Author Topic: harley to leave milwaukee? (Read 6260 times)

Buckskin · « **Reply #30 on:** May 15, 2010, 03:37:02 AM »

Harley isn't threatening to leave Milwaukee because they don't make a good product. They are leaving because they can't make a profit, they will be able to make the same quality bike in Oklahoma as they do in Milwaukee. Union, taxes, economy - those are the reasons to move. If they can knock 20% off of production costs and save the company from bankruptcy then they have to do it. The also don't have much for a new customer base, all the Harley riders are getting old.

myronman3 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 15, 2010, 03:50:06 AM »

which is yet another reason they were fools to axe buell.

Swampman · « **Reply #32 on:** May 15, 2010, 04:41:23 PM »

Harley quality is about 100 times what it was in the past. They still have to make a 20% profit every year. The Buell while very cool wasn't nearly fast enough for the money.

charles p · « **Reply #33 on:** May 15, 2010, 05:26:03 PM »

Most southern states are right to work states, meaning workers are not compelled to join a union (and why should they be). Many companies pay union scale in all their plants whether the workes have a union or not. When it comes time to upgade production machinery, the newest machines often go to the non-union plants. Pretty soon those plants become more productive even though hourly wages are the same. Then when their northern workers go on strike, the southern plants get all the work. With lower productivity, the northern plants become less desirable and unnecessary. Even corporate offices leave for similar reasons.

Now tell me again, why would you want to make your motorcycles in WI if you were in senior management or owner? Will people buy a new Harley at any cost? Where would you invest in your future?

Move where the work is.

wareagleguy · « **Reply #34 on:** May 16, 2010, 12:49:21 PM »

So, if Harley cuts the production cost by 20% then the price is gonna go down for the consumer? Anyone want to beat !

Dee · « **Reply #35 on:** May 16, 2010, 01:52:22 PM »

When I ran my own businesses, it was to make a profit. If I didn't make a profit, then there wasn't much sense in going to work. If Harley Davidson can go somewhere else and build bikes, and make better money, I don't blame them. Their the ones taking the financial risk.
When I ran my own trucking company, I found it amusing when companies want me to cut my rates. They wanted ME to cut MY rates so THEY could make more money. Now that's funny. When I was dealing in buying and selling single family homes, I once had a real estate salesman tell me I could lower the price on a home and he could sell it faster. I asked him if he wanted to cut his commission by say 2% to offset my loss a little. He got mad, and informed me he worked hard for his commission. I walked over to a saw horse and picked up an extra hammer and handed it to him. I told him if he would work about 5 hours a day for me for free, I would cut my price a little. He said his work wasn't free. I told him neither was mine and to hit the road.
It's kinda like a bar or restaurant that allows smokin. If you don't like it, don't go in there. If you don't like it cause Harley Davidson is movin their operation to save labor costs, don't buy the damn bike.

Get a Honda. This economy is a capitalist economy, based on profit and loss. If you don't like the local burger joint, start your own burger joint, or build your own motorcycle.JM2C

Swampman · « **Reply #36 on:** May 16, 2010, 04:10:36 PM »

Quote from: wareagleguy on May 16, 2010, 12:49:21 PM

So, if Harley cuts the production cost by 20% then the price is gonna go down for the consumer? Anyone want to beat !

They aren't going to cut production cost. They are going to try to maintain production cost and not raise prices so the investors can get their 20%.

Doug B. · « **Reply #37 on:** May 16, 2010, 05:25:54 PM »

Quote from: Dee on May 16, 2010, 01:52:22 PM

If you don't like it cause Harley Davidson is movin their operation to save labor costs, don't buy the damn bike. Get a Honda.

I drive a Honda..........

dorothy daily · « **Reply #38 on:** May 16, 2010, 05:44:04 PM »

mine is a kaw 1500 nomad

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #39 on:** May 17, 2010, 05:05:20 AM »

Where ever they go they will be easy to find , just follow the oil trail . Some say they mark their territory like a dog .

Swampman · « **Reply #40 on:** May 17, 2010, 05:28:10 AM »

That used to be true of all bikes. It hasn't been in years. If Japan could build an attractive bike, I'd consider it.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #41 on:** May 17, 2010, 06:33:14 AM »

Corporate income taxes are another issue not talked about much. The US has the highest corporate income tax in the world. China has no corporate income tax, plus they have lower cost labor. Here you might also have state corporate taxes and local if any. Wages could be the same as union, but benefits could be very different. A union member may get a pension as well as medical benefits after retirement, whereas a non-union may not get medical benefits, no pension, but may have a 401(k) plan only. Company is out a lot less money overall, especially with people living longer.

