Author Topic: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend  (Read 12747 times)

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Offline RocklockI

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2010, 07:28:32 PM »
For the love of human muckus ! :o hasnt this thing gone on long enough " These accedent's and their literate proliferations just dont do much for our hobby .

We've all read all the recomendations at least twice or five times , at some point we all know we know better .

Now there are folks out there who live to serve Darwin ,and his rewards . why publicize the poor fools beyond noting it ?

YMMV Gary

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2010, 08:26:02 PM »
Do any of you think that 435. from this book is teaching the Cadets to use only a dry sponge when servicing the gun between shots when live firing, or is the meaning to not overdo it with the water?

A Course Of Instruction In Ordnance And Gunnery Compiled For The Use Of The Cadets Of The United States Military Academy, Capt. J. G. Benton, Ord. Dept.

435. Precautions. After a piece has been discharged the bore should be well sponged, to extinguish any burning fragments of the cartridge that may remain; and to prevent the current of air from fanning any burning fragments that may collect in the vent, it should be kept firmly closed with a thumb stall in the operation of sponging. Experience shows that the use of a wet sponge is dangerous, as it contributes to form, from the fragments of the cartridge bag, a substance which retains fire.


RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2010, 09:13:12 PM »
One wonders if sponging for this author is solely to mechanically remove powder bag fragments.  Hard to believe that pushing them to the extreme rear of the bore first would be the best way to get them out.
GG
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Offline oyvind

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2010, 09:42:24 PM »
If we use a lot of water and there is a little water in the bottom of the barrel. and we shoot a new shot. then there will be guaranteed a "" lot of embers"". Therefore it is important to dry sponge barel.

Mvh

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2010, 10:05:27 PM »
One wonders if sponging for this author is solely to mechanically remove powder bag fragments.  Hard to believe that pushing them to the extreme rear of the bore first would be the best way to get them out.

It sounds like that is what was intended; we know that there often had to be cartridge bag remnants left in the bore after firing, and if worming the bore wasn't done (according to this text, this wasn't even the intended purpose of this implement), then the sponge would evidently be expected to both extinguish any burning remnants, and serve to remove them.

CHAPTER V. MACHINES AND IMPLEMENTS p. 251

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2010, 10:23:24 PM »
If we use a lot of water and there is a little water in the bottom of the barrel. and we shoot a new shot. then there will be guaranteed a "" lot of embers"". Therefore it is important to dry sponge barel.

Mvh

Oyvind,
That's absolutely right; after you wet sponge the bore of your piece, you have to dry sponge it thoroughly before loading another powder cartridge.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Zulu

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2010, 03:40:08 AM »
I once was the gun inspector at a re-enactment.  One of the guns I looked at was an 1841 six pounder owned by a grizzled old "know it all".  I had a small bore light that I inserted into the vent so I could look down the inside of the barrel.  When I did this on his gun I couldn't see any light at all at the back of the bore!  I went in with a worm and pulled out about 1" of packed tin foil before I could see the light!  When I asked him about it, he said he always sponges first before he worms.  When I told him he was doing it backwards he gave me that "look" and said "I've been doing it that way for 20 years and never had a problem".  It explained to me why he consistently had a failed primer.
He changed his drill and I passed his gun but I wonder if he still does it.
Zulu
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2010, 11:13:40 PM »
Zulu,
Are you saying that there may be some fellow cannoneers that are so set in their ways that they refuse to make one relatively simple change, that could almost literally guarantee them that they need not ever suffer a maiming injury, while engaged in ramming a black powder cartridge down one of their barrels?  :o

Your anecdote reminds me of my uncle, and his lack of a relationship with automobile seatbelts. First off, let me say that I love my uncle, he's a terrific guy, and he is a far cry from unintelligent, but he refuses to wear a seatbelt/shoulder harness. We don't even bother with asking, pleading, or arguing anymore, there's just no point to it. When it comes time for my uncle to stand before Peter, he will be able to declare in all honesty, that he only soiled his hands touching these miserable things in order to snap them together before sitting on them; and the only reason that he even bothered with that much, was to stop the darned beeping from coming close to causing him to blaspheme.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline claypipe

