many died because of this “valid group” and their “school of thought”

The list goes on and on.
Quote
In the opening post of this thread the possibility of this accident being caused by a live ember in the vent is put forward, and while this is obviously complete conjecture, let's for the sake of argument say that we believe it to be a fact.

There is no factual 'complete certainty' that there would be no smouldering embers left in a guns bore that had been flooded with water.

As we know there are only two things in life that are a “complete certainty”.  However, I feel pretty confident that had “Old Faithful” erupted from the vent on the gun in question that this man would still have his hand.  A smoldering ember is much more likely to be extinguished by a flood of water than by a damp sponge.  The biggest reason I see not to flood is the possibility of the next charge not igniting due to the bore not being dried well. This would be an extremely dangerous situation.

Disclaimer – Don’t do as I do.  Read everything posted by the experts here.  Usually the “experts” are right.  If you decide to deviate from what they recommend do so at your own risk. 

Put the period rammers back in the display rack and use a safety rammer.
I think this is the best piece of advice in the entire thread.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2010, 08:40:34 PM »
The other thing we can retire to the display rack along with the period rammers is the period thumbstalls.  We can certainly come up with something that would do equally well or better at stopping the vent and keep the operator's hand away from the vent.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2010, 10:31:15 PM »
Quote
As we know there are only two things in life that are a “complete certainty”.

 I suppose we would have to include me, but I don't know what the two complete certainties in life are; XxLT250RxX, would you please enlighten me?

If the "expert" you're referring to is me you've got me all wrong, I'm no expert, nor have I ever claimed to be, and believe it or not, I have absolutely no desire to try out for the position.







RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Victor3

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2010, 10:37:50 PM »
 If the vent liner were made to protrude above the top of the barrel and had OD threads on it, a cap could be screwed on.

 If the liner/cap were designed to withstand the maximum pressure that they'd be subject to, you could still (relatively) safely cover it with a thumb to make the drill look historical.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Terry C.

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2010, 03:00:18 AM »
I reread the entire thread and still the only reference to the rate of fire I could find was an unfounded rumor that proper procedures were being ignored, which was later refuted by eyewitnesses.

So I put this question to those who were actually there, approximately how long had it been since the last shot was fired from this gun?

Offline Zulu

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2010, 03:43:48 AM »
Quote
As we know there are only two things in life that are a “complete certainty”.

 I suppose we would have to include me, but I don't know what the two complete certainties in life are; XxLT250RxX, would you please enlighten me?

If the "expert" you're referring to is me you've got me all wrong, I'm no expert, nor have I ever claimed to be, and believe it or not, I have absolutely no desire to try out for the position.

Complete certainty
Death and taxes.
Zulu




 
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www.jmelledge.com

Offline XxLT250RxX

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2010, 04:46:01 AM »
Quote
As we know there are only two things in life that are a “complete certainty”.

 I suppose we would have to include me, but I don't know what the two complete certainties in life are; XxLT250RxX, would you please enlighten me?

If the "expert" you're referring to is me you've got me all wrong, I'm no expert, nor have I ever claimed to be, and believe it or not, I have absolutely no desire to try out for the position.

Complete certainty
Death and taxes.
Zulu







Zulu nailed it, death and taxes.

Boom J, I appreciate your input.  In the Machine Tool class I teach I allow my students to make a small cannon as one of their machining projects.  I usually do not allow them to drill the bore to depth or drill the vent.  But I know most of them probably finish them on their own and shoot them.  I have referred them to this site to learn more about the safety aspects but I doubt they bother.  I will print the instructions you posted and give it to them.  I will also instruct them to use commons sense as ultimately they are responsible for their own safety.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2010, 06:24:41 AM »


Complete certainty
Death and taxes.
Zulu

Now I would have said political grandstanding and bad food at political dinners (love that vulcanized chicken and hard-as-bb rice)
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2010, 06:55:32 AM »
Thank you, Zulu. :)

XxLT250RxX,
I was almost positive that you were referring to 'death and taxes' I just wanted to be "certain."
Well, I would think that you of all people would understand that in a world composed of almost total uncertainty, it would in all probability be very unlikely that there would be two things that could escape the same judgement. I don't think death exists, I believe in eternal life, and there happen to be millions that agree with me, so much for death being a certainty. As for taxes, well, listen it goes without saying that there are thousands upon thousands of people that don't pay their taxes, some of them destitute, some filthy with money like Marc Rich, who with the pardon that W.J. Clinton bestowed on him, is now living like a king, never having had to pay one cent in penalties. No, taxes aren't a certainty.