Buckskin · « **Reply #42 on:** May 18, 2010, 07:49:45 AM »

That is exactly the issue here. Wisconsin is one of the most anti-business States. Very high taxes to begin with and last year the Gov (Diamond Jim Doyle) added on combined reporting. That means that any office/factory that a company has outside of Wisconsin gets taxed as if it were in Wisconsin. That cost Harley something in the line of $25m last year. That on top of the union issues...

scootrd · « **Reply #43 on:** May 18, 2010, 09:11:28 AM »

I don't disagree with Dee.
Welcome to the unregulated, capitalistic (chase the mighty profit dollar above all else) society everyone loves and wants to protect. However you can run a business make a decent profit , keep all employed without sacrificing your integrity.
Even Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream (when Ben and Jerry were running it they only made 10 times more than lowest paid employees). Ben and Jerry bought Milk locally from local farmers. employed local folks , Gave large donations back into local communities where their facilities were.

When they finally sold to the large Unilever corp that only cares about profits, and their fat bonuses. You think the British Dutch Unilever conglom gives a crap about the local communities where they operate ...nope . They care about only about shareholders, lining their pockets and 1/4 driven profits. But I guess that's what companies do nowadays.

Sign of the times.

Like I said , I don't disagree with Dee but In my world there are more important things than money.
Making a decent profit ...sure... making a ridiculous amount without giving back and sacrificing your soul .. sorry just not for me.

Swampman · « **Reply #44 on:** May 18, 2010, 09:27:31 AM »

Yea things are a lot better when a King tells everyone how they are to live.

Avyctes · « **Reply #45 on:** May 18, 2010, 09:51:27 AM »

If they're leaving to escape the union more power to them. Who care's where they've resided historically? The bottom line is companies need to make money, and that's probably hard to do in that area with a union breathing down your neck wanting free health care for life plus outrageous incomes to boot, and wait! They don't want to contribute a dime to their own benefits. Give me a freaking break. Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy, nope not a drop. Over blown raises, outrageous Cadillac benefits packages. Those kinds of things are want drives the cost of automobiles through the roof, and obviously these bikes as well. I've seen unions hang in like vamps and drag companies down many times; they're leeches.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #46 on:** May 18, 2010, 09:51:39 AM »

I think the country was better off before all the mergers, buyouts, and take-overs. We do have laws reguarding monopolies, and mergers and buyouts were supposed to clear the SEC before it was allowed. That is why we only have about 3-4 major oil companies. I remember Gulf oil company, Texaco, Sinclair, Shell, Phillips 66, Chevron, BP, Amoco, before Exxon, Shell, and BP took over everything else. Had more competition and gas wars. Too many mergers. Even utilities have centralised their call in centers and closed local offices. Instead of being consumer or customer oriented, they are all bottom line oriented. I think this has resulted in too many "day traders" with home computers in the stock market driving the bottom line thinking instead of long term investors in a good company.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #47 on:** May 19, 2010, 05:00:34 PM »

Yes Swampy Woody Allen says B O should be made dictator of the USA. He would agree with your last statment.

Spanky · « **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2010, 05:55:12 PM »

Quote from: Avyctes on May 18, 2010, 09:51:27 AM

If they're leaving to escape the union more power to them. Who care's where they've resided historically? The bottom line is companies need to make money, and that's probably hard to do in that area with a union breathing down your neck wanting free health care for life plus outrageous incomes to boot, and wait! They don't want to contribute a dime to their own benefits. Give me a freaking break. Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy, nope not a drop. Over blown raises, outrageous Cadillac benefits packages. Those kinds of things are want drives the cost of automobiles through the roof, and obviously these bikes as well. I've seen unions hang in like vamps and drag companies down many times; they're leeches.

You hit the nail on the head my friend.

Spanky

scootrd · « **Reply #49 on:** May 20, 2010, 08:59:29 AM »

Quote from: Spanky on May 19, 2010, 05:55:12 PM

Quote from: Avyctes on May 18, 2010, 09:51:27 AM
If they're leaving to escape the union more power to them. Who care's where they've resided historically? The bottom line is companies need to make money, and that's probably hard to do in that area with a union breathing down your neck wanting free health care for life plus outrageous incomes to boot, and wait! They don't want to contribute a dime to their own benefits. Give me a freaking break. Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy, nope not a drop. Over blown raises, outrageous Cadillac benefits packages. Those kinds of things are want drives the cost of automobiles through the roof, and obviously these bikes as well. I've seen unions hang in like vamps and drag companies down many times; they're leeches.

You hit the nail on the head my friend.

Spanky

Which is all well and good. No disagreement there.
But does anyone here seriously think a move to lets say a non union state with lower labor costs will actually equate to lower retail pricing ? or more robust benefits for employees etc..,

I seriously doubt it. It will just allow more $$ in upper management pockets in the form of bonuses etc..or increased profits as a whole. But don't expect any residual company savings that may be incurred by such a move to equate to anything better for the HD employee of Joe public who is shopping.
Just my 2 cents.

