Author Topic: A Reliable American made .45 ACP pistol....our new $ 149 Hi-Point .........  (Read 4778 times)

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Offline E Texas Minuteman

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We're very pleased with the performance of our .45 ACP Hi-Point pistol, an excellent value for the money.

With a polymer frame, lifetime no questions asked warranty, American made for only $ 150, it makes handgun ownership affordable.

Many folks shy away from more expensive guns, but this reasonable buy-in brings the ability to help arm others, neighbors, co-workers, mom, dad or sister with an effective defense round, the .45 ACP, without breaking the bank.

I bought their 9mm carbine on a lark, (already having a Marlin Camp 9 carbine since '92), was so impressed by the function, simplicty & rock solid functionality of it, I decided to try their C9 and this .45 ACP pistol.

I'm getting my wife & two older children taking IDPA - International Defensive Pistol Association classes, so the Hi-Point Pistols were the answer to how to arm everyone on a budget !

$ 150 ea plus $ 22 for a fobus paddle holster + $ 10 for a Hogue Universal Grip-all

Just a heads up for those who may need to equip themselves & others, on a budget.  

FWIW !!    Best Regards,    E Texas Minuteman

Remarkable, too, are the reviews:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/hipoint_100605/

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_55/ai_n31392896/

BudsGunShop.com:  http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_268/products_id/48342    28 reviews 

Become a modern Minuteman.....defend Liberty.....reclaim our American Heritage......train as a Rifleman.....www.AppleseedInfo.org

The Sons of Liberty declared:   "No King, but King Jesus"   

Patrick Henry called the Revolution: "The holy cause of Liberty !" 

The answer to 1984, is 1776 ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vq-vY4I3c

Offline Savage

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Uh-------------you do know this is the 1911 forum. The Hi Point forum is down the page a bit.

Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline E Texas Minuteman

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Uh-------------you do know this is the 1911 forum. The Hi Point forum is down the page a bit.

Savage

Sorry, didn't notice a separate forum for Hi-Point Firearms.   

I guess I figured as the forum heading was ".45 ACP / 1911", that other pistols which chamber the .45 ACP were welcome to be discussed here as well.

Not so ? 

Best Regards,   E Texas Minuteman   ;)
Become a modern Minuteman.....defend Liberty.....reclaim our American Heritage......train as a Rifleman.....www.AppleseedInfo.org

The Sons of Liberty declared:   "No King, but King Jesus"   

Patrick Henry called the Revolution: "The holy cause of Liberty !" 

The answer to 1984, is 1776 ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vq-vY4I3c

Offline williamlayton

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Well, if it is discussion you want, it would better be done in the other forum.
For the purpose of making a statement, it is fine too do it here.
You will find fewer supporters for the Hi-point here than you might wish.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline E Texas Minuteman

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I suppose I'm an anti-collectivist; I enjoy the interaction. 

Am I mistaking the purpose of this forum, being labeled: .45 ACP/ 1911, does that mean either (any pistol chambered in .45 acp) or 1911,  or it must be a .45 ACP & 1911 (which would seem redundant).

thanks,  E TM

Become a modern Minuteman.....defend Liberty.....reclaim our American Heritage......train as a Rifleman.....www.AppleseedInfo.org

The Sons of Liberty declared:   "No King, but King Jesus"   

Patrick Henry called the Revolution: "The holy cause of Liberty !" 

The answer to 1984, is 1776 ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vq-vY4I3c

Offline Keith L

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Not speaking for the group, but I like 1911s for their precision, good triggers, quality manufacture, etc.  I think a well made 1911 is everything that Hi-Points are not.  Kind of reminds me of the Byco that I bought from one of my workers a few years ago so she wouldn't shoot her husband and wind up in jail.  It would get the job done, but nothing I am particularly proud of.  I did look at Hi-Points and even shot one.  I didn't need another cheap pistol.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline E Texas Minuteman

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Not speaking for the group, but I like 1911s for their precision, good triggers, quality manufacture, etc.  I think a well made 1911 is everything that Hi-Points are not.  Kind of reminds me of the Byco that I bought from one of my workers a few years ago so she wouldn't shoot her husband and wind up in jail.  It would get the job done, but nothing I am particularly proud of.  I did look at Hi-Points and even shot one.  I didn't need another cheap pistol.