 Quote
When I use the phrase 'school of thought' what I would be describing would be a large number of individuals that are involved in a certain activity, and are in agreement about a specific aspect of that activity…………………….Of course, when I'm talking about one shcool of thought here, I'm referring to valid American artillery orginizations, including the U.S. Park Service, that follow detailed rules, procedures, and guidelines concerning loading.
"I disagree with this.  Just because large “numbers of individuals” or “valid organization” put forth an opinion on a subject they are engaged in does not automatically make it so.  There are hundreds of examples where the masses or experts were wrong.  Some examples:

Agent Orange – Thousands died because a “valid organization” thought it was OK.

Vaccines & Drugs – How many have died because these experts concocted something that causes cancer, heart disease, birth defects etc?  

Slavery – It was the “school of thought “for a large groups of people.

The Inquisition – The Roman Catholic Church.  How many died because of this “valid group” and their “school of thought”

The list goes on and on."


Oh yes it "certainly" does: We can now add 'death and taxes', there being one "school of thought" that thinks they are a certainty, and another that doesn't.


XxLT250RxX; I have seen this juvenile (that's right, I wouldn't even rate this as sophmoric) nonsense on other forums almost in this exact form, so I'm assuming you're the borrowing pupil not the teacher, but there's always the possibility that you're the originator, and in that case, boy are we going to have some fun.
Two questions: Do you actually want me to take these "deep thoughts" seriously, because if you do, I give you my word that I will.
Do you know of John Locke and his works?    
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2010, 09:10:24 AM »
I'll stick with Einstein, who said SOMETHING like there were only two things that were infinite - the universe and man's stupidity - but he wasn't sure about the universe.

WE are all guilty of stupidity at one point or another, some more often, some longer, some more intensely.  So what, get on with life.   ;D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline dan610324

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2010, 09:23:58 AM »
taxes , you dont even know what it is until you have been living in sveden for a while

how large is your sales tax (vat) ??
here the government add 25% on every nickle and dime you are shopping for

whats your income tax ??
here it is between 35 and 50%

so first they take half of your money away
then another 25% when you use whats left of it

+ all the extra extreme taxes for fuel , electricity , alcohol and a lot of other stuff

so you americans shouldnt even mention the word tax until you have tried the swedish system for a while
we got the highest tax pressure in the world
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2010, 09:46:25 AM »
Guys, cannon safety please...

Lets leave the tax discussion for the pot bellied stove forum...Dan, I'm sorry, you may not know but the possibility of VAT has been broached here in the US and it is a hot political button...I don't even want it to get started here.

Offline dan610324

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2010, 09:56:48 AM »
sorry DD , my mistake
just want to point out how good you have it
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline oyvind

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2010, 11:08:43 AM »
Hi everyone.
I'm fresh when it comes to guns and mortar.
But i have worked with explosives for years.
It happened one similar accident aboard one ship not long ago.
They had used Vorm to shove gunpowder charge .. spark between the worm and barrel lit gunpowder, multiple injuries.
One thing is certain, "water" extinguish embers and fire.
I use plenty of water, and must take the job of drying.
I must ask.
Contest that the N-SSA has.
Has there been any accidents lately?
The N-ssa men follow the procedures very carefully ..


with regards

Offline XxLT250RxX

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2010, 11:17:18 AM »

 XxLT250RxX; I have seen this juvenile (that's right, I wouldn't even rate this as sophmoric) nonsense on other forums almost in this exact form, so I'm assuming you're the borrowing pupil not the teacher, but there's always the possibility that you're the originator, and in that case, boy are we going to have some fun.
Two questions: Do you actually want me to take these "deep thoughts" seriously, because if you do, I give you my word that I will.
Do you know of John Locke and his works?    