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2010, 11:15:44 PM »
I once was the gun inspector at a re-enactment.  One of the guns I looked at was an 1841 six pounder owned by a grizzled old "know it all".  I had a small bore light that I inserted into the vent so I could look down the inside of the barrel.  When I did this on his gun I couldn't see any light at all at the back of the bore!  I went in with a worm and pulled out about 1" of packed tin foil before I could see the light!  When I asked him about it, he said he always sponges first before he worms.  When I told him he was doing it backwards he gave me that "look" and said "I've been doing it that way for 20 years and never had a problem".  It explained to me why he consistently had a failed primer.
He changed his drill and I passed his gun but I wonder if he still does it.
Zulu

Gents, and any ladies lurking in the wings, fecal matter occurs. As Zulu recounts, everyone has their own take on any given subject. Surmise as much as you want, but, we may never know what exactly what transpired to allow this mishap to happen. All we can do is use this event to bolster our own safety precautions. And, let it drive home the fact that our hobby can have very serious consequences, if we are not vigilant.

Two things that I take into account are the human factor and chaos theory. Humans are not infallible, and as I stated earlier, poop happens

Suggest that the flogging of the horse ceases, as he has expired.

Claypipe
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2010, 11:23:10 PM »
Hey Claypipe,
You haven't made a post here in quite some time: how they hangin'?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2010, 04:31:07 AM »
Hi Claypipe , Glad to see you here . Did you get my email on the 6th ?
I didnt know you were a GBO guy .

Gary 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2010, 04:54:47 AM »
  I been gun owner ,shooter, and re-enactor for 15+yrs  many of last as section safety officer . was waiting to hear the report from others but since it has no come yet my question are group by  prevention the most IMPORTANT and  mitigation of injure next .
  The rounds 9 wraps of foil and baggy? 
  The rammer head original or tapered design ?

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2010, 09:27:22 AM »
I too am interested in the causal details of this artillery accident, and would certainly like to know of any information that an investigation had discovered. I also hope that it goes without saying, that most of us that are regulars on this forum feel a great sense of empathy for the unfortunate cannoneer that suffered these serious injuries; but something even more important (in my opinion), is the opportunity to use this specific mishap, and all the other artillery accidents which we come to know about, as a springboard for the discussion of how they can serve to help us from ever having to experience the same things firsthand.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Rotmistrzb

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Real Issues, was Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #103 on: May 13, 2010, 08:34:18 AM »
I am a cannon owner, reenactment gun captain, and the one almost always handling the ramrod.
There was much discussion on another list about thumbstalls, and I agree the thumbstall is of minimal value, but it does help reduce risks by keeping any ember as cool as possible.
The suggestion was that there was an ember trapped in the vent, and that the cure is to clean the vent before each firing.  Probably not a bad idea but I suspect that was not the problem and would not have prevented the accident.  More likely, embers were trapped in foil that had not been cleaned out.  I know from experience that it’s easy to miss.

The real problem seems to me to more like a combination of 3 things. 

1)   Improper cartridge – the foil cartridge must have at least two layers of heavyweight foil all around.  All around and triple sure the part covering powder has 2 layers which means that most will have 3 or more.  I am confident that there is no ember that will ignite powder through a double layer of heavy foil.  Nor do I believe a properly made cartridge will burst open (if the ramrod fits the barrel).   I bet a quarter the cartridge was incorrectly made.   This is top of the list.*
2)   Insufficient worming and swabbing.  There is lots of time to worm twice and at least once after the last bit of foil was extracted.  There is lots of time to swab wet twice and once dry, with different tools.   The wormer/searcher especially should be trained to recognize by feel and sound the presence of residual foil.  However, leaving a pool of water from over-enthusiastic swabbing is NOT a good thing… that makes it more likely that damp priming powder will survive the shot to burn later – a good dry sponging is also a safety step.
3)   Insufficient time passing.  Most embers will die in seconds…. (Since there is no organic matter in the tube but powder, right? So only (damp) powder and residual carbon is possible, right? Double check, no wadding…. Right? )  Anything close to most field rules of 3 minutes between shots almost assures a cool ember-free tube, even if the swabbing is done poorly.  If the worming and swabbing is done well and carefully, it will take up a good two minutes, so no reason to rush that job.