Good thing that you have what you truly need.  I'm sure you'd wish that for others, right ?

I love quality too, many of my guns are 'finer' than the hi-point.  At this time, many are 'budget challenged', however, and might appreciate that they can buy an affordable pistol, one that will not interfere with their ability to provide for their other needs.

My Hi Points (9mm carbine, .45 & 9mm Pistol) have fed ammo reliably & shot well - as well as my finer guns.  No they're not as perfect in the details, but they sure do work & go bang every time I ask them to.  The other reviews bear that out as well - so I was hoping to raise awareness of their affordability & availability, perhaps a gun for a college student or neighbor who needs practical affordable protection.  Having a Hi-Point will cure one of gun snobbery, that is sure !   ;)
'

Become a modern Minuteman.....defend Liberty.....reclaim our American Heritage......train as a Rifleman.....www.AppleseedInfo.org

The Sons of Liberty declared:   "No King, but King Jesus"   

Patrick Henry called the Revolution: "The holy cause of Liberty !" 

The answer to 1984, is 1776 ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vq-vY4I3c

Offline Mikey

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Minuteman:  This is the 45 acp/1911 forum and you are welcomed to post, period, however not all 1911s are 45s......

As to the High Point Forum - yep, down in the rifle forum section but when I read through that forum for discussions and posts on your handgun I mostly saw posts on the High Point Carbines.

Keith:  if she was gonna shoot her husband with it he probably deserved it.  It was nice of you to try and keep her out of jail but I hope she was able to defend herself otherwise.

"Am I mistaking the purpose of this forum, being labeled: .45 ACP/ 1911, does that mean either (any pistol chambered in .45 acp) or 1911,  or it must be a .45 ACP & 1911 (which would seem redundant)."  No, you are not mistaken, except a bit for the part about redundancy but you need to expect some real heat from some of us 1911 advocates when it comes to High Points; but hey, even guys who use Sigs and Glocks get heat from the guys who prefer the 1911 style pistol, so you are in good company.  Welcome aboard......

"At this time, many are 'budget challenged', however, and might appreciate that they can buy an affordable pistol, one that will not interfere with their ability to provide for their other needs."  Excellent point Minuteman, excellent point indeed. 

Now, if you can post a picture of a good target shot with that High Point that might help.  Also, does anyone know if the designer of the High Point firearm system was a former patient at the High Point Psychiatric Hosptial in Port Chester, NY???  Just askin'.....



Offline E Texas Minuteman

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Minuteman:  This is the 45 acp/1911 forum and you are welcomed to post, period, however not all 1911s are 45s......

Thanks for extending your welcome !  Not trying to flame or start a flame war at all, I just believe that we can all have various reasons for liking the .45 ACP caliber, of whatever make & exact design.  I know how very excellent most model 1911's are (shot several of them over the years), thus have a high respect level both that basic design AND the .45 ACP caliber.  I've been mainly focusing on Rifles of late, thus had a minimal amount of $$$ for pistol purchases.  I was delighted to find a .45 ACP chambered, affordable gun.  Though I could sell a rifle and thus fund a 1911 purchase (I still may...) I enjoy challenges and after reading the surprising # & enthusiasm level of HPP owners in this caliber, I though: what have I got to lose by trying it out ?

As to the High Point Forum - yep, down in the rifle forum section but when I read through that forum for discussions and posts on your handgun I mostly saw posts on the High Point Carbines.

True, mainly carbine talk down there.  I enjoy my 9mm HP carbine, too, but am more excited about the pistols currently, and like you didn't see much talk there about it.

