Fighting range and accuracy?

[ZVP]

 Back in the days of the old west saloons weren't that large, Streets werent that wide, and did the gunfighters actually take 12 paces and call it good range to gunfight at?
 Most of the old Saloons I have seen pictures of offer no more than 21 feet and the average card table is no more than 7 feet across.
 So at what distance do I set up my Sheriff model remington .44 to group at?
 Well I thought about this quite a bit and took a page from todays "average" gunfight distance of 7 yards.
 I took a file to my sight and in actuallity only needed to remove ever so little  from the front sight to be right-on at 7 yards with a 44 ball and 35 grains of Pyrodex Pistol powder.
 I picked a regular playing card as a gauge to print groups upon.
 Bingo I had it, I had set the revolver up for modern day "Combat" distances and believe it or not, the revolver will print a group on the card (Or a closed fist if you prefer).
 Makes sense today as much as it did in the old days. A combat gun has to preform at combat distances.
 Now soon as I figgure out how far Rustler distance is, and then attacking Indian raiders are, then I can work up a scenerio for that.
 ZVP

[coyotejoe]

My own cap & ball revolvers are more accurate then my cartridge revolvers, and for good reason. A cartridge gun must have some clearance to allow a cartridge to slide freely into and out of the  chamber. A C&B revolver has an oversize ball rammed into the chamber throat with zero clearance, as tight as anything can get. Properly set up, your Remington should be able to knock the center out of a playing card at 25 yards.
 With that said however, pure intrinsic accuracy is the last consideration in a fighting handgun. As you point out, handgun fighting is generally done at very close range and any handgun is more than accurate enough for such use. A far more important consideration is how the gun fits the hand and how it balances and points in un-aimed fire since in real combat no one is really aiming and drawing a fine bead.
 There was a story from the Wyoming range wars. Three men attacked a fellow in his boarding house room and emptied their guns. The intended victim burst past them and escaped unharmed. How big is a boarding house room?   No one shoots their best groups when someone is shooting back.

[ZVP]

 Actual accounts show that more lead flies than connects when in a real gunfight and having the revolver fit, it's intrustic accuracy and the probability fo good follow-up shots that count.
 In attempting to set-up my 1858 Remington 5 1/2" Sheriff I decided to try and emulate a fighting handgun of the old B/P west.
 I tried to estimate what would be a pratical range and group size that would serve best.
 I think I got the Remington set up pretty well for this one specific purpose, as perhaps a lawman might have in his day.
 My next project is to try and reserch just what spec's a full sized 1858 Army revolverneeds to be set-up.
 The reserch and thought are fun and hopefully I will learn lots inthe process.
 Any good tips would sure help!
 ZVP

[guzzijohn]

Just a guess here but I would bet 95%+ gun fights with handguns were point shooting. Most revolvers were difficult enough to shoot with that little brass bead out front. Now imagine trying to return fire while being fired at or trying to fire from horseback. At best you might be looking down the barrel but not really aiming using the sites. Then on top of everything else most shooting was one handed.
GuzziJohn

[His lordship.]

This is an area where there is a frustratingly lack of good information.  A few days ago city records were uncovered in Arizona showing the witness account and truth about what really happened at the gunfight at the OK Corral, different from the movies.  There was a book at my library on Jessie James that was so full of myth and changed stories that it was difficult to know what really happened to the James boys.  I used to own a good history book of the James gang to have a better idea of the reality of what happened.

I would read as much on the subject and try some shooting experiments.  With the real thing it would be a way to know how it really was back in the good ol' days.  Years ago I was taking a walk in the country near my house after work and it was dark, I was carrying my .22 revolver in a holster as this was in an isolated area.  I had a German Shepard dog come after me, and when I tried to aim my gun to shoot him in the head I could not see the sites it was so dark, the dog backed off before I could fire.  I learned from this that the experience at a gun range and defensive reality are two different things. 

[guzzijohn]

Keep in mind too that most of us probably get to practice much more than most of the guys in the old west. Most could not afford to shoot much and I would guess others did not have the time or did not want to give away their location with the noise. Alcohol and retelling of shooting feats did much to "enhance" the shooting skills of some of these folks. Still I would not want to have shot it out with the likes of Wild Bill or Tom Horn and the like.
GuzziJohn

[coyotejoe]

My favorite quotation on the subject comes for the movie "Unforgiven". Little Bill is explaining the art of gun fighting to the writer and he puts it this way: "Being good with a gun, fast and accurate, that don't do no harm, but it really don't amount to much up against being cool headed". "The man who can hold his nerve under fire, like as not he'll kill ya."
 That target shooting has nothing to do with gunfighting is demonstrated every day when well trained cops repeatedly miss shots you might think no one could possibly miss. A person who is truly cold blooded and fearless in a fight, even if they've never held a gun before, will be far more deadly than us ordinary humans who can cut the center out of a bullseye.

