Author Topic: My visit to a cannon wheel maker  (Read 3509 times)

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Offline Double D

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2010, 01:04:23 PM »
The wheel geometry was constantly evolving while they tried to deal with these issues.

If you look at this drawing you sill see the cone shape axle was canted so the load bearing surface of the axle was parallel to the ground and function like a cylinder.




Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2010, 01:50:18 PM »
The wheel geometry was constantly evolving while they tried to deal with these issues.

If you look at this drawing you sill see the cone shape axle was canted so the load bearing surface of the axle was parallel to the ground and function like a cylinder.





This drawing shows the tire cone shaped and perpendicular to the spokes which some of us are saying is incorrect because of the difficulty in bending the tire on 2 planes.  The rest of wheel and the tapered axle stub are ok.  

Offline Double D

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2010, 02:11:45 PM »
You are saying then, the  tire has to be  a frustum of a cone also?  ...let me find the drawing that shows just that.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2010, 02:50:00 PM »
That last drawing is wrong. The felloes are not fitted to the spokes at the same angle as the spokes. Spoke tenons are angled towards the inside of the wheel at the same angle that the spokes are angled to the outside of the wheel, making the tenon vertical. That puts the sides of the felloes vertical , not at an angle. That's the way they are on artillery wheels anyway, cart wheels? who knows.
Max

Offline GGaskill

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2010, 02:55:23 PM »
The axle ends and wheel boxes are in fact conical on Mordecai-era carriages (and maybe earlier ones, too; I don't have plans for any of that style.)  I don't know why they did it that way.  On the other hand, if you look at automotive wheel bearings, the inboard bearings are larger than the outboard bearings because the inboard bearing carries more of the static load.
GG
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Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2010, 03:23:19 PM »
I can't imagine a wheelwright taking a 15 foot long by 1/2" thick piece of steel and curving it edge wise first before rolling it when there is no advantage to this.  The roads back then were for the most part soft dirt and it wouldn't matter whether the tire layed flat or on an angle.


The axle ends and wheel boxes are in fact conical on Mordecai-era carriages (and maybe earlier ones, too; I don't have plans for any of that style.)  I don't know why they did it that way.  On the other hand, if you look at automotive wheel bearings, the inboard bearings are larger than the outboard bearings because the inboard bearing carries more of the static load.


George,  Could it be the tapered axle also allows the hub to be tightened as the bushing wears by shimming the wheel in closer to the carriage?  

You are saying then, the  tire has to be  a frustum of a cone also?  ...let me find the drawing that shows just that.

No,  We think The tires were shaped like cutting a band from a piece of tubing and not a frustum as shown in the diagram you posted.

Offline Double D

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2010, 04:26:11 PM »
Here another version showing the canted tire. This wheel  has a cylinder axle but it probably should have a cone shaped axle instead.  George and Dom, is this what you are thinking.  Just the rim detail, not the nave.



There wasn't only one way to make a wheel. There were many different ways. Different wheel makers, different uses and different countries. As technology progressed their methods changed. 

A wheel made for a Civil war cannon carriage would not be made the same way as a Revolutionary war period carriage; not the same as a British artillery wheel, not the same as for a French gun of the same era. They all would have similarities and differences in construction based on local conditions, equipment and state of exposure to the latest technology.

I don''t have a set of AOP Carriage drawings but given the detail normally found in them, I wouldn't be surprised if the angles you need aren't found there. Use the dimensions and you will have a correct wheel for that carriage.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2010, 09:11:17 PM »
Boom,  From what you are explaining,  it appears that you are saying that the tire on a dished wheel is shaped like a segment of a cone so that any given part of it contacts the road surface flat when the entire wheel is cambered.  This will create the intersect points you are referring to?  Lines from the cone shape tires through the axle centerline?

Dom,
The dished wooden wheel was described as a shallow cone for hundreds of years, but what was being described was the dish of the wheel; how the spokes were angled from the hub outward. As I described the wheel in Fig. 6, yes if lines were drawn following the the angle of the surface of the iron tyre extending outward from the face of the wheel they would eventually meet at a point in space and the shape described by these line would be conical. I wrote the following around four years ago when there was another discussion of the wooden dished wheel, and there are some modern automotive terms used because that was a large part of the discussion at that time.

"Camber simply refers to the tilt of the wheels as viewed from the front. If the wheel is perpendicular to the ground, it has zero camber. If the top of the wheel is tilted towards the vehicle the camber is negative, measured in degrees from the vertical. If the top of the wheel is leaning out from the vehicle the camber is positive, measured in degrees from the vertical. If you were using the term to describe the dished wooden wheel as it rode on the angled axle arm I guess you’d have to describe the wheel one half at a time. In the top half from the hub up, the camber would be positive, measuring x degrees from vertical. From the hub down to the iron tyre on the ground the wheel would have zero camber, the bottom half of the wheel being perpendicular to the ground or at least as perpendicular to the ground as the wheelwright’s and blacksmith’s skills allowed. The ideal setting to be getting the optimum performance from the wheel would be “zero camber”. A wheel that is vertical, that is riding perpendicular to the ground would give you the best tracking performance, the most tire surface to road surface contact, the least and most even wear pattern on the tread and the least pressure and force being exerted on the wheel itself, because it would be riding as flat as is possible on the ground, absorbing and dispersing the forces over a wider area and therefore causing less wear on the load bearing parts."