"Am I mistaking the purpose of this forum, being labeled: .45 ACP/ 1911, does that mean either (any pistol chambered in .45 acp) or 1911,  or it must be a .45 ACP & 1911 (which would seem redundant)."  No, you are not mistaken, except a bit for the part about redundancy but you need to expect some real heat from some of us 1911 advocates when it comes to High Points; but hey, even guys who use Sigs and Glocks get heat from the guys who prefer the 1911 style pistol, so you are in good company.  Welcome aboard......

Cool.  I can appreciate both Unity & Diversity - it's everywhere in God's great world.  None of our fingers are exactly a copy of the one beside it, but that makes them all work together even better, right ?  I think my gun closet is about the same....In fact, I don't have a single 'two' of any gun, rifles or pistols - some folks like something & buy 3 of them (not necessarily bad, eh ?) but I tend to own slightly off popular guns, things that don't quite fit the 'category', and as soon as I buy one flavor (brand or caliber) I want to try something else.....


"At this time, many are 'budget challenged', however, and might appreciate that they can buy an affordable pistol, one that will not interfere with their ability to provide for their other needs."  Excellent point Minuteman, excellent point indeed. 

Thank you.  Similarly to the "The West wasn't won, with a registered gun..." observation; Our lives, liberty or property aren't necessarily defended most usually by expensive gun safe "queens", as much as the reliable, well used long or side arm with which we have a intimate working familiarity.......be it the old 1911 our grandpappy used at Iwo, or your favorite range gun, or my 'hasn't missed a shot yet' budget friendly Hi-Point .45 ACP, or your super custom $$$ model 1911.

Now, if you can post a picture of a good target shot with that High Point that might help. 

With several boxes thru it, to 'wear in & test' function, that phase to sight it in and get some target performance is almost here. 

To this point, I've mainly shot at steel targets.  I'll punch some paper & report back on accuracy.   I'm taking part in an IDPA club shoot later this month - will test either the .45 ACP or 'little brother' HP C9mm pistol in that capacity...


Also, does anyone know if the designer of the High Point firearm system was a former patient at the High Point Psychiatric Hosptial in Port Chester, NY???  Just askin'.....

It's a very strong possibility !  And if so, perhaps it was designed, particularly, to help those who've undergone forced institutionalization, to break free.  Considering that they elites who run things today THINK that we 2nd Amendment guys deserve to be Institutionalized..... 

- re Robert Heinlien's sagacious observation: "When the insane are running things, the sane MUST go to the hospital...." - this connection you make, Mikey, may have yet wider application !


Become a modern Minuteman.....defend Liberty.....reclaim our American Heritage......train as a Rifleman.....www.AppleseedInfo.org

The Sons of Liberty declared:   "No King, but King Jesus"   

Patrick Henry called the Revolution: "The holy cause of Liberty !" 

The answer to 1984, is 1776 ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vq-vY4I3c

Offline uncledub

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You are missing the point here.  What the guys are trying to say is that if we want to discuss Hi-Points, we will use the Hi-Point forum.  We use this one because we want to discuss 1911s. 
Diversity works only if both sides want it, not because someone thinks we would be better off for it.
I respect your opinions and think that all people should have the option of arming themselves the best that their finances will allow.  But please respect our opinions reciprocally. Did you notice that no one really had anything to say about the gun mentioned.
Young guys should listen to Old guys, they know stuff.

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Offline FourBee

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Quote
Posted by: uncledub  But please respect our opinions reciprocally. Did you notice that no one really had anything to say about the gun mentioned.

+1  8) ;D
Enjoy your rights to keep and bear arms.

Offline sachel.45

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i think the name needs to change instead of .45 acp/1911 it should just say 1911
common sense is slowly becoming uncommon

Offline uncledub

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Like Mikey said, not all 1911s are .45ACP. I see no need to change the name. If one will read the entries you will get the drift of the group. 9mils and 38 super sometimes show up but mostly the 45.
Young guys should listen to Old guys, they know stuff.