[ZVP]

 All good points!
 I was just pondering out loud my thoughts on a fighting black powder handgun.
 You bet it's a lot of point shooting and likely as not many cowpokes didn't take time to line the barleycorn up in the notch either.
 I do think however that if you set-up your handgun to shoot point of aim at roughly 7 paces with the powder load, ball or bullet and the gun itself has the intruistic accuracy to print tight well then you have a fightin handgun like in the old west!
 Yes a .45 auto with a full combat tune and hot expanding ammo is the quintissential fightin handgun but a .44 black powder handgun is it's granddaddy.
 I  have set my '58 Sheriff's model up like I quoted and it's a heck of a lot of fun to shoot plus I think it'd do pretty well in a Cowboy Action Shooting situation.i I truely hope I'll never "really" have to find out if I am right!
 Thanks for all your comments and please think about the old days and how they did it when you are blazing away at a tin can or such...
 ZVP

[StrawHat]

This is an area where there is a frustratingly lack of good information.  A few days ago city records were uncovered in Arizona showing the witness account and truth about what really happened at the gunfight at the OK Corral, different from the movies.  

Chris D.,

Are the records now available for public use?  If so is there a way to get them copied or posted?  As a former LEO, I realize 10 eyewitnesses often see 11 different things but it would still be interesting to read.

Thanks

[His lordship.]

StrawHat...I saw the story on the news.  A clerk in Tombstone was moving boxes, I think it was because they were relocating to another building and she found several old and yellowed, hand written pages in a brown box.  Started reading, and whala!  A woman witness said that Wyatt Earp had his revolver hidden under his coat while walking to the corral, and when the coat parted some, it opened and she could see he was trying to conceal it by pushing the front of the coat back to a closed position.  In the movies he is portrayed as having an open holster.

The news people did not say anything on access, you could contact the City of Tombstone or perhaps the county historical society there.  As this must be a big tourist stop, surely they will make the information public. 

Public Broadcasting did a recent "American Experience" show on Wyatt Earp.  Up until he died in 1929 he was trying to get someone in Hollywood to do a proper movie about him instead of films geared for romance and violence as he was a guy just trying to make a living in a mining town with social cliques.  He eventually moved from place to place and died in California, still trying to make a decent living having tried various entrepreneurial activities.

[StrawHat]

... A woman witness said that Wyatt Earp had his revolver hidden under his coat while walking to the corral, and when the coat parted some, it opened and she could see he was trying to conceal it by pushing the front of the coat back to a closed position...

Sounds reasonable to me.  In the real world, not having to draw from leather helps a lot.

I will check with the county clerk about public access to the files.

[coyotejoe]

I doubt there is anything new there, the trial is pretty well documented through newspapers, though it would be quite valuable in the original hand.
 It is clear that it was in no way a legitimate law enforcement action. The cowboy faction were in the process of saddling up to leave town. While carrying in town was prohibited it would be perfectly normal for anyone entering or leaving town to be armed at that time. That was just a lame excuse for the attack. And two of them were not armed. Ike Clanton and one McClowery had just been released from jail and their firearms were not returned. The Earps just decided "we're here and so are they so let's just settle this once and for all". I can understand that, it makes more sense than waiting to be bushwhacked one by one, but no way could it be called a legitimate action and that was the verdict of the court as well.

[ZVP]

 Joe I agree. The Earps and Holiday had "enough" with the other bunch and knowing their reputations were pretty sure of being bushwacked (like poor Morgan) and the chance to face down and bring conclusion to all that mess in bright daylight was a brave and probally correct call . Talk about lead balls!
 Once again the range was close and MANY shots were fired compared to the actual hits (Deadly or not). It proves that even experienced gunhands miss quite frequentlly under stress.
 I am amazed that I have read reports that Wyatt was supposed to have borrowed a revolver while going to the gunfight. You would think he' have chosen his own... I could see Doc borrowing the shotgun as he knew it was the Marshalls and was likely well cared for. The Cowboys all used their own "Iron" and in fact Curley was supposedly unarmed and told to leave by Wyatt. That alone proves Wyatt was not a cold blooded killer at the time of the Gunfight. I wonder if Doc would have been so compassionate towards Curley?
 Later Wyatt changed after his Brothers shooting and the other brothers murder.
 ZVP

[coyotejoe]

I think you got names confused there ZVP, I don't believe Currly Bill was present at that time, it was Ike Clanton who rushed forward holding his coat open to show that he was unarmed. Wyatt supposedly told him "heel yourself or run you @#%&**&, which wouldn't seem to indicate any benevolence on Earp's part but rather that he was disgusted that Ike had removed any excuse for shooting him. One story has it that the opening shot was fired by Doc who missed the departing Ike with a shotgun blast. That demonstrated to the remaining cowboys that the Earps had no intention of taking prisoners. One McLaury, Frank or Tom, the one who was unarmed, was killed by Doc's shotgun while trying to retrieve his Winchester from a saddle scabbard on his skittish horse.
 The verdict, paraphrased, was that while it clearly was not a justified law enforcement action it was apparent that the two factions were determined to shoot it out and the survivors would not be held accountable. That court verdict left a lot of bitterness and probably led directly to the subsequent killings.
 More people were killed in the aftermath than in the gunfight itself.

[ZVP]

 You are right I got the name wrong. Sorry!
 ZVP

[1marty]

Most if not all the gun fights in the "old" west were a myth written by eastern dime book authors. Most people in the west were hard working people with a few psychotics-Billy the Kid etc-who should have been in a mental institution. the myth of the bad guys threatening and taking over a town like in the movies was also a myth. most men of that era came out of the civil war and were capable of having the guts to defend themselves.

[coyotejoe]

 You are so right about the fiction writers. Northfield Minnesota stands as an example of what happened if a gang of outlaws tried to take over a town, the James gang got their butts shot off!