Use of different weights of powder, how flexible is it?

[His lordship.]

I use fffg black powder for my handguns as that is what I have been told to use by the makers.  I have a .50 cal. plains pistol that also uses the same powder as my 1851 Colt.  The makers of the long guns, .50 cal. plus say to use ffg powder.  Can I safely use fffg powder in a .50 cal. plains rifle, a .58 caliber 1853 Enfield, or even a .69 caliber musket?

Thanks. 

[BBF]

The burning rates are different, I wouldn't want to chance it.

[FourBee]

FG (1F) - Is used in large gauge shotguns and cannons.
FFG (2F) - Is used in most muzzleloading shotguns, large bore rifles, and pistols .45 caliber and larger.
FFFG (3F) - Is used in rifles and pistols .44 caliber and below and all revolvers.
FFFFG (4F) - Is used only for priming flintlocks.

Because the small revolvers have such short barrels, they need a fast burning powder to get the best performance out of their weapons.

As the above types show you can safely use the FFg in both big bore rifles, and big bore revolvers safely.
3Fg in a big bore rifle ?   You may end up with a jammbed ball in the barrel.  I've never had any experience with the BP rifles.  I'm sure other have tried those combinations and could give you some good advice.

[Rangr44]

I've regularly used Goex FFFg in my .50cal w/o any issues, but would not recommend it for larger bores.

Drop any FFg charge (or recommended charge) 20%, when switching from most BP FFg's to most BP FFFg - IOW, if you were shooting 100gr FFg, make it 80gr of FFFg.

(To simplify things, I use FFFg as both the main charge and the pan/priming charge in my .50 rocklock, too.)

If you're not already using Swiss BP, and Swiss FFFg is used,  ANOTHER 10% drop in the powder charge (10% from Goex/etc FFFg, 30% from FFg) is mandatory.

Swiss BP is made differently than other BP's like Goex/etc, and it burns more efficiently. (It's more costly, also)

BTW - Your topic referred to "weights" of BP charges. Never actually weigh, as on/with a scale, black podwer charges.
Only use a volumetric powder measure to measure the charge size.


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[Semisane]

I use GOEX FFFg in a .54 Great Plains, a .54 Renegade, and a .58 Zouave.  All three seem to do better with 3F than with 2F.

[DennyRoark]

In you subject line, you reference "differents weights of powder".  Black powder is measured by volume, not weight!  What Rangr44 said is good sound advice.

[coyotejoe]

Come on now guys. There is certainly nothing wrong with weighing charges of blackpowder, many serious target shooters weigh out their charges very carefully. The loads shown in BP manuals are weighed charges of blackpowder. The volume measures are marked in "grains weight" but are just a rough approximation of the weighed charge. If the volume measure is correctly marked and correctly handled the volume measure will throw that exact weight of blackpowder. It is only when you get into the various substitute powders that one "must" use a volume measure. That is because those substitute powders do not have the same bulk density as the real blackpowder they are meant to replace on a volume for volume basis. If one uses a volume measure set for 80 grains it will throw approximately 80 grains weight of blackpowder. If one fills the same measure with a substitute powder such as Pyrodex the actual weight may be only 60 grains, but the powder is designed such that the 80 grain volume setting on the measure will approximate the performance of an actual 80 grain weight of blackpowder.
 If one is using real blackpowder the volume measure is just a convenience, not a requirement.
   But to get back to the original question, there is not a world shaking difference between 2f and 3f black. If you use 2f in a revolver you probably won't get the same velocity as you would with 3f but it will work OK. If you run 3f in a .54 caliber rifle, and many do, you will get higher velocity and higher pressure than with the same weight of 2f. When switching from 2f to 3f the general advise is to reduce the charge by 10% to maintain "approximately" the same pressure and velocity.

[necchi]

There's alot of guy's that use 3F in larger cals than recomended by the makers.
 I guess I'd hessitate useing it in the .69,,it's kind of a waste of powder. That's a big chunk of lead to be pushing real fast,,accuracy is bound to suffer, + you'll get alot of kick.

 Volume measures are set-up too toss an equal volume/weight of WATER. It's simply a standard they set a couple of centuries ago and we still use it. 
 