NEF 45-70 w/ 20 ga 22" barrel
NEF Pardner Pump Protector

Offline williamlayton

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I read the thought about budget and tend too get a little agitated--not mad, just argumenative.
I think about big, flat screened, HD TV's and wonder about folks talking budgets.
I would also argue that when serving as a self-protection-I wonder about budgets being aimed in this discussion.
Now, if you think this is a good weapon for plinking--why are you bringing up budgets, when a gun for plinking should be on the bottom of the food chain (as should Big Screen TV's).
Now as far as esthetics are concerned--may I put this politely--a lot of folks like fat women, but they are not pretty, I am thinking of Glocks a lot when I make this statement, but, Hi-Points are lower on the list than any I can think of.
Would I own a Hi-point if someone gave me one?--I would love the offer--but--no thanks.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline gs50401

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I think this forum is for all 45's.      I own a couple 1911's but I am not a snob.

Offline uncledub

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You may be correct but I doubt that you get much discussion on anything other than 1911 based pistols from any of us snobs.
Young guys should listen to Old guys, they know stuff.

NEF 45-70 w/ 20 ga 22" barrel
NEF Pardner Pump Protector

Offline Lloyd Smale

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I own as many 1911s as anyone here. I dont own a highpoint but I dont bash people who do or think im one iota better then them. the guy bought a handgun he could afford. It goes bang. So why if he wants to show it here do some of you that think your better then him give him ^^^^ about it. I could read the 45acp/1911 to mean that the only thing that can be dicussed here is 1911s in 45acp. No 9mms 40s 10s ect.
blue lives matter

Offline mdi

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I've stayed away from this discussion because I really don't have that much interest in Hi-Point arms. The first thing that turned me off is the O.P. seemed like an advertisement for the 45 ACP Hi-Point pistol, so after the first time I read it, I got out. I thought someone would bring that up!

I just re-read it and YES, it is an ad, for that reason I think it doesn't belong...

Offline williamlayton

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1911 pattern pistols come in a variety calibers.
It is the header that determines that, if it is job specific, it should be about 1911's.
I have seen and have posted, myownself, about Sigs, which are not 1011 pattern pistols, at this sigh.
Let's not get our panties in a wad about a Hi-point being posted here.
Now I don't own one or would not own one if given too me.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Lloyd Smale

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I agree the links to buds gunshop are a bit questionalbe.
I've stayed away from this discussion because I really don't have that much interest in Hi-Point arms. The first thing that turned me off is the O.P. seemed like an advertisement for the 45 ACP Hi-Point pistol, so after the first time I read it, I got out. I thought someone would bring that up!

I just re-read it and YES, it is an ad, for that reason I think it doesn't belong...
blue lives matter

Offline mrussel

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Like Mikey said, not all 1911s are .45ACP. I see no need to change the name. If one will read the entries you will get the drift of the group. 9mils and 38 super sometimes show up but mostly the 45.

 Ive always thought of the 1911 as "The 45 automatic",of course "A 45 automatic in 38 super" sounds kinda weird. For a dirt cheap defensive gun,I would have to say look at the RIA 1911 GI model. 389 for a damn good gun with awesome customer service,but there are cheaper things out there,that do go into the Hi-Point range. S&W was running a special on the sigma for awhile for instance,they typically went for 350 and S&W was offering a 50 dollar rebate or two free mags (Dont know if its still running or not). I don't like plastic guns and all,but a Smith for 300 bucks cant be beat if your on a budget. If you need to go cheaper than that,Id say a 200 buck Walmart shotgun is the way to go. (Or 120 dollars if you are willing to live with a single shot instead of a pump. You only get one shot but its one heck of a shot) Still I see the point of the High Point. While Im not going to ask how good it is,I am very curious how bad it is. Is it just unreliable,is there a way to fix it or work around it,or is it going to blow your hand off? (leave it around for the BG to pick up and hope it explodes in his face when he tries to shoot you?)

Offline williamlayton

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Too be honest----the reports of reliability are pretty good.
Life span may be shorter--I don't know.
My objections are on several levels:
It is not a 1911.
It is just another semi-auto of the plastic genre.
It is ugly--even for a plastic gun.
I am not convinced that, during the development, it could not have been made more appealing for the same money.
Did I mention it is a plastic gun?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline 1911crazy

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I like them all but i haven't accepted the plastic pistols yet.  I had a new husqvarna 2100 chainsaw (100cc's) in the late 70's and as a logger i lost one saw to it being late in the day with one more tree to make the load it got caught in the back cut and smashed into a few pieces.  With that said the space age plastics didn't break but some of the metal did.  I was shocked to see what this giant tree did to my $700 saw but the plastics held up so maybe there is something to plastics.......

