45-70 or 444?

[Flinch]

My old man bought a 45-70 guide gun and there is just something about it that makes me want one too. But im kind of leaning toward the 444 as I can shoot the same bullets that ive been loading in my 44 mag. I will be hunting deer and elk mostly. Im thinking that 240s would work great on deer and 300s or better would be a nice elk load. My question is, is the 45-70 THAT much more of a gun?  What are some other pros and cons of each?

[Mikey]

Flinch - many of us here love the 444 and I don't think I can accurately recall the number of discussions and posts regarding the 444 versus the 45-70, or which one is better.  As one gun writer put it when the new 450 Marlin came out - "If you have a 444 or a 45-70 you shouldn't consider getting rid of either for the 450".  Both calibers can be used equally well on all the game you wish to hunt, anywhere.  There are ammo makers that make stuff for both calibers that you can take to Africa for the really big'uns, so it boils down to your preference.

How so ever, yes you can shoot the same weight and diameter bullets from the 44 magnum that can be fired through the 444 but, and it is a big but at that, the bullets constructed for the 44 magnum become very frangible in the 444 and will not perform at the 444 velocities.  The only bullets that work in both the 44 magun and the 444 are the cast, gas checked bullets, although I'm not sure that applies to the 300grn Hornaday bullet.  

Some of the shooters here regularly use the 300-340 gn lead flat nose bullets in both the 44 and the 444.  It's a hoot, but I hope some of the others can chime in and add to this for better clarification for you.  HTH.  Mikey.

[bubba15301]

goe with the 45/70 more traditional and a better cartridge all around
good for anything on the north american continent
 

[Redhawk1]

I have the 444P Marlin in a guide gun. I had 2 other 444 Marlins. I just love the 444 round. I also shoot the 45-70 in a Shiloh Sharps and in an Encore. The 45-70 and 444 Marlin debate has been around as long as the round has been. (444) Yes the 45-70 has a larger case capacity and has more bullet selection. But the 444 with the correct constructed bullet for the 444 will take any game on the North American Continent. As mentioned before the 44 MAG bullets were designed for slower velocity. But a good Cast Performance bullet will work well in both. As for which one to choose it would be personal preference. And as for the 450 Marlin the 45-70 hand loaded will do anything it will.

[Super Rat]

I like the 444, but I think this is a case of the .45-70 being able to do anything the 444 can, but not visa-versa. Being able to use the same bullets in pistol and rifle is not that big an advantage. As mentioned, there is not really a bullet that works best, or is ideal in both the 444 and a .44 mag, so you'll be buying bullets especially for the rifle anyhow. I have found that the 265 Hornady will work well in both, as far as terminal performance, but that it does not shoot as accurately in my .44 mag pistols as I would like. It's designed for the 444, but will expand a little from a .44 mag. (really works well in a .44 mag rifle, but that's another story) As mentioned the pistol bullets really are too delicate for hunting in the 444, so at best you'd be using heavy rifle bullets in the pistol, which I guess is not a bad thing, but maybe not ideal, depending on how and what you use your pistol for. The 300 grain Hornady XTP's could be an exception, but I have never tried them.

Starting from scratch I'd go with the .45-70, it's "classic", big selection of cast bullets, VERY powerful hand loaded, but can be loaded down to any level you want. You can powder-puff it with 300 grain bullets, or go hog-wild with 500 grainers. The 350 grain bullets, loaded hot will give you as good a trajectory as the 444, and loaded to any power level are good all around kill anything bullets. I load the Hornady 350RN to about 1600-1700fps in my Marlin for all around deer and elk hunting. They can be pushed to 1900+fps pretty safely if you want more range/flatter trajectory, but I seem to shoot everything at about 100 yards.

For hunting with standard velocity .45-70 loads, the Speer 400 grain Flat Point really works good, really expands. Don't load it hot or it will blow up pretty good/bad on a deer at close range. Don't ask me how I know that.

[Flinch]

Thanks for the replies. I picked up a marlin 444 this weekend and am really happy with it. Recoil is mild so far, it shoots great and is super accurate. Just shot some factory 240s through it so far. I plan on testing some 300 gr. XTPs and some 240s for now, after all working up loads is half the fun. I also have some 240 gr. cast bullets but those might just be plinkers at lower velocitys. If anyone has any load data they want to share it would be appriciated. Thanks again........Flinch

[hatchetman]

Flinch: Never fired a 444 but I'm sure it will work if you do your part.  I've got a couple of 45-70s and I like them.  If you can lay your hands on the August-September issue of Handloader Magazine they have some good stuff on loading the 444.  Have fun.  Hatchetman

[Triple4]

i prefer the .45-70 as there is much more flexiblity in the loadings...you can go from mild to wild very easily

And you can't with the 444?