[AtlLaw]

There is certainly nothing wrong with weighing charges of blackpowder, many serious target shooters weigh out their charges very carefully. The loads shown in BP manuals are weighed charges of blackpowder. The volume measures are marked in "grains weight" but are just a rough approximation of the weighed charge. If the volume measure is correctly marked and correctly handled the volume measure will throw that exact weight of blackpowder. It is only when you get into the various substitute powders that one "must" use a volume measure.  ... If one is using real blackpowder the volume measure is just a convenience, not a requirement.

Second try...    Maybe I was being a little to aggressive in the post I lost and this is the Lord's way of telling me to watch myself...    I appologise, I'm in severe withdrawal... I think the cure is worse then smoking!   

But thank you for this post CJ!     I was thinking about starting a thread on this very subject on the way to work this morning.  There is a lot of what I think is misinformation and incorrect use of terms in this area.  I imagine it can get pretty confusing to a person new to the BP hobby.  I don't remember it ever being a problem before the substitute propellants with their "weight equivalent by volumn" stuff showed up.

[Semisane]

  I imagine it can get pretty confusing to a person new to the BP hobby.

That's true AtlLaw. 

I often weigh charges when I want to achieve the greatest consistency possible.  The following is from one of my earlier posts.  It's a little long, but may be helpful to new guys.

If you're going to weigh charges you must understand that, except for FFG real black powder, a 100 grain volume measure of powder does not actually weigh 100 grains, and the weight of different black powder substitutes will be different.  For example, 100 grains of Pyrodex RS in my TC U-View powder measure actually weighs a little less than 80 grains, and 100 grains volume of T7 FFFG actually weighs a little less than 90 grains.  So, if you want two weigh your charges when using black powder substitutes you must first establish the actual weight of the volume charge you want to use, and then use that actual weight for your weighed charges. 

For example, if you want to shoot a 90 grain load of Pyrodex, fill your volume measure to the 90 grain level, then weigh the charge.  Do that five times or so then average the five weights.  That will give you the actual weight of the charge you want.

We're always talking about the loads we use.  One guy says "I'm using 100 grains of T7 under this bullet" and another guy says "I'm using 90 grains with that same bullet".  So, are they actually using charges that are ten grains apart?  Maybe - maybe not.  It's quite possible they are using almost exactly the same load.  It's equally possible their loads are 15 or 20 grains apart because production powder measures can vary substantially.

Theoretically, volumetric powder measures are calibrated based on FFg black powder.  Therefore, any measure set on 100 grains and filled with FFg black powder should throw a charge that weighs "pretty close" to 100 grains, right?   Well . . . . . . NO!

Last year I conducted my own little test. 

I filled my TC U-View measure to the 100 grain mark with GOEX FFg.  That charge weighed 91.5 grains.

Then I filled the U-View to the 100 grain mark with GOEX FFFg.  That charge weighed 89.5 grains.

So clearly, the U-View is throwing "light" charges.  Now I'm curious.  So I get out my twenty year old H&A brass powder measure.

I filled the brass measure to the 100 grain mark with FFg.  That charge weighed 95.4 grains.

Then I filled the brass measure to the 100 grain mark with FFFg.  That charge weighed 94.0 grains.

BACK TO THE BEGINNING:  If you factor in the differences in how people fill their measures - tapping/not tapping, pouring fast/pouring slow, etc., etc., it's easily possible that guy #1's powder measure set on 100 grains is actually throwing 105 grains, and guy #2's measure set on 90 grains is really throwing 80 grains - a 25 grain difference.  It's just as possible that both measures are throwing 95 grains.

[Swampman]

I used 3F only for many years in all my guns up to .72 caliber.  It works better than 2F, takes less, burns cleaner, easier to light.  I never weigh charges and believe it's a waste of time and effort.

90 grains of 3f works great in all the Brown Bess muskets I've ever owned.

[DennyRoark]

Go ahead and weigh if you like, but 90 grains by volume doesn't weigh 90 grains!  If you wanted to shoot a max load of say 120gr and you weighed up 120 grains, you'd sure be over the limit.  If you're an old salt with the game, you understand.  A newbie should stick to volume charges for a while.  Weigh up your volume loads, then load by equvilant weight if you like.  Just don't want to see any pics of a rifle that look like some of those smokless Savage ones making the rounds!