We owe a lot of new stuff to NASA for sure.

Offline mrussel

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I like them all but i haven't accepted the plastic pistols yet.  I had a new husqvarna 2100 chainsaw (100cc's) in the late 70's and as a logger i lost one saw to it being late in the day with one more tree to make the load it got caught in the back cut and smashed into a few pieces.  With that said the space age plastics didn't break but some of the metal did.  I was shocked to see what this giant tree did to my $700 saw but the plastics held up so maybe there is something to plastics.......

We owe a lot of new stuff to NASA for sure.

 The properties of plastics should work well (and most of the major manufacturers think it does). It can flex quite a bit more than metal without failing which can be a good thing. As for the highpoint,I dont think longevity is an issue. If it shoots reliably (and I dont know if it does or does not) then if it fails after 1000 or 2000 rounds,which is absurdly short for a quality gun,I would still say it does its job. Someone who spends 150 on a gun isnt going to be shooting a lot of $20 a box ammo through it anyway. Honestly,I would suggest a 9mm for someone in that situation though. I assume Hi-Point makes something in that price range in that caliber. The reason I say 9mm is that your going to be able to practice more. Twice as much actually,since you can get 9mm for half as much. Thats going to give you more of a chance of actually hitting your target,and as we all know,people hit with a 9mm are much more likely to die than people that are missed by a 45acp.

 THere is one part of me that says,its relatively easy to get to the point with a pistol where you can get many of the rounds on target most of the time. As such,the 9mm makes sense as ammo is cheap,around 10 a box a Walmart,so you can practice enough to get to that point.

 There is another part of me that says that size of the round is not actually as important as being able to hit the target with a very high degree of accuracy. That part of me says,get a 22. While its almost the worst choice of caliber,its dirt cheap. You can buy 500 rounds for 15 dollars at Walmart and shoot all day until you get really good. The argument goes,with a 22 you can practice ALOT. That practice means there is no reason you should not be able to hit your target all the time. (of course in a real gun fight its going to be much harder,but still,no matter how you slice it,your going to hit more with the 22) Some might argue that a 22 "isn't likely to stop an attacker" but the idea is 10 (as opposed to a single one) of them rapid fired into a 2" group is going to ruin someones day while all the 45s and 9mms in the world dont do any good at all if you miss your target.

 I really dont know which to think is better. I do know that someone who buys a gun for 150 dollars because its all they can afford,cant afford 5000 rounds of 9mm but might be able to spend over a years time 150 dollars for 5000 rounds of 22lr (figure a trip to the range and a box of 500 22lr every month which is actually 6000).

Offline Keith L

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While your logic is interesting, and most likely correct in general, all the practice in the world won't give anyone a guarantee of ten rounds in two inches in a personal defense situation.  It is the case, however, the more you shoot the more you will be able to use "muscle memory" to get the job done.  There will not be time to think.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Savage

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While I don't know anyone who owns one, the general consensus seems to be: "The guns work" Any gun is better than none. I agree that anyone who's budget requires a firearm purchase in that price range, will never shoot it enough to find out how durable it is. The only zinc alloy pistols I have owned were cap pistols, I don't see that changing.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline tacklebury

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We're very pleased with the performance of our .45 ACP Hi-Point pistol, an excellent value for the money.

With a polymer frame, lifetime no questions asked warranty, American made for only $ 150, it makes handgun ownership affordable.

Many folks shy away from more expensive guns, but this reasonable buy-in brings the ability to help arm others, neighbors, co-workers, mom, dad or sister with an effective defense round, the .45 ACP, without breaking the bank.