Cleaning the vent, if done, needs to be done before swabbing . If this were done after swabbing it would just knock a live ember (if such existed) into the barrel.  However, Somehow I can’t see a scenario where embers would settle back into a vent – if there is no wadding and no linen bag, only damp powder could make up the substance for an ember, and how would that settle UPWARD, after the blast of the charge rather thoroughly cleared the vent?  I suppose we can’t rule it out 100%, but lets not ignore the higher probabilities while addressing the low probabilities.

*About foil, once a long time ago a couple of us destructive kids decided to reenact a spaceship fire – we did not want to destroy our valuable GIjoes or spaceman action figures , so we used a Barbie or other doll.  We created a foil space suit , partially for looks, but partially so that the destruction would not be instant.  We doused the doll in flames, and even applied a propane torch.  We then pealed back the foil suit to inspect the damage.  To our horror, the doll had been completely protected by the foil suit – barely a mark on her, if that.  The point is, 2 layers of foil really does a good job against fire and embers, short term. 

Offline Double D

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Rotmistrzb first welcome to our board, always glad to have a new face and a new voice.

Your comment on worming/searching makes a very good point.  

I don't shoot full size guns.  I shot the little stuff.  My largest cannon is a 1 inch bore gun. I make cartridges for this gun with baggy and foil.  After shooting this gun for years, I know what a fired foil cartridge should look like when it is wormed out of the bore after firing. Just looking at it will tell you a lot.  It may seem minor but who ever is worming the bore, should be looking at that partially consumed cartridge and reading it.  One quick look should tell you if you got all.  
 

Offline Cannoneer

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I am a cannon owner, reenactment gun captain, and the one almost always handling the ramrod.
There was much discussion on another list about thumbstalls, and I agree the thumbstall is of minimal value, but it does help reduce risks by keeping any ember as cool as possible.
The suggestion was that there was an ember trapped in the vent, and that the cure is to clean the vent before each firing.  Probably not a bad idea but I suspect that was not the problem and would not have prevented the accident.  More likely, embers were trapped in foil that had not been cleaned out.  I know from experience that it’s easy to miss.

The real problem seems to me to more like a combination of 3 things. 

1)   Improper cartridge – the foil cartridge must have at least two layers of heavyweight foil all around.  All around and triple sure the part covering powder has 2 layers which means that most will have 3 or more.  I am confident that there is no ember that will ignite powder through a double layer of heavy foil.  Nor do I believe a properly made cartridge will burst open (if the ramrod fits the barrel).   I bet a quarter the cartridge was incorrectly made.   This is top of the list.*
2)   Insufficient worming and swabbing.  There is lots of time to worm twice and at least once after the last bit of foil was extracted.  There is lots of time to swab wet twice and once dry, with different tools.   The wormer/searcher especially should be trained to recognize by feel and sound the presence of residual foil.  However, leaving a pool of water from over-enthusiastic swabbing is NOT a good thing… that makes it more likely that damp priming powder will survive the shot to burn later – a good dry sponging is also a safety step.
3)   Insufficient time passing.  Most embers will die in seconds…. (Since there is no organic matter in the tube but powder, right? So only (damp) powder and residual carbon is possible, right? Double check, no wadding…. Right? )  Anything close to most field rules of 3 minutes between shots almost assures a cool ember-free tube, even if the swabbing is done poorly.  If the worming and swabbing is done well and carefully, it will take up a good two minutes, so no reason to rush that job.


Cleaning the vent, if done, needs to be done before swabbing . If this were done after swabbing it would just knock a live ember (if such existed) into the barrel.  However, Somehow I can’t see a scenario where embers would settle back into a vent – if there is no wadding and no linen bag, only damp powder could make up the substance for an ember, and how would that settle UPWARD, after the blast of the charge rather thoroughly cleared the vent?  I suppose we can’t rule it out 100%, but lets not ignore the higher probabilities while addressing the low probabilities.

