Author Topic: How can I achieve low recoil, good accurasy, lethality at 75 yards? (Read 2053 times)

T.R. · « **on:** April 28, 2010, 05:16:40 AM »

Howdy!

I've been kicked enough around by my 12 gauge rifled slug gun. The recoil seems truly unpleasant to me. I recently discovered that muzzle-loaders are OK for the shotgun-only area I hunt. My USAF buddy and I get together to hunt in eastern Pennsylvania about 45 miles north of Philly urban sprawl.

I fired an Omega 50 cal. at the gun club. A member kindly let me try it. Recoil seemed about same as a 20 gauge. But each firearm is different in terms of stock design, weight, etc.

My question is related to recoil, safety, accurasy. Please recommend a rifle for me. My budget is $450. Local shop has a scoped Winchester 45 caliber for $275. Salesman said it's made by CVA. Is a medium powered load lethal at 75 yards? I read that CVA has been involved in lawsuits involving full power loads.

My goal is to achieive reasonable balance between accurasy, lethal power, and minimal recoil. Perhaps a 50 caliber would suit me best but I have never owned a muzzle-loader and my research has been limited. My shots will not exceed 75 yards. The whitetails in this region are half the size of Dakota mule deer.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

rogo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2010, 05:59:19 AM »

You have stated that your budget is around $450.00. For that amount of money there are several ML's out there. As far as CVA is concerned those lawsuits were way back in the mid 90's. They have since been bought out and are a very nice rifle today. RW likes to continually bash CVA but no one listens to him anymore.
I would recommend to you the CVA Wolf as a starter rifle, .50 cal. They are nice little guns and perform really well. In your budget you can get the rifle complete with a scope and have enought left over for other emmenities.
Next I would recommend the CVA Accura with stainless fluted barrel. Those can be had for around $299 at Cabelas.
These are two very good guns, I have them both and love both.
As far as recoil is concerned you can use loose powder and tailor your loads to what is comfortable for you to shoot.

Good luck and have fun.

Skillet · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2010, 07:11:12 AM »

What has already been said +1.

At the ranges you are anticipating, realize that loads as small as 40-60 gns can be extremely deadly with a light, saboted handgun bullet. Very good accuracy can also be obtained with some experimenting.

Example: one short-barreled rifle of mine (a .45), will throw a 200 gn .40 xtp out at abt 1400 fps with a scant 44 gns of fff-grade triple-7.

Will group 5 shots into 3" at 60 yds and has proven very effective on whitetail and javelina. It's a light recoiling load too.

You can take deer without dumping 100+ gns of powder down the tube...

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2010, 07:17:54 AM »

http://blog.cva.com/the-truth-about-cva-muzzleloaders/

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2010, 07:36:13 AM »

I have a cheap CVA side lock that with 75 gr of FFG and a round ball will shoot 2" groups at 75 yards any time ya want and take white tails clean very low recoil. Shoots about the same with 50 grains but I have never hunted with that load. Great for shooting thou.

The cheaper (as in less than 300 bucks new) black powder rifles all seem to shoot well enuff to hunt with and are really fun to shoot and easy on the wallet.

I like the 1 in 48 or slower twist because I mostly shoot my own cast, patched balls, but the faster twist for sabot barrels shot the Hornady XTPs very well usually.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2010, 07:40:33 AM »

that winchester is over priced, its a nice gun but they are not worth that price. go to the Cableas website and order either the NEW cva wolf or the new optima. I own both and they are amazing shooting rifles and simple to clean. Its going to be hard to beat these 2 rifles as far as price and the triggers they come with are superb. Low recoil, you can stick around 70-80gr Powder with a 223 or 245gr powerbelt, or even a 250gr Thor. When shooting low charges i like to use bullets that are known for expansion.

Semisane · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2010, 07:45:22 AM »

Hey T.R. , I agree with Rogo and the others. If you're going to be a two or three times a year muzzle loader hunter you can't beat a CVA Wolf in 50 caliber. Get a canister of Pyrodex RS or Triple Seven and some 240 grain Hornady XTPs in sabots. Shoot anything from 60 to 75 grains of powder and you'll have a very effective light recoil load that's good for 100 yards.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2010, 10:22:49 AM »

The Wolf is a fine rifle but might be a little light for real good recoil control. Personally I would opt for the Accura which is a lot more developed rifle and a little heavier which will also help reduce recoil. As stated you can do everything you want as specified with loads at or below 80gr. of powder and if you stay with the lighter bullets the recoil will also be less noticable. I have killed elk at 90 yards with a 80gr. load and a 348gr sabot/bullet. The .45 will definately do what you want but .50 cal. rifles are easier to find more selection of bullets in more places. The .45 is not very popular and as such does not have much support from the dealers.

luckydawg13 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2010, 01:01:19 PM »

my vote goes to T/C OMEGA thumbhole stock start at $440. love mine i shoot cloverleafes at 75yrds

efremtags · « **Reply #9 on:** April 28, 2010, 01:54:11 PM »

ditto on the omegas. You can get a Z5 blue model very cheap.

Anything in the 75 - 85 gr powder range (pick your choice of powder) is going to give 44mag velocity or better as if out of a carbine and will be plenty lethal if using pistol/bullet sabot combo. Very pleasant to shoot.

