Author Topic: metric vs imperial systems  (Read 4116 times)

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Offline dan610324

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metric vs imperial systems
« on: April 28, 2010, 12:39:26 PM »
Ive been here for a few years now and as a swede I got  HUGHE  problems sometimes to understand messurements , weights and temperatures you use . noooo I dont want you to change .

but I would love if you could explain a little for me , to me it all seem to be so very very unlogical .
why is the system built like it is ??
is there any logical way to think to easier understand it ??

lets take temperature for example
celsius is very logical , at least for me who are used to it
its all about water ,
0 degrees and water freeze
100 degrees and water boils

is there any similar logic explanations for the farenheit system ??
when an temperature is mentioned here I dont have a clue if its warm or cold

yard or meter , well that doesnt matter if it wasnt for that very unlogical way to split it in pieces
the metric is very logical and easy to use, 1 kilometer is 1000 meters
1 meter is 10 decimeter
1 decimeter is 10 centimeter
1 centimeter is 10 millimeter

how many yards is it on one mile ?? and why ??
why is 3 feet 1 yard ??
why is it 12 inch on 1 yard
why is the fractionals used when its almost impossible to use them for calculations ??

is it anyone who could help me to try to understand this ??

cannon related or not ??
of course it is , used in almost every post in one or another way  ;D
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 12:51:48 PM »
Our (non-standard) inch system (as opposed to almost ALL the other countries in the WORLD using metric) was developed a little at a time over many years and from several cultures.

With in our measurement 'system' there are many specialized methods and units of measure that are peculiar to one trade or another. 

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Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 01:02:16 PM »
is there any special reason to continue to use such an difficult and unlogical system when even most american scientists and the armed forces use the metric system
it was because someone mixed in some non metreic unit in an calculation nasa lost that thing who should have landed on mars 1999

but back to the main issue , is there any easy way to learn how it works ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Soot

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 01:07:54 PM »
Quote
is there any easy way to learn how it works ??

No easy way at all, but we do expect the entire world to switch to imperial and do it immediately.

Mixups between metric and imperial is the reason the Hubble telescope was screwed up the first time around.

Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 01:23:07 PM »
why continue using it if you cant handle it by yourself  ;D

how is the farenheit system working , thats my biggest issue right now

weights and volumes Ive learned a little , but it difficult
Im too old to try to learn this stuff  ;D
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Soot

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 02:18:52 PM »
Quote
why continue using it if you cant handle it by yourself
It's been in place so long that it's hard to get people to change. I learned the metric system in school, so it makes seance to me.
I have to own wrenches, sockets and other tools for both systems, that gets pricy.
One system would be better.

Offline Spuddy

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 02:20:32 PM »
I am 44 years old. When I was in grade school we got cheap wooden "rulers" marked in millimeters, centimeters.  They taught us how the sytem worked and then said that the US would adopt it in the next five to ten years.  Now 35 years later we still use the english system and I've got more wrenches than one shoud have.

Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 02:28:31 PM »
he he he
how about farenheit then , please explain for me
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

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Offline 1Southpaw

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It's part of our English Heritage
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 02:32:05 PM »
When Canada switched , Farmers were grumbling  about the system . Couldn't figure out how to calibrate sprayers , mix chemicals , measure land . It's 30 plus years later and the old boys in their 80's are still grumbling .  The medical profession has always been metric . When was the last time any one got a shot with .?? ounces ?  Always CC's  , Live stock the same way .
Left Handed people are in their right mind .

Offline Double D

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 02:47:22 PM »
is there any special reason to continue to use such an difficult and unlogical system when even most american scientists and the armed forces use the metric system
it was because someone mixed in some non metreic unit in an calculation nasa lost that thing who should have landed on mars 1999

but back to the main issue , is there any easy way to learn how it works ??

When working with in the U.S. use inches and feet.  When dealing with a historic items use the units used for the item when created.  When dealing with modern units outside the U.S. use the Metric.  

It is no easier to learn inches and feet when you have been brought up using metric, than it is to use  metric when you been using inches and feet all your life.  Everything in our life is inches and feet. Food we buy, temperature, clothing sizes, everything in this country isinches and feet.