*About foil, once a long time ago a couple of us destructive kids decided to reenact a spaceship fire – we did not want to destroy our valuable GIjoes or spaceman action figures , so we used a Barbie or other doll.  We created a foil space suit , partially for looks, but partially so that the destruction would not be instant.  We doused the doll in flames, and even applied a propane torch.  We then pealed back the foil suit to inspect the damage.  To our horror, the doll had been completely protected by the foil suit – barely a mark on her, if that.  The point is, 2 layers of foil really does a good job against fire and embers, short term. 

Rotmistrzb,
If it be true, like the old proverb states, that first impressions are very hard to change; then I'm going to think of you as having a fine head on your shoulders for some time to come. I offer you a warm welcome to this forum.



RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2010, 04:22:33 PM »
 Hello also  ,I agree with most you say ,except layers of foil at 2 is way to little . Both AAA and  NCWAA and more than likely NSSA require 9 layers . Usually for my 3" rds. I take about 32" by 18.5 heavy foil  fold it by thirds 6x32 then roll around dowel .The More Complete Cannoneer details the wrapping.

Offline Double D

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2010, 07:01:19 AM »
Hello also  ,I agree with most you say ,except layers of foil at 2 is way to little . Both AAA and  NCWAA and more than likely NSSA require 9 layers . Usually for my 3" rds. I take about 32" by 18.5 heavy foil  fold it by thirds 6x32 then roll around dowel .The More Complete Cannoneer details the wrapping.

Tom; in my opinion the only two groups of people that should be allowed to speak for other individuals are mothers and lawyers ;), but I think that this gent may have been referring to doubling the fold of the industrial gauge foil before starting to shape the cartridge on the form. Step no. 2.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2010, 07:57:29 PM »
For the love of human muckus ! :o hasnt this thing gone on long enough " These accedent's and their literate proliferations just dont do much for our hobby .

We've all read all the recomendations at least twice or five times , at some point we all know we know better .

Now there are folks out there who live to serve Darwin ,and his rewards . why publicize the poor fools beyond noting it ?

YMMV Gary



What's muckus?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2010, 06:21:24 AM »


What's muckus?


The expletive conjugation of muck, which is the polite mutation of the vulgarity for biological waste products.....things are getting pretty bad when Gary's writing starts to make sense to me...well we do have the commonality of usemuck training.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2010, 06:33:34 AM »
Ressitances are futilmental . 8)

 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2010, 07:01:20 AM »


What's muckus?


The expletive conjugation of muck, which is the polite mutation of the vulgarity for biological waste products.....things are getting pretty bad when Gary's writing starts to make sense to me...well we do have the commonality of usemuck training.

You know, I forgot all about that commdem bondage thingage youse 2 share, that explains a whole lot a stuff. Hey, since you're in this translating groove; The sentence would then actually be: For the love of human mucous/mucus! Mucous, meaning human bodily discharges?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2010, 07:31:22 AM »


What's muckus?


The expletive conjugation of muck, which is the polite mutation of the vulgarity for biological waste products.....things are getting pretty bad when Gary's writing starts to make sense to me...well we do have the commonality of usemuck training.

You know, I forgot all about that commdem bondage thingage youse 2 share, that explains a whole lot a stuff. Hey, since you're in this translating groove; The sentence would then actually be: For the love of human mucous/mucus! Mucous, meaning human bodily discharges?


Now I think you are catching on.  To translate for Gary and what he was saying....this thread is important and should make us all think twice about what we are doing....but the horse is beat to death.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2010, 08:18:26 AM »






What's muckus?


The expletive conjugation of muck, which is the polite mutation of the vulgarity for biological waste products.....things are getting pretty bad when Gary's writing starts to make sense to me...well we do have the commonality of usemuck training.

You know, I forgot all about that commdem bondage thingage youse 2 share, that explains a whole lot a stuff. Hey, since you're in this translating groove; The sentence would then actually be: For the love of human mucous/mucus! Mucous, meaning human bodily discharges?


Now I think you are catching on.  To translate for Gary and what he was saying....this thread is important and should make us all think twice about what we are doing....but the horse is beat to death.