Dee · « **Reply #50 on:** May 20, 2010, 09:24:33 AM »

It might actually allow them to stay in business. Or perhaps we need a government bailout for Harley Davidson.

The bottom line on this, is that this company is privately owned. The owners have the right to move the plant anywhere they wish. It is beyond me how folks somehow feel, that the owners are obligated to provide a certain group of people jobs and benefits. What a PRIVATELY OWNED company does as far as relocating, or not relocating is really none of any one's business, as long as they are not pushing anything off on someone else.
IF they move their plant, and IF they increase their profits, and IF they DON'T go down on their prices, and IF you don't like it, DON'T buy a Harley. Buy something else.
If at ANYTIME a union had came into my businesses and attempted in any way, to DICTATE ANYTHING to me the owner and actual RISK TAKER, I would have shut either business down, and let the union feed the employees and their families.
If you don't like a job, or the owner's methods, QUIT!

NO ONE in this world, "OWES" anyone outside their family "ANYTHING", other than common courtesy. They "DON'T" owe them a "JOB", and they "DON'T" owe them BENEFITS of any kind. It is foolishness to think other wise. Right now the government is faced with ANOTHER BAILOUT of the automotive unions lavish retirement packages.

They are spoiled rotten, and cryin like infants wantin the TAX PAYER to support them. It is nothing more that BLUE RIBBON WELFARE.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #51 on:** May 20, 2010, 11:48:23 AM »

Well Dee that just plain ain't PC .

BUt I agree 100%

Buckskin · « **Reply #52 on:** May 20, 2010, 12:11:51 PM »

I hate agreeing with Dee, but for this post I do nearly 100%. Actually we probably agree more than disagree, but both are so hard headed that it doesn't seem that way...But Harley is not privately owned, it's traded. I have some stock and it's been very profitable over the years and actually still is. But guess what, I'm not keeping it for sentimental reasons... Selling it when I think it's not a good risk anymore. I guess that puts me in the same category as Harley management.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #53 on:** May 20, 2010, 12:56:01 PM »

Well actually I like agreeing with Dee, dont do it often but I do like to.

He is right here and so are you Buckskin. Harley is doing what "they" think they need to do to survive just like we all do, or should!

Support Arizona!!!!

Spanky · « **Reply #54 on:** May 20, 2010, 04:53:14 PM »

Quote from: Dee on May 20, 2010, 09:24:33 AM

It might actually allow them to stay in business. Or perhaps we need a government bailout for Harley Davidson.
The bottom line on this, is that this company is privately owned. The owners have the right to move the plant anywhere they wish. It is beyond me how folks somehow feel, that the owners are obligated to provide a certain group of people jobs and benefits. What a PRIVATELY OWNED company does as far as relocating, or not relocating is really none of any one's business, as long as they are not pushing anything off on someone else.
IF they move their plant, and IF they increase their profits, and IF they DON'T go down on their prices, and IF you don't like it, DON'T buy a Harley. Buy something else.
If at ANYTIME a union had came into my businesses and attempted in any way, to DICTATE ANYTHING to me the owner and actual RISK TAKER, I would have shut either business down, and let the union feed the employees and their families.
If you don't like a job, or the owner's methods, QUIT!

NO ONE in this world, "OWES" anyone outside their family "ANYTHING", other than common courtesy. They "DON'T" owe them a "JOB", and they "DON'T" owe them BENEFITS of any kind. It is foolishness to think other wise. Right now the government is faced with ANOTHER BAILOUT of the automotive unions lavish retirement packages. They are spoiled rotten, and cryin like infants wantin the TAX PAYER to support them. It is nothing more that BLUE RIBBON WELFARE.

Perfect Dee... perfect.

Spanky

Default_Required · « **Reply #55 on:** May 23, 2010, 08:33:41 AM »

Well I would like to be the first to Welcome Harley to move to Arkansas , I'm sure we can offer them some nice location and alot better weather , Oh and we are the natural state. Some damn pretty country for long rural rides on those new bikes under R&D

Would'nt fight the opportunity to work for Ol' HD either

myronman3 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 24, 2010, 02:23:55 AM »

and now the news that polaris is moving to mexico. so much for the new american motorcycle. those damn unions.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #57 on:** May 24, 2010, 03:08:05 AM »

Polaris is non-union.......................

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #58 on:** May 24, 2010, 03:12:08 AM »

Wonder what will happen when no one in the USA makes enough to but stuff cause we lost our jobs ?

Buckskin · « **Reply #59 on:** May 24, 2010, 11:28:41 AM »

Actually Polaris is moving jobs out of Wisconsin to Minnesota and Iowa. And they are also building a factory in Mexico. That one you can place totally on Diamond Jim's combined reporting taxation. Just one of many to come. Hopefully most will be able to hold out until Scott Walker is elected as the new governor. He will repeal that tax asap and make Wisconsin business friendly again.