I bought their 9mm carbine on a lark, (already having a Marlin Camp 9 carbine since '92), was so impressed by the function, simplicty & rock solid functionality of it, I decided to try their C9 and this .45 ACP pistol.

I'm getting my wife & two older children taking IDPA - International Defensive Pistol Association classes, so the Hi-Point Pistols were the answer to how to arm everyone on a budget !

$ 150 ea plus $ 22 for a fobus paddle holster + $ 10 for a Hogue Universal Grip-all

Just a heads up for those who may need to equip themselves & others, on a budget.  

FWIW !!    Best Regards,    E Texas Minuteman

Remarkable, too, are the reviews:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/hipoint_100605/

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_55/ai_n31392896/

BudsGunShop.com:  http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_268/products_id/48342    28 reviews 



Appreciate the information. 8)  I'm budget concious and it's nice to know that it is possible to still get a decent firearm at a reasonable price. 8)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline mrussel

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While your logic is interesting, and most likely correct in general, all the practice in the world won't give anyone a guarantee of ten rounds in two inches in a personal defense situation.  It is the case, however, the more you shoot the more you will be able to use "muscle memory" to get the job done.  There will not be time to think.

 There are no guarantees. Still,the chances of missing with a full magazine of 45+P if the only time you fired the gun was that one time at the range four years ago,is alot better than your chances of putting 3 or 4 or 5 rounds into a dinner plate sized area in an attackers chest from a gun,whatever the caliber you choose,that you practice with regularly. Whether they are .22 caliber or .45 caliber or anywhere in between,bullets that hit are far more effective than ones that don't. If you want to be able to land some hits on an attacker with enough reliability to protect your life, practice is going to be needed. If you want to miss,you don't have to worry about it. Most people,to spite what they think,are naturals at it. 

 I think it comes back to the advice of "Get the biggest caliber that you can control and shoot accurately".  If money comes into play,practice is going to factor in to that biggest caliber. For that matter, if money is an issue,a 9mm is alot better than a 45 OR a 380 as far as controllability because the ammo is a lot cheaper,so your going to be able to practice more and get better at using it. The more I think about it,the more I think that a 9mm is the way to go if your on a budget,unless your not even going to be able to afford ammo for that,in which case a 22 might really be better.

 My first choice for a cheap gun would the be the S&W sigma,or some of the Rugers. They go for around 300-350. I honestly hate the sigma. It feels awful, and I don't like their design of the trigger safety. I feel its a weak point and although I haven't heard of them failing,it just doesn't seem as strong as Glocks design (I hate Glocks too,but I admit they are great guns,I just don't like them) They are also DA only. Still,its a S&W and I expect that if I pull the trigger it will go bang,and I find when practicing (another reason to practice as much as you can) they will take care of it.

 My next choice (actually,it WAS my choice) is the RIA 1911GI. It goes for about 400. (Actually,I shelled out 50 more dollars for the tactical,but the GI is damn good) I actually would not recommend my choice for others though. A 1911,even an expensive one is a temperamental beast. You need to understand that and accept it if you expect it to work reliably for you. (As an example,Wilson mags with Hornady XTP +P rounds work great,factory mags don't work well with hollow points and Gold Dots don't really work well in any mag)

 Glocks are a good choice. They are not that expensive and damn good. Springfield makes some excellent weapons as well in that range. For the most part,Im just really worried about the Hi Point,they have such a terrible reputation. I want to see people saying they ran a few thousand rounds through it without any problems before I will accept its good.

Offline FourBee

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Posted by: mrussel:  if money is an issue,a 9mm is alot better than a 45 OR a 380 as far as controllability because the ammo is a lot cheaper,so your going to be able to practice more and get better at using it.
I guess I'm the odd-ball.  Since I've never shot a .380, I can't attest to its control-ablility.  On the other hand ~To me the .45 1911 doesn't have the sharp recoil, nor the deafing report as does the S&W 5906 9mm.   A choice between the two, the .45 wins, hands down. :D  
Enjoy your rights to keep and bear arms.

Offline sirgknight

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Texas Minuteman, you forgot to mention that you drive a Chevrolet!!!!!!!