"Toe-in is an invention of compensation not an invention of improvement in and of itself, as you wrongly think it is. In this respect it is similar to the conical axle arm, the downward angle on the arm has to be there to compensate for the dish of the wheel, that angle is what positions the bottom of the wheel to be vertical to the ground, which is the only way the wheel can function properly.  These two discoveries have to go hand in hand, they’re two parts of the same invention, one without the other would make the wheel inoperable."

The lower portion of a dished wooden wheel at the downward spoke is actually operating like a straight wheel that rides perpendicular to the ground, and it has to in order to function properly.                                                                                                                             
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2010, 11:28:18 AM »
The axle ends and wheel boxes are in fact conical on Mordecai-era carriages (and maybe earlier ones, too; I don't have plans for any of that style.)  I don't know why they did it that way.  On the other hand, if you look at automotive wheel bearings, the inboard bearings are larger than the outboard bearings because the inboard bearing carries more of the static load.

Tapered roller bearings are self-centering and (as already mentioned) adjustable to set preload or compensate for wear.

But the biggest advantage of tapered rollers over cylindrical rollers is that tapered roller bearings are able to withstand axial loads that would trash a cylindrical roller bearing.

Of course this has little to do with cannon wheel spindles.

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2010, 03:56:28 PM »
Boom and Douglas,  I stand corrected.  So they did in fact make a tapered tire.  Not an easy task.

Offline dan610324

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2010, 12:31:00 AM »
who did it and how many ??
Ive never seen anyone , during the years when I got my auction company we had a lot of auctions on old farms and I could only see cylimdrical tires .
dont know for sure but here in sweden I guess that there only have been wheels made with cylindrical tires
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2010, 03:54:48 AM »
Dan, I suspect that if conical tires were used, they were used on light buggy wheels which were spindly, delicate affairs. A conical tire would appear to put pressure on the spokes in a more straight line than a cylindrical tire would, which could prevent a light wheel from springing out of shape. I have never seen a heavy wheel with a conical tire, nor have I found any reference to them in the old blacksmith manuals that I have looked at. There is one mention in one of the old manuals that refers to making a tire with a slight cone shape for ease of fitting to a wheel.
Max

Offline Double D

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2010, 04:37:55 AM »
Does any one have the AOP carriage plans and do they go into that kind of detail on wheels?

Offline KABAR2

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2010, 05:16:18 AM »
Maybe I am missing the point but......
I think this talk of conical vs straight wheels does not take into the account
of use, these were designed for dirt roads and rough ground not the interstate
metal rims on a hard surface tend to want to slide a bit side to side the broader the
foot print the better I can't see putting all the weight of the gun on the edge of
the wheel even if you are not going at a gallop I think it would do the whole set up no goood.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline dominick

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2010, 06:34:11 AM »
I've also seen cannons with dished wheels at zero camber.  The Hotchkiss at Disneyland for example.  The dished wheel helped cornering strength by placing the spokes in tension/compressionas opposed to side loading them. 

Offline Double D

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2010, 06:55:16 AM »
How does a spoke with a tenon at an angle have increased strength.  The cross grain cut of the tenon weakens the spoke.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2010, 07:00:10 AM »
I've also seen cannons with dished wheels at zero camber.  The Hotchkiss at Disneyland for example.  The dished wheel helped cornering strength by placing the spokes in tension/compressionas opposed to side loading them.  

Dominick,
You are absolutely dead on target, there's no question that you get it.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2010, 07:19:38 AM »
Douglas, the wheel drawing in post #58 in the Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels is from AOP plans #12.

The angle of the tenon is so slight as to not cause much loss of strength. The felloes sit on the shoulder of the spoke and that is what carries most of the load.
Max

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2010, 07:50:37 AM »
the wheel drawing in post #58 in the Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels is from AOP plans #12.

Thanks, Max; I was going to ask you about the source of that sheet, I've been curious since first seeing it.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2010, 08:47:53 AM »
Thanks Max.  I wondered what was said in those drawings....I suppose I need break down and buy a set.  

Offline GGaskill

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Re: My visit to a cannon wheel maker
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2010, 03:24:48 PM »
All of the AOP plan sets I have bought have come with carriage drawings as well as the tube drawings.  This is why I recommend buying the plans rather than just finding a tube drawing on the internet.
GG
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