My current pet load seems to be 80hr of BH209 using beartooth 280gr WFn. It will shoot into a big hole @ 60 yards.

larrybuck · « **Reply #10 on:** April 28, 2010, 03:16:51 PM »

TR, Here's a SS CVA. 50-70 grains of T7 or BH209 and a 240-250gr XTP and your set

.
http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=PR2010S

anweis · « **Reply #11 on:** April 29, 2010, 02:52:33 AM »

Quote from: Semisane on April 28, 2010, 07:45:22 AM

Hey T.R. , I agree with Rogo and the others. If you're going to be a two or three times a year muzzle loader hunter you can't beat a CVA Wolf in 50 caliber. Get a canister of Pyrodex RS or Triple Seven and some 240 grain Hornady XTPs in sabots. Shoot anything from 60 to 75 grains of powder and you'll have a very effective light recoil load that's good for 100 yards.

Best advice possible.

T.R. · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2010, 02:23:46 AM »

Wow! The speedy response exceeded my expectations.

The CVA info about past problems helped me to understand the quality of their newer products. I'm glad I asked. This USA company has taken many steps to provide safe and accurate rifles for their Customers.

I'm leaning toward a 45 but have not ruled out a 50.

Thanks to all for the treasure of wisdom.

TR

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #13 on:** April 30, 2010, 04:37:18 AM »

Keep in mind that there has been a lot more development for the .50cal. Some .45cal. muzzleloaders have had a reputation for being very picky about what would shoot well in them. Some of the early ones were nearly impossible to get decent accuracy from.

DennyRoark · « **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2010, 08:39:39 AM »

If you're heartset on a .45 (I Love 'Em), just make sure that you get1:28 to 1:32 twist. Also, you are a lot more limited in bullet selection than a .50 If you can get your hands on a well preserved T/C Black Diamond in 45 with the 1:28 bbl, 155 and 180gr XTP's are awesome at <100 yds with 70 grains or so of powder. They are a dirty shooter, tho. Knight Disc Extremes in 45 are an excellent choice, too. Mine is accurate with 60 gr/180gr XTP right on up to 120gr/250 Shockwaves and Hydra-cons. Again a dirty shooter, tho. The CVA Wolf is an excellent recommendation, cheap and easy cleanup and they are tack drivers!

squirrellluck · « **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2010, 04:50:32 PM »

Also check your state game laws. Some states have a .45 min. on caliber for deer. If yours does the 45 with sabots is technically illegal. And you know some LEOs will push the issue.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2010, 05:33:29 PM »

Im tellin ya man!! You need to check out the new wolf! I shot this earlier today with 90gr BH209 and the 245gr powerbelt, recoil feels like my 30-30.
This was only 50 yards, i was sighting in the new scope.

Anonym · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2010, 10:18:31 AM »

Once you figure out which rifle you're going to purchase, here are a few tips to get what you're needing out of it...

Each rifle has a "sweet spot" that will produce the best accuracy and effectively burn all the powder INSIDE the barrel (ie: no flamethrowers!). My Encore with a 26" barrel shoots a 240-260 grain saboted bullet best with about 75-80 grain of Triple Se7en. It's a very manageable recoil and extremely accurate out of my rifle (.5 MOA out to 200 yards!). You can get by with a little less powder if you're recoil sensitive and you should still be more than accurate enough for deer hunting.

You can go with a lighter weight bullet for less recoil and a little more speed to make up for less powder, but as was mentioned, pay attention to the caliber of the bullet in the sabot as you may dip down into too small of a caliber for your state rules when you lower bullet weight. You will have the greatest variety of saboted bullets (both weight and style) going with the 50 caliber. I have a 45 caliber that I hunt with, but it's a slow-twist barrel for patched round ball. I don't think I would own a 45 caliber barrel for saboted bullets simply because there's not much variety and you have to be so careful to maintain the projectile caliber according to my state laws.

You can also add some weight to the rifle to absorb some of the recoil as well. Unless you do nothing but spot and stalk, there's nothing wrong with a little heavier rifle to reduce recoil and add stability. My S/S Encore with Laminate stock and scope probably weighs in the 8 pound range, and I don't have any problems carrying it around during hunting season. Composite stocks will lighten up the weight, so keep that in mind when selecting your rifle.

Most modern black powder rifles produced today are more than capable of killing a deer ethically out to 150+ yards if the shooter does his/her part. Most of my hunting is done within 50 yards and I haven't had any problems harvesting deer with older sidelocks and patched round ball. The key, as with just about anything, is once you get your set-up, get familiar and comfortable with it and use it repeatedly and you will know your limitations.

vabowhntr · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2010, 12:31:45 PM »

As much as I like the .45 for long range work, if I was getting something for your conditions I would get the CVA wolf or optima and use the rest of the money for a decent scope (I like the nikon prostaff 2-7x32 on my muzzleloaders). You should still come in under $400 or so. I would look at shooting 250 gr XTP's with between 60-80 gr of t7 2f. Start with 60gr and work up until the accuracy and recoil work for you. Even with 60 gr of t7 2f you should be near 1500 fps, which would work very well out to 100 yards. Sight in about 2" high at 50 with a scope and you will be good to go.

T.R. · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2010, 02:40:12 AM »

I bought a TC Omega in 50 caliber from seller at GunBroker.com This rifle features break open design and modern in-line ignition. These rifles sell for $350. at CABELA's but I bought this slightly used one For $182.

It pays to shop around!

If it kicks too much, I'll re-sell it and buy a 20 gauge slug gun. Will try some medium power loads next weekend. My buddy at work hunts with PowerBelt bullets and offered to shoot with me.

Thanks again for all the insightful wisdom.

TR

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2010, 03:02:24 AM »

A gun with 1in48 or 1in 66 twist with a roundball and 70 gr BP would kick as light as any . and kill deer to 75 yards but not much more .

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2010, 06:39:48 AM »

I would heed Randy's advice. There are several American made inlines that are safe and accurate.