[coyotejoe]

That Savage was blown up with a "volume measure" of smokeless powder! Black and smokeless are pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. Some smokeless powders are so touchy that +or- one tenth of a grain can make a noticeable difference in pressure and velocity. Black powder is far more forgiving, +or- five whole grains makes a barely detectable difference. That is why we can get away with using volume measures for blackpowder. Grains are a unit of weight, 7000 grains to the pound. The markings on a volume measure are intended to represent that weight of blackpowder. The exact weight of a volume measure will vary with the measure, the powder and the way the measure is handled. Your measure in your hands with Goex 2f will not be the same weight as my measure in my hands with Swiss 3f. Even with one powder, one measure and one operator ten consecutive charges may vary by 3-5 grains from the lightest to the heaviest. With smokeless powder such a difference could be deadly, with black it don't mean diddly.

[FourBee]

Even with one powder, one measure and one operator ten consecutive charges may vary by 3-5 grains from the lightest to the heaviest. With smokeless powder such a difference could be deadly, with black it don't mean diddly.

  what U said! 

[Swampman]

IMO (having done a lot of really crazy testing when I was young) it's nearly impossible to blow up a modern blackpowder firearm.

[flintlock]

Back in the 1700s there were only two grades of powder, cannon and sporting...Sporting powder was about FF while cannon grade was larger...So FF was used for all calibers and priming...

When muzzloading started making a comeback in the 1930s and 40s manufactures came out with more grades...So it became the standard to use FFF in .45 caliber and below and FF in .50 caliber and above...

Either can be used in todays modern muzzloaders...FFF is actually fine in larger bores as long as you cut your charge by 10% and work up a load...The advantage of FFF is because it has smaller grains it leaves less fouling in the bore...

I use FFF in both my .40 and .54 caliber flintlocks, both for the main charge and for priming...

Many think it's the "gospel" that you have to use FF in calibers .50 and above when actually this was started early in the last century and has hung on through the years...

[groundhog107]

   glad to know I am doing it right as I use 3f in my 32 36 45 and 50s but I do use 2f in my 58s as they are reenactment blanks and it really doesnt matter.

[groundhog107]

Use cannon powder in the 10lb parrot however

[coyotejoe]

I've recently taken an interest in pyrotechnics, well I've always been interested but only recently done something about it. There people use a lot of blasting powder and there you get into grades like 2FA, 3FA and 4FA, all of which are pretty coarse by sporting standards.
 But most pyrotechnists make their own powder and it is generally considered that they can make a powder much more powerful than the commercial product. I've made some and it works great in my rockets and mortars but I haven't yet tested it in a firearm with chronographed results. It's one of those things I "been meaning to get around to".

[coyotejoe]

IMO (having done a lot of really crazy testing when I was young) it's nearly impossible to blow up a modern blackpowder firearm.

You are absolutely right, so long as one uses only blackpowder! I'm not entirely sure that is true with all of the "substitute powders" and it dang sure ain't true with smokeless!
Well Swampman, now that we've said that, some dang fool will fill his barrel half full of powder and the other half full of lead just to prove it can be done!
I guess what we should say is if one should accidently double charge they "Probably" won't suffer more than a brused shoulder.

[FourBee]

  Posted by: coyotejoe :  I've made some and it works great in my rockets

coyotejoe; you're into rockets ?         Just how big a rocket are you talking about?

[coyotejoe]

So far I've been using 3/4" tubes which would be classed as a one pound rocket if 7" long but I'm using 3 1/4 inch long tubes intended for "stinger missiles" so I guess they're sorta half pound rockets. The stinger missiles are a spin stabilized rocket. In addition to the nozzle at the bottom they also have a small vent hole drilled on a tangent in the side which causes the spin. However I've had some pretty wild shots with those, one went straight up about 20 feet then tipped over and flew horizontally about 100 yards before crashing, still burning, into a hillside. That was a bit scary so I've omitted the side vent and added a stick for counterbalance to get a much more predictable trajectory. Really just an overgrown pop bottle rocket or a scaled down Congreve rocket as used by the Brits in 1812, you know, "the rocket's red glare" and all. It really is "rocket science" to build them and a real hoot to fly them.