When we lived in South Africa every thing around us was metric. We learned what a liter and km and Celsius.  We lived metric.  We had metric measuring devices.  

I long ago gave up trying to understand why we stick with inches, but I understand the basics of the metric systems.

The only time I have ever encountered any problem between the two is when converting.  You can compare them mathematically, but they are not interchangeable.

To make things more  understandable here and else where in my life,  when I need the metric I use  http://joshmadison.com/software/convert-for-windows/ which I keep on my start menu and desk top.  I think I first saw this when Tim posted it here some years ago.  I have used in my work and in my play.  

The metric system was championed by Napoleon in effort for french domination of the world.  Glad he didn't get his hand on the sun.  Can you imagine 10 hour days



Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 02:53:57 PM »
10 days in a week and 100 min to an hour 

he sure had ideas
Dan Pettersson
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 03:03:59 PM »
   Dan,    Here is a formula for converting Tf to Tc,  Temperature Fahrenheit to Temperature Celsius:

                       Tc = (5/9)*(Tf-32); Tc = temperature in degrees Celsius, Tf = temperature in degrees Fahrenheit

So, if one of these 'backward' Americans says,  "It sure is a 'flys along the bottom of a tent rope day' today at 98 degrees", you will know how to figure out what that means in Celsius.

     What is your second most problematic one?

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Fahrenheit and Celsius (centigrade)
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 03:04:13 PM »
According to legend, Fahrenheit invented the first thermometer.  He set the zero point at the point it read on what he thought was the coldest day that ever could be (somewhere in Holland, I think.)  It appears that the size of degrees was arbitrarily selected.  It turned out that the freezing point of water was 32° and the boiling point was 212°.

The centigrade scale was invented much later (by Swedish astronomer Anders Celsius) after enough time passed that people could get upset with the Fahrenheit scale.  Again it was organized around earthly issues.  The Kelvin (centigrade degrees) or Rankine (Fahrenheit degrees) scales with zero at absolute zero make more sense since various heat related calculations can be done using the temperatures directly rather than having to include constants to adjust for position relative to absolute zero.

We stay with the old units because we are comfortable with them.  We know that 100° is a very hot day while 38° is pretty cold.  The Celsius temperatures of the same feel are 38° and 3°. 

The math is °F = (°C * 1.8 ) + 32 and °C = (°F - 32)/1.8

The old system is a kind of natural selection system.  If you can't learn it, you don't cut it.   ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline GGaskill

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Re: metric vs imperial systems--why we keep the old one
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 03:12:15 PM »
There is a vast investment in imperial based machinery in American industry.  Changing it all to metric just for the hell of it makes no sense.  On top of that, there are industrial standards that govern things such as thread pitches versus fastener diameters.  Even within the metric world, there are several differing ones.  So switching to the use of metric measurements does not make everyone in the world compatible in everything.

One of the side effects of the loss of US manufacturing to China will be a greater use of metric fasteners and related things.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Soot

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 03:13:52 PM »
Quote
why is the fractionals used when its almost impossible to use them for calculations ??

I "cheated" my way through school by converting fractions to decimals, then converting the answers back to fractions. Worked most of the time.

Quote
how about Fahrenheit then , please explain for me

I don't think it's possible to explain that one other than water freezes at 32f and boils at 212f.
When I see temperature as Celsius, it makes no scenes to me.

Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 03:16:41 PM »
tracy ,   ;D  5/9   :o
where do I find that on the calculator  :o

well the weights and the volumes I got a little difficulties with
especially if you combine them to volume weights

thats why I must think twice when DD said you got heavier lead in usa than in sweden   ;D
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline GGaskill

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 03:20:11 PM »
why are the fractions used when its almost impossible to use them for calculations ??

I think this dates from the days before electronic calculators.  Substitute 1.8 for 9/5 and 1/1.8 for 5/9 for use with a decimal calculator.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Fahrenheit and Celsius (centigrade)
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 03:34:41 PM »


The math is °F = (°C * 1.8 ) +32 and °C = (°F - 32)/1.8
 

 
                       Tc = (5/9)*(Tf-32); Tc = temperature in degrees Celsius, Tf = temperature in degrees Fahrenheit

 

Another reason for using http://joshmadison.com/software/convert-for-windows/



Click on Temperature tab select farenheit and celsius, type in Tracy's 98 degrees and see 36.66667 degrees C.


Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 04:00:06 PM »
I see that some of this has been covered, but here you go:

I suppose I'll start with length, since that's typically the first form of measurement devised for any system.



The lengths of the US customary system of measurement were taken from the older English system, and were originally defined as measurements of the human body.  Specifically, they were originally established by an "average" man's measurements, and since that meant the "average" had to be established, this became the measurements of the reigning king of England, and the measurements were defined thusly:

Quote
The English word inch comes from Latin uncia meaning "one twelfth part" (in this case, one twelfth of a foot); the word ounce (one twelfth of a troy pound) has the same origin.

In some other languages, the word for "inch" is similar to or the same as the word for "thumb"...

Given the etymology of the word "inch", it would seem that the inch is a unit derived from the foot, but this was probably only so in Latin and in Roman times. In English, there are records of fairly precise definitions for the size of an inch (whereas the definitions for the size of a foot are probably anecdotal), so it seems that the foot was then defined as 12 times this length. For example, the old English ynche was defined (by King David I of Scotland in about 1150) as the width of an average man's thumb at the base of the nail...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch

1 foot (ft. or ') = the length of the king's foot.  Foot, was the original base measurement of length in the UCS system.
1 inch (in. or ") = the widgth of the king's thumb measured at the base of the nail.  This practically became the base of the system, and the foot became 12 inch measures.
1 yard (yd.) = the length from the middle of the nose to the end of the outstretched arm...of the king.
1 mile (mi.) = 5280 feet or 1760 yards.  The reason for this is below:

Quote
In Roman times, the unit of long distance mille passuum (literally "a thousand paces" in Latin, with one pace being equal to two steps) was first used by the Romans and denoted a distance of 1,000 paces or 5,000 Roman feet, and is estimated to correspond to about 1,479 meters (1,617 yards). This unit is now known as the Roman mile.[38] This unit spread throughout the Roman empire, often with modifications to fit local systems of measurements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile
The UCS mile was based on the same concept of roughly 5000 feet, though their yard was based on 2 feet rather than 3, which explains the difference in yards.

Of course, since these all varied every time the king was replaced, they came up with various ways to set a standard, and the standard was set not by what may be thought to be logical, but by the most reproducible means of obtaining the same measurement as the standard of the time (the then reigning king's measurements).  These are now defined according to the metric system (which makes absolutely no sense if you think about it, but allows for undeviated conversion).

When you see partial inches, you typically see them in terms of halves, so 1/2", 1/4"...1/32", 1/64".  This is why drill bits in the UCS system are often designated as such.  It's also why you don't understand the temperature scale:

Quote
According to a letter [Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit] wrote to his friend Herman Boerhaave,[8] his scale was built on the work of Ole Rømer, whom he had met earlier. In Rømer’s scale, the two fixed reference points are that brine also freezes at 0 degrees and water boils at 60 degrees. He observed that, on this scale, water freezes at 7.5 degrees. Fahrenheit multiplied each value by four in order to eliminate fractions and increase the granularity of the scale (resulting in 30 and 240 degrees, respectively). He then re-calibrated his scale between the freezing point of water and normal human body temperature (which he observed to be 96 degrees); he adjusted the scale so that the melting point of ice would be 32 degrees, so that 64 intervals would separate the two, allowing him to mark degree lines on his instruments by simply bisecting the interval six times (since 64 is 2 to the sixth power).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farenheit

Does that help it make any sense?

Mass is a little more interesting.  Most Americans don't know what the base system of UCS mass is...but we, who use blackpowder know it is the grain.

1 grain (gr) = the average weight of a single grain of barley and wheat
1 pound (lb - more correctly lbm - to identify it as pound mass instead of pound force) = 7000 grains

Now it can get a little confusing.  Remember that little excerpt fromt he length citation that mentioned ounce is derived from the Latin word uncia meaning 1/12?  It does mean 1/12 of a pound - in the troy system, which is now only used in gemology.

In UCS,

1 ounce (oz) = 1/16 pound

I cannot find a specific reference (or remember anything specific) as to the origin of the UCS ounce, but suspect it is directly related to our love of fractions in base 2 (1/16 is 1 pound halved 4 times).