[Mikey]

cknight:  you are correct about the 444 not being able to push a 500 grain bullet to 1600'/sec - that much bullet is too heavy for that 43 caliber bore.  But, the 444 will throw a 410 grain Beartooth Bullet out the 18.5" ported bbl of a Marlin Outfitter at 1900+ and from a Marlin rifle at better than 2000+.  Now, that's in a 43 bore - the 45-70 is a 458 bore.  The 45-70 may throw a heavier slug, but not as fast.  And, it's really not the speed that makes either 'the' or 'any' difference.  If you take the same composition bullet (hard cast and gas checked), at the same velocity, the smaller (narrower bore) will penetrate farther and do more damage.

Cor-Bon hypes their 444 loads as such:  Both our 270 and 300 grain bullets from a Contender have taken the African Big Five.  The 300 grain load is absolutely vicious to shoot from a Contender but shouldn't be too bad from a rifle.  All of this from a fellow named 'Jerry' at Cor-Bon.  The 300 grain bullet in the 45-70 is limited in big game hunting.  Usually, most folks go to a heavier bullet in that caliber for anything larger than whitetail.  

Now pleeeze unnerstand that I wouldn't want to be the critter on the receiving end of either of those 300 grain loads, and I'm not too fond of being on the shootin' end, either, as both of them will give you a heckova kick.  Each has their own application and their own following.  I just think it is either a good mental exercise or a waste of time to bother trying to compare them.  It's not that we are talking about apples and oranges, possibly large Florida Oranges and large Californika oranges is more like it.  Both will do the same thing with different loadings, so it really comes down to a matter of preference.  Hay, I prefer the 444, the 30-06, the 8mm, the 303 British and the 6.5 Swede.  Other guys like the 45-70, the 308, the 243 and the 260.  Some guys like to go fishin' and some like to cut bait.  I just like being able to eat all the way up to the bullet hole, and this is just my own 2 centavos worth.  Mikey.   :-D

[Flinch]

Well, when I made the decision to go with the smaller of the two, I realized that the 45-70 could throw a much heavier bullet, but then I asked myself, since I dont go to Africa and there arent anymore dinosaurs, what would I ever need to shoot a 500 grain bullet at anyway? What could a 500 grainer do that a 400 cant? or even a nice 350 hard cast for that matter on any North American game? I dont think my shoulder would like to feel the recoil of a bullet that size either. I guess my way of thinking is, I still want to put a really big hole in something but just dont see the need to punish myself in the process.     I also hear people bashing the 240 gr. pistol bullets in the 444. I think they probably arent good for tough skined game or animals with big bones, but they seem ideal to me for deer. I think a screaming fast 240 grain hp "mini bomb" would probably make a hole big enough to drive a truck through in a whitetail deer, although I havent actually had a chance to try it yet.  Has anyone really seen one of these 240 gr. pistol bullets not shoot through the rib cage of a deer when moving at rifle velocitys? It just seems unlikely to me. I mean if a 22lr will dump a deer, surely anything you can shoot out of a 444 ought to do the job nicely. just my opinion. Thanks for all the input too. I am looking forward to experimenting with different loads, I might someday even try that 410 gr. Beartooh bullet Mikey was talking about, sounds like nice elk medicine. I think this new rifle is going to be $#!% loads of fun.

[Mikey]

Flinch, your new 444 WILL be a lot of fun for you and I really hope you enjoy it for as long as you can.  

As for your question about the 240 grain pistol bullet in the 444, I do not think that is the right bullet to use.  I hope GrayBeard jumps in here with his background and knowledge but I think the 240 gn xtps for the 44 mag would be too frangible for the velocities of the 444 (1,000'/sec faster) and might not give you the penetration you want.  I think Speer makes a .429 diameter 240 gn soft nose that looks just like the Remington factory 240 grain bullet for the 444 and that is what I've been loading into mine when I shoot 240s.  

True, even the pistol bullet at 240 gns should shoot right through the rib cage of a whitetail out beyond 150 yds, and more, but I'm not sure if it would give you rifle bullet performance on bone structures.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Flinch]

Thanks for the advice on the 240 pistol bullets. Since I am fairly unexperienced with this cartridge I will trust the opinions of those who have probably already been there and done that. I sure dont want to find out the hard way by losing a big buck because my bullet didnt penitrate the shoulder bone. I have some of the Hornady 265s and some 300XTPs also, that would probably be a safer way to go for deer just incase I dont hit the perfect spot. Im not a caster but it seems that is where the 444 really shines is shooting the heavier hardcast bullets. Thanks again. Have a happy Thanksgiving.........Flinch

