Author Topic: My visit to a cannon wheel maker  (Read 3454 times)

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Offline dominick

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My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« on: May 06, 2010, 04:09:01 PM »
I picked up the wheels yesterday for a cannon I'm restoring.  The shop that built these is about a 40 minute drive fom me.  The name is Witmer Coach Shop and it appears that they are well known in the cannon building industry. They have in stock several cannon wheels along with the capability of making custom wheels.  I took a few pictures while there.  I guess I should have taken some more.  The four new wheels in the third photo are 57" diameter Civil War No. 1 carriage wheels.   Needless to say I'm very pleased with the product.  The wheels I have are 38" Pack Carriage.  Dom








Offline lance

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2010, 04:28:56 PM »
Great pics Dom, a few more from inside that shop would be good, and the cannon you are restoring too.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline intoodeep

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2010, 04:49:19 PM »
Dom,

 Thanks for the photos. It's nice to see where stuff comes from. Since, I'm on the other side... I have a set of Whitmer's 20's sitting underneath your Parrott tube. Which, by the way I have not finished as I have a few too many "Intoodeep" projects going on.

 On a side note. I sure miss the green of PA.

If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 05:11:54 PM »


Shades of "yester-year".    ;D




Meanwhile, back at the ranch ....
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline rampa room artillery

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 05:40:38 PM »
   yea they make great wheels i have  a set on my cannon and going to buy another set of 42's for a limber

rick bryan
n-ssa

Offline a4beltfed2000

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2010, 05:50:39 PM »
Guys, is there contact info available for these guys? What kind of price would I be looking at? I have a couple of leads on wheels locally but I will have to do some work on them and they are still 350.00 for the pair......
H&R/NEF 10, 12,16 20 28 ,410 .243 45 357 45lc. 1919a4, uzi, sten mK 2,3,5 M2HB, 1917a1, ak74(2) amd 65, RPK (2) 11 aks and 50 other guns....

Offline RocklockI

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2010, 05:51:12 PM »
Thats cool a wagon/cannon wheel maker 40 miles away .

I'll look them up on the net . I was looking at Hansens Wheels last week.

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2010, 02:28:15 AM »
Guys, is there contact info available for these guys? What kind of price would I be looking at? I have a couple of leads on wheels locally but I will have to do some work on them and they are still 350.00 for the pair......

Witmer Coach Shop
1070 West Main St.
New Holland, Pa 17557
PH # 717-656-3411

Offline KABAR2

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 05:11:16 AM »
Dom,

It's hard to tell in the photo of the wheels you bought, are they dished?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 07:57:32 AM »
Intoodeep,  Your cannon looks great!  It's hard to tell the size.  If it weren't for the background it would pass for a full scale.   :)

 
Great pics Dom, a few more from inside that shop would be good, and the cannon you are restoring too.

  Next trip up there I'll take more photos.  The wheels are for a Revolutionary war style cannon I'm rebuilding  .  Here's a few before photos I took earlier this year.  The barrel is cast iron and I sent it out to have bored and a sleeve installed.  I made the sleeve but I don't have the large boring equipment to do the work.  The cannon owner owns a cabinet shop so he will make the carriage pieces to my specs.  I will make it come together and do the iron work.  I'll upload more photos as the work progresses.  Dom  






Dom,

It's hard to tell in the photo of the wheels you bought, are they dished?


Kabar,  The wheels are dished.  Here's an edge view.  


Offline lance

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2010, 03:39:07 PM »
Thanks Dom, that's a great project you are working on, can't wait to see the full restoration.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline GGaskill

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2010, 08:00:52 PM »
The wheels are dished.  Here's an edge view.

Interesting.  The rim appears to be perpendicular to the axis of the wheel which will put it at an angle (not parallel) to the ground when properly mounted.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2010, 10:01:20 PM »
"The rim appears to be perpendicular to the axis of the wheel which will put it at an angle (not parallel) to the ground when properly mounted."