Oh man, you're givin me a lot more credit than I rate, I mean to tell ya I'm not catchin on to much of anything. Gary didn't say anything bout horseys, either dead or alive, nor beaten when already dead, or hugged when asleep; that was Claypipe wasn't it? That brings to mind the old saying: Many are called, but few are chosen. I think Claypipe was here, and then he was gone, but before he left he typed, "Suggest that the flogging of the horse ceases, as he has expired." I wonder how he knew it was a he?

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2010, 08:27:35 AM »
Let's put this Robert's Rules of order format.

Gary made the motion.

Claypipe seconded.

Motion preceded by discussion, all in favor?


Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2010, 08:35:49 AM »
A democracy in action? Flaming posts allowed to stay where they're put, cursing, utterly discourteous behavior, baiting, but when someone takes the bait they get the punishment; can it really function that way?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2010, 09:23:26 AM »
A democracy in action? Flaming posts allowed to stay where they're put, cursing, utterly discourteous behavior, baiting, but when someone takes the bait they get the punishment; can it really function that way?

Ancient history and I hoped it was put to rest-privately with all parties involved.  Everyone involved in the last blow up got emails and PM's.

So what was the intent of this post?

For the love of human muckus ! :o hasnt this thing gone on long enough " These accedent's and their literate proliferations just dont do much for our hobby .

We've all read all the recomendations at least twice or five times , at some point we all know we know better .

Now there are folks out there who live to serve Darwin ,and his rewards . why publicize the poor fools beyond noting it ?

YMMV Gary



What's muckus?


Flame, pot stirring? What?

I made light of it, hoping you were also. Were you? By your tone it seems to more fit " Flaming posts... utterly discourteous behavior, baiting..."

There is an ignore button, there is a report this post button.  Use them, you haven't.  I am not going to sort out who said what first going back to your first post  when you or any one else posted on this board.

Now one has been punished here yet.  Don't force me into the position to do so!





Offline thelionspaw

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2010, 10:29:09 AM »
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm

I've steered you all to "Rotmistrzb" website, a number of times in the past and several of you have come back oooing and aaahing.  The man is FOCUSED.  A man of MANY talents.

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2010, 11:02:10 AM »
Ancient history and I hoped it was put to rest-privately with all parties involved.  Everyone involved in the last blow up got emails and PM's.

So what was the intent of this post?

Let's put this Robert's Rules of order format.

Gary made the motion.

Claypipe seconded.

Motion preceded by discussion, all in favor?

"A democracy in action? Flaming posts allowed to stay where they're put, cursing, utterly discourteous behavior, baiting, but when someone takes the bait they get the punishment; can it really function that way?"

My post was in direct response to your's about having a vote to close down this thread. You say that your intent was humor, then you go on to say that your not sure if I also intended humor; well what makes you think I can exactly read you, when you admit you can't read me? There's no question that it seems farfetched that any moderator on any forum on the internet would ever call for an open vote directed against an individual member of that forum, but in a way it sure appeared like you were being serious, hence my response, I thought you were taking sides in a situation where you shouldn't. So, I guess that's a simple misunderstanding.
You've informed me that two members of this forum have been in constant contact with you for months about the incredible torments they have had to endure when they read my posts, because of their distaste in regard to the way in which I compose sentences (whoa, life is rough isn't it, talk about some folks that could benifit so greatly from simply clicking ignore, it kind of boggles the imagination). Well, as I told you Double D, I'm used to standing on my own two legs, so I never contacted you about any of this silliness, so I suppose that it is my fault that there was never some form of proactive action taken, one way or the other. I've been mulling over how to respond to your PM, and I suppose I should have done so sooner; there was one filthy post that I was never going to give any ground on, thankfully this post has been removed by the member that placed it on the board, because I have checked.  If you think it is the most reasonably fair thing to do, to start clean from now, concerning this matter, then so be it, it's your call.
It has been mentioned that there is some dificulty in reading what people actually mean, what their true intent is. It has been stated that I'm right on the edge of being punished for what I am saying here; what is it that warrants this punishment, my belief that I have the right to express myself freely, as long as I do so in an honorable manner?   
 

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.