[BoarHunter]

All the bullets you mentioned will drop a deer the same way as they are rather fragile animals. Based on what I saw, 240 pistol and 300 XTP will expand too violently and will send pieces of lead all over the place.
If these bullets hit a twig, result will be even worse.
Even the Hornady 265 does. I shot a small russian boar (40kg) this Monday, broadside shot.
I was trying to find it it in the brush when the boar charged me ! Shot from the hip at close range,  it made a right turn and went to lay down in a heavy brush where I finished it with a headshot to be sure.
My first bullet was in the lower rib cage, liver damaged and I recovered a piece of lead just under the skin of the opposite hind leg. My second shot punctured a clean hole in the ear. The blast must have forced it to turn.
Lucky it was not a big one.
I do not understand the tendency to try to use the heaviest bullet that can fit. In the past the ticket was super high speed with light bullets to produce this magical shock wave.  A joke, but now we just go the opposite route, super heavy but slow big caliber bullet.
I agree with the big bore, studies have been made in Europe that shows the best cartridge for drive hunting is the 9.3X62 or 9.3X74. As for bullet weight, there is an optimum considering the energy, speed, stability, expansion, penetration and BC.
For the 444, 265g seems to be this optimum. I picked the 444 instead of the 45-70 because the latter was really too slow, forcing to give more lead on running target as I use the Win 94AE just for drive.
The friend I was hunting with this Monday even told me he could see my bullets flying!
For still hunting, I keep my scoped bolt action Sako in 300Win.

[Mikey]

Boarhunter:  The 265 gn load for the 444 is a good one - even Cor-Bon and Hornaday load that bullet weight for heavier game.  I'm a bit surprised that your 265 came apart on that hog - Coug2wolves used to bam big hog with the 444 and I don't recall his having or mentioning problems with that particular bullet.

As for the trend now to go with slower heavier slugs, and with the 444 you get into the hardcasts in the 300 - 400 grain range, shooters find they work best.  This is the old Elmer Keith philosophy and it still works today.  Please be advised though, that the 300 gn load for the 444 is not a slow mover - loading manuals put that just a bit behind the factory 240s, and the hotter aftermarket offerings are just a warm, but all within acceptable pressure limits for the cartridge.  When you can move a 300 gn 43 bore hardcast gas checked bullet to 2200'/sec you've got yourself a whomper that will bust right on through anything on this continent.  I would like to see some heavy loads in the 444 caliber at 300 grains or better that move a bit more slowly and are easier on the shooter.  Would still be an incredible game getter but easier on ya all the way around.  HTH.  Mikey.

ps, as for your friend being able to 'see' the bullets moving downrange - well, I'm not so sure, unless he's using 10x binoculars and standing right behind you when you shoot.  Years ago we could watch some of the older and slower 22 lr loads moving downrange over a snow cover, and the same with the old 38 loads from a snubbie but, if his eyesight is good enough to detect a 1300-2300'/sec bullet moving downrange he should be out looking for Oslamas VinLaden and earning himself 25 mil.

[John Y Cannuck]

I'm sure you'llbe happy with the 444, but I'll stick with my 45-70.
you can indeed get some serious shoulder thumping with the big 500s

[BoarHunter]

True that cast bullet  all other conditions being equal will go faster than jacketed because of less resistance in the bore (although it depends on powder too as a slow pouwder will need this resistance to burn more efficently).
The fact is cast bullets for the 444 are not available in Europe and I prefer to use the jacketed  as I have often to load, unload the 94AE and lead bullet will end up damaged.
Yes the 265Hornady lost some lead, I did not recover the core as it pass through (small boar 40kg) but a small piece sheared off probably that I recovered.
When the bullet hits bone it will loose some pieces. I have seen it many time even with the 300WM. I shot a few Russian Boar this summer with my 300WM (still hunting for crop protection) and the few Sierra Soft point boat tail I recovered where in pieces and failed to exit. I will try the Swift or Harnday bonded core next time.
Russian boar are tougher than hogs which are mixed breed pigs/russian.
The boar has a thick armor plate on the side,  heavy hair plus mud, lot of fat, muscles, heavy bones and phenomenal stamina.
I once shot one (110kg, 240lb) in the shoulder area, the 180g Nosler partition in 300WM broke the bones, made a mess of the shoulder and end up against the backbone without penetrating it. The bullet had lost all its front portion.
The boar was still alive and had to quiclkly finish it before it could recover.

Drive hunting in Europe is quite different than still hunting which is the norm in the US (I started hunting in the US in the late eighties).
Bullet speed is a concern in drive hunbting as you shoot at running target and you have to give some lead. I just missed a roebuck this Sunday because I aimed just in front of the rib cage and it stopped at the very moment I pressed the trigger. With the the 300WM I was giving less lead and would not have missed but overall I prefer the 94AE, lighter, quicker to follow up and overall better success in this type of hunting.