You complain about not understanding why we continue to use our archaic system of measurement - and I agree with you, but now you can see that it is based on direct relationships of everyday objects that the average person could observe.  The SI (or metric) system is is also based on a directly observable relationship - and it's superiority over the UCS system lies in the object that it is based on - water.  Most of it is defined according to water's attributes - weight, mass, volume, size, and temperature.  Using such a universally available object for a base made it superior to all other systems of measurement and combining it with a base 10 numerical structure makes it convenient to use.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 04:00:55 PM »
   Dan,   5/9=.56   Use .56 and you won't be wrong.  Example .56 x 98 deg. F.-32 deg. F.= .56 x 66=36.96 rounded to 37 degrees Celsius.

Simple, eh?  As soon as you realize that, as far as linear measurement goes, the metric system cannot do anything that the Decimal Inch system cannot do, you will be converting to Imperial.  ;D ;D

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 04:18:30 PM »
Inch based lead screws and slide rules and Newtonian physics put men on the moon.  That should be good enough.    ;D
GG
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 04:32:24 PM »
I edited my response to include the explanation for mile.

As far as working with fractions, they're actually very easy, and we do it all the time, often without thinking about it.  I won't get into details, but having a good grasp of fractions also allows you to understand using different base systems for counting.  For instance, we use a base 10 (decimal), in which there are 10 digits: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.  Our computers use a base 2 (binary): 0,1, which you can interpret as open/closed (circuit), true/false, etc.  Essentially, computers "think" by following a chain of "if" - "then"  statements.  Understanding the use of fractions makes it easier to understand how this works.

For instance:
1/2 + 2/3 = 2*(1/2 + 2/3) = 3/6 + 4/6 = 7/6

Knowing that there are 2 different bases, you have to put the two numbers into the same base in order to compare them.  

Similarly I can count to 1023 on my two hands using binary, where if you place your hands palm up in front of you, your thumb on your right = 1, right index finger = 2, right middle = 4, right ring = 8, right pinkie = 16, left pinkie = 32, left ring = 64, left middle = 128, left index = 256, and left thumb = 512.  If you close your hands, you have 0, and if you open a finger you add the above designation, so all fingers open would be 512+256+128+64+32+16+8+4+2+1 = 1023, or 2^10 - 1 (to have the zero).

Using other bases is also common in other cultures, such as Chinese

Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 04:52:57 PM »
I give up   ;D
please   NOOOOOOO   more
Dan Pettersson
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better safe than sorry

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 04:56:02 PM »
Did we lose you somewhere, Dan?  I'd be happy to break some of it down (or expound on it) for you.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 05:00:12 PM »
No More?

We would miss the story of how the width of the railroad track spacing was derived!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline barefiel76

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 05:03:27 PM »
I have actually figured out the universal system. Oddly enough most people can relate to it. If you are sweating, it's hot. If you sit on a leather seat in a car and a layer of skin comes off, it's really hot. Same could be said for cold. You jump in a lake and your teeth chatter, it's cold. You lose a layer of skin touch your door handle, it's really cold. You get the idea!

My wife refers to things as a "butt load". Not sure why...

"Do you really need a butt load of lead, to make a butt load of cannon balls, for a cannon that you have no place to shoot?" The answer is always yes and the reason is incase of zombies. That is also beside the point.

Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 05:03:48 PM »
lost ??   :o   ooooohhhh nooooo
just exploring   ;D

wasnt it tropico who used that line ??

now I learned why you got your civil war
it wasnt about slavery
it was about if 1 oz should be 1/12 or 1/16   ???
Dan Pettersson
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better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 05:04:39 PM »
Good job Dan, you lit a fire on this board, I think this has been the hottest topic we had on here in months!!!

Offline dan610324

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 05:07:35 PM »
cw , that one I know
its 2 horses asses wide

its the same with the boosting rockets for the space shuttle
they are also 2 horses asses in diameter
Dan Pettersson
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: metric vs imperial systems
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 05:09:40 PM »
ahhh yes 1/12 or 1/16 shows good understanding of the system.  (as well as the dimensions dating back to Roman times.)

I do like the systems of measurement by expereince and emotion.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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