You can call me juvenile and sophomoric or anything else you won’t if it makes you feel superior.  I am not going to discuss John Locke or philosophy with you.  I won’t take this thread any further off topic.  Besides, a mental midget like me would not stand a chance against a mental giant with such a superior intellect such as you.   I have seen the threads you refer to also and there are always one or two pompous individuals who know it all and feel the need to impose their opinions and ideas on someone else.



Guys, cannon safety please...


Double D
Sorry if I caused this thread to derail.

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2010, 11:24:36 AM »
Cool it Gents!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2010, 01:39:19 PM »
XxLT250RxX,
You're mistaken about me calling you juvenile, I didn't. I called the writings of the person who originally placed these sentiments on the internet juvenile, and I wouldn't even raise his or her Lockean views to the level of sophomoric.

I honestly don't feel superior at the moment, as a matter of fact depressed would be the better adjective. It never fails on these threads about safety, they never turn out the way that I expected, or wanted them to; and as far fetched as it may seem to some, my goal isn't to find out how large my head can swell, but to help keep safe, those who choose to fire ML artillery.

So, as has been suggested, let's get back to dicussing the safety issues, because on this thread I'm not going to throw my hands in the air as I have in the past.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline buzzard56

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2010, 01:44:22 PM »
The time between shots was less than two minutes.  However, in the years I have been a cannoneer, only at state parks have I EVER encountered the "3 minute+" rule and only for demonstrations.  Could it also be their way of saving powder since they usually supply not just the powder, but usually roll the rounds (asking the type of gun and bore we are bringing).  I have shot in battles and memorials from VA, MD to PA to GA and west to WVA (can't go any further east w/o using an ironclad) and haven't even heard of any group slowing down except in the attempt to stretch out powder supply.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, the list of possible things we can do to prevent further accidents is as long as this blog.  For each pro, there is a con.  If after reading all ot the postings, I would double wet and dry sponge as normal (dip and spin), use HEAVY restaurant grade foil for rounds , and use a straight rammer, and slowly slide the charge down the tube, and use the ramming method of "spear chucking" the rammer and counting "5 dead yankees" while between the barrel and wheel and then removing the rammer.  I might would also use a welder's glove to tend vent.  The thumbstall protected #3's thumb, it was the area aroung it that suffered burns.  I think the fact that accidents like this are so very rare speak volumes for the fact that we as re-enactors must be doing something right safety wise. In fact, does anyone know when the last (non backyard goofing) accident like this happened?  I've seen infantry trip over roots when drilling and because of thumbs in the trigger guard end up in surgery re-attaching digits.  Thanks for indulging my rambling.  the BUZZARD

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2010, 02:37:36 PM »
I'll stick with Einstein, who said SOMETHING like there were only two things that were infinite - the universe and man's stupidity - but he wasn't sure about the universe.

WE are all guilty of stupidity at one point or another, some more often, some longer, some more intensely.  So what, get on with life.   ;D

You know CW I don't think that I've ever told you how much I admire the way you have of diffusing these situations with such grace, wit, and humor.
You may have heard about how dejected I feel at the moment, and I'm also sure that being the sweet guy that you are, you'd go a long way to cheer me up. Now, Im also fairly certain that you know that one of the sure fire things that always gets me smiling is when I can intellectually tyrannize another soul.
So what the heck: Cat; you should know that there is an almost total group solidarity amongst scientists, and their currently held view that the universe is indeed finite. Now, as for man's stupidity being infinite, every thinking person knows that this is an impossible proposisiton, without being coupled with the accompanying proposition that God exists, and wills man to also exist (along with his stupidity). Oh man, I feel so much better. Thank you! ;D :D ;D :D
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.