For better penetration, I am now loading Sierra 44 250g power jacket (can't find heavier)  used for silhouette in the 444. With a punch I make a small conical hole in the front. I tried in wet paper and get good initial penetration without expansion then full expansion as good as the 265 Hornady which definitively expand too early. Hope tommorrow will be the day!

[Triple4]

As much as I'm a 444 junkie it will not throw a 405gr Hardcast bullet much over 1850fps (safely)in any barrel, and if you want to use a 405gr hardcast bullet in a 444 at around 1800fps then you better have the 1-20 twist. It would be better just to use a 45-70 for Anything over 350grains.

[Mikey]

Triple 4:  The Beartooth loads for their 405 gn cast gas-check show better than 1900 and some better than 2000'/sec from a shortie Outfitter and a 22" bbl rifle.  They show slower loads as well but they advertise thier heavy bullets to attain that velocity.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Sensei]

goe with the 45/70 more traditional and a better cartridge all around
good for anything on the north american continent
 

[Sensei]

goe with the 45/70 more traditional and a better cartridge all around
good for anything on the north american continent
 

 
I also agree 45/70 Rules. I have it in a Marlin Stainless Guide Gun set up with the scout position mount with the Leopold 2 power Scout Scope shooting a 300 grain hollow point. It’s SWEET!  It’s also a show stopper.

I also have owned a New 444 Winchester, (TRADED IT!!!  for the NEW 45/70 Marlin mentioned above) That was a great move! Love it!!

[Flinch]

Well over the weekend I loaded up a few 300 xtps over 42 grains of h4198. Shot them through some wet phone books. I found first off that I should have stacked more phonebooks. But the one bullet that I did happen to find was completly flattened, and the jacket was stripped right off in the phonebooks.  I must say, they do expand rather quickly with devistating results. I think I found an awsome deer load. Will try to work up some heavier hard casts for elk though.

[John Y Cannuck]

When you test the hard cast.... Use many, many phone books.

The 45-70 has been described as driving lengthwise through a railroad tie. (Just a tad exageration  :shock:  ) The 444, whilst not as powerfull, will still go a long way.

[Triple4]

Sorry Mikey,  but even Marshall at beartooth can't make a 405gr go 2000fps in a 444, if you can find out where you
seen 2000fps at I would like to read it for myself.

[Mikey]

Triple 4:  I'm going to have to go back and check my data from Beartooth, because I wouldn't have spouted off if I didn't think so.  Maybe I was adding a few '/sec with my 26" bbl but I didn't thunk so.  I'll check and get back at ya.  Mikey.

[Flinch]

Anyone have any favorite loads for 300-355 grain hardcast bullets? Is h4198 a good powder for these? None of my books for reloading have 444 info in them so until I get another reloading manual, what are you guys using?

[Mikey]

Go to the Beartooth Bullets (www.Beartoothbullets.com)(?) website and look into the reloading data provided by Marshall Stanton for those bullet weights.  He uses commercially made cannister powders and they seem to work quite well.  I use his data for 300 - 405 grain bullets and I like it.  I have to get back into his site to see what he has developed for light loads in the 444.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Mikey]

Triple 4, you are correct.  I checked my loading data from Beartooth last night and the best they come up with for the 405 gn bullet is 1830'/sec.  That's from their 22" Marlin rifle, and the got lousy groups in that 1:38 micro-groove bbl.  The outfitter with a 6 groove 1:20 twist, 18.5" bbl was more accurate with groups averaging 2.2-2.6" at 100 yds.  That's pretty OK for that weight bullet.  

I think I added some velocity to the load based on my barrel length, which is 26".  The marlin rifle Beartooth used had a 22" bbl and I just added to their velocities believing the increase in bbl would create that.  I may have to drag out my old chronograph this spring to verify that.  Also, I'm thinking that different twists may have a different effect on accuracy.

The 1:38 twist does give you a lot of accuracy with the 405 gn bullet.  The 1:20 twist is much better.  I would expect my 94AE Black Shadow with a 20" 1:38 twist microgroove bbl to give the same results as the Marlin Rifle.  My Timber Carbine with a 1:12 twist microgroove bbl might be something different altogether.  Harpy was shooting his home made 410 gn jacketed soft points and getting incredible groups from a 1:12 twist Timber Carbine.  Gary Lamberth found accuracy with only the 180 and 300 gn jacketed in a 1:16 twist.  I think some testing is in order, and I will hafta get back at ya when I get there.  Thanks for the clarification.  Mikey.