That is, unless it was intended to be used on a straight axle arm.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2010, 03:59:07 AM »
I'm using it on a straight axle.  I thought the wooden wheels were all built this way anyhow.  Otherwise the tires would have to be bent sideways to conform to the fellows.  That would be tough to make a proper fit.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2010, 04:33:12 AM »
  Your  right Dom. All wheels are a few degrees to the ground ,running hard on outer edge to keep true on straight move . This even applies to trailers made today. Thus the iron tire hoops are square to the edges and axle line of the wheel .
  Good looking restore , was iron of gun original or old re-pro as the wheel hub ring on old looks much larger?

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2010, 04:51:37 AM »
Tom,  The cannon is a repro built about 35 years ago.  The wheels are from a farm wagon.  The owner had someone cast the barrel for him and he buillt his own carriage.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2010, 05:11:17 AM »
 I see . Looks like would be much left of old except barrel , can probably resale old wheels to decor market after you remove ty-raps.
   Got the tour many years ago at Witmers  great place was surprised they still looped and hot shrunk their wheels ,had inside forge ,and then cold shrunk. What a machine ! I think the man to talk to is Earl  and phone is 717-656 8877 or 3411. I know they'll send you great catalogs on wheels and carriage (buggy) parts for couple bucks.

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2010, 05:19:03 AM »
Earl is who I dealt with.  The old wheels are disintegrating every time I move the carriage.  They're pretty much junk.  The hubs are slip in several places and pieces are missing.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2010, 07:58:45 AM »
I'm using it on a straight axle.  I thought the wooden wheels were all built this way anyhow.  Otherwise the tires would have to be bent sideways to conform to the fellows.  That would be tough to make a proper fit.

A real period double bracket carriage's axles would have had arms that formed a straight line across the bottom of the axle, but the tops of the axle arms would have been angled downward from the body of the carriage towards the tip of the arm. That's the same way the iron axle arms/spindles were designed on Civil War carriages, and even on post Civil War era artillery carriages for some time after 65. What George meant was that the wheels that were made to be used on that type of axle wouldn't show the axis of the hub and the line across the top of the tyre on the wheel as being parrallel with the bottom of the tyre. Your photo of a front view perpendicular to the ground dished wooden wheel that shows the hub, and the top/bottom of the tyre as all being parrallel with each other, couldn't have functioned with that type of canted axle arm. That's why front and rear view pictures of artillery carriages, buggies, farm wagons etc., made before some time in the latter quarter of the 19th century (and current realistic reproductions), show the top of the wheel looking like it is a further distance out from the body of the vehicle than the bottom of the wheel; it actually is.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline carronader

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 08:08:36 AM »
too many of the old drawings show incorrect design on axle , try making one , you will soon find out. But , what do I know ?   the drawings say...............................................
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline carronader

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 09:42:10 AM »
 Woolwich , I would pay to work there   and a pic I already posted on making wheels.  This is not such an old pic of Woolwich and I don't see any machine tools.......'.hand made'    Made in USA    Made in Great Britain   better days ?   
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline carronader

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2010, 09:44:01 AM »
forgot the pics again 
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2010, 09:56:46 AM »
Now, just how in the world could I possibly know that my post was going to entice a termite out of the woodwork? I can't come up with a reasonable answer: I simply..........knew!
Honey, call the Orkin Man quick, this time it stops eating our house for good! :) ;D :D :) ;D :D :) ;D :D
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2010, 03:39:47 PM »
I'm using it on a straight axle.  I thought the wooden wheels were all built this way anyhow.  Otherwise the tires would have to be bent sideways to conform to the fellows.  That would be tough to make a proper fit.

A real period double bracket carriage's axles would have had arms that formed a straight line across the bottom of the axle, but the tops of the axle arms would have been angled downward from the body of the carriage towards the tip of the arm. That's the same way the iron axle arms/spindles were designed on Civil War carriages, and even on post Civil War era artillery carriages for some time after 65. What George meant was that the wheels that were made to be used on that type of axle wouldn't show the axis of the hub and the line across the top of the tyre on the wheel as being parrallel with the bottom of the tyre. Your photo of a front view perpendicular to the ground dished wooden wheel that shows the hub, and the top/bottom of the tyre as all being parrallel with each other, couldn't have functioned with that type of canted axle arm. That's why front and rear view pictures of artillery carriages, buggies, farm wagons etc., made before some time in the latter quarter of the 19th century (and current realistic reproductions), show the top of the wheel looking like it is a further distance out from the body of the vehicle than the bottom of the wheel; it actually is.

Boom,  I understand what you're saying about the axle taper.  This cambers the wheel out at the top and the taper keeps the wheel tight to the axle.  I don't understand what you are saying about the wheel itself.  Do you have a drawing?

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2010, 09:27:28 PM »
Dom,
This drawing displays two "artillery wheels": These are the type of dished wooden wheels that were the next step in the evolution of wood wheels after Civil War era carriage wheels. These wheels were developed circa 1870, but I don't know which country should be credited with first developing them. These were the strongest wood wheels ever designed; they had a steel hub (nave), wooden spokes, and usually a one piece wooden rim (no more multiple felloes) that was steamed then bent on a machine, and the first models had steel tyres, later models had hard rubber tires attached to the rims. These were also the first type of wheels used on automobiles; You're probably familiar these wheels from studying the French 75.
 
This is the best drawing I could find, and even though it doesn't show the exact wheels that we want to see, it's still pretty darn good, because this illustration can be used to explain exactly what I was trying to describe in my earlier post. Figure 6, shows a dished wheel on an axle arm that's angled downward, and I'm assuming that the 'balls' are supposed to represent hard rubber tires. This is how I did it, and it seems the easiest way to see it; print the drawing then take a ruler and draw the level surface of the ground the iron 'tyre' (forget about the round ball) is resting on, using the caption "Cambered Wheel" as a guideline (the line drawn for the ground should be parrallel with a line drawn under the caption). Then using the bottom spoke as a reference (its being perpendicular to the ground line), turn the paper upside down, and draw the ground line under what is now the bottom spoke and tyre, making sure that the ground line forms right angles with the line of the downward spoke. Now turn the paper back to right side up, and bisect the hub by drawing a line right through the middle of it. If you now extended these three lines to the left of the wheel, at a given distance the top and bottom lines would intersect the line through the hub (axis). If you extended the lines to the right of the wheel the top and bottom lines would continue to increase the distance between each other and the center line; none of these three lines are parrallel with each other. If you did the same thing on the wheel shown in Fig. 5, (which is intended to rotate on a straight axle arm) all three lines would be parrallel to each other.
I don't know why the caption "Dished Wheel" is under Fig. 5, both figures are drawings of dished wheels; for our purposes it would be better if the caption read, 'Straight Axle Arm'.




RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2010, 09:37:06 PM »
What is the source for those wheel drawings?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2010, 09:52:10 PM »
Darn, GG, you're quick; I'm glad I bookmarked the site. ;) http://www.calimerswheelshop.com/Dish.html
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 04:45:33 AM »
Boom,  From what you are explaining,  it appears that you are saying that the tire on a dished wheel is shaped like a segment of a cone so that any given part of it contacts the road surface flat when the entire wheel is cambered.  This will create the intersect points you are referring to?  Lines from the cone shape tires through the axle centerline?

Offline dan610324

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 05:56:58 AM »
if it was conical it would never stay on the wheel , and at least 5 times as difficult to produce
Im sure it must be cylindrical
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

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Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 06:55:50 AM »
if it was conical it would never stay on the wheel , and at least 5 times as difficult to produce
Im sure it must be cylindrical

Exactly!  Plus the wheels would be trying to steer [scrub] outwards when moving.