Would any of you be interested in a Vortex Viper 6.5x20x44 review?

[DalesCarpentry]

Hey guys. I am going to buy a new scope this week from a sponser here. The sponser is Camera Land and the scope I am going to buy this week is the Vortex Viper 6.5x20x44 scope. It has taken me a couple weeks to save up for it but it will soon be mine. By the way this is the most expensive scope I have ever bought. I have been reading everything I can the past couple weeks on them and from what I can tell it should be a great buy. Their warrenty is out of this world. Here are a couple links to the scope I will be buying.
http://www.vortextactical.com/product/vortex-viper-6-5-20x44-pa-riflescope-mil-dot-reticle
http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/vortex.pl?page=vortexviper6-20x44
So do any of you have an interest in me giving you a review of this scope? I will shoot the box and give you my honest opinion on this scope. I will be ordering mine with the Mill Dot recticle. It was a toss up between that and the BDC recticle. I have had a Mill Dot in the past and liked it. That is why I am going with it. I will be buying the Mill Dot Master to go along with it. If you don't know what the Mill Dot Master is Google it. Like I said I am going to be buying the most expensive scope I ever have and hope I made a good choice. Let me know and take care Dale

[torpedoman]

sure, Always interested in how a new product works.

[DalesCarpentry]

Well I just got off the phone with Camera Land. I ordered it and will have it the middle of next week. Dale

[diggler1833]

Just send it my way, I'd be happy to do a torture test and review on your new scope  .

[myarmor]

Post it up when you get a chance Dale. They look to be a good deal, and have some very good extras for the money. I have been impressed with all the Vortex stuff I have looked at so far, especially their Bino's.
Haven't had the chance to check this one out in person though.



-Aaron

[DalesCarpentry]

I will post a report on it most likely by the end of the weekend. They sent me a tracking number on it today so I should have it in a couple days I would think. I live in Pa and it is only comming from New York city. I just can't wait to open the package. I feel like a little kid a couple days before Christmas. Dale

[Glanceblamm]

Bring the review on Dale.

One of the first things that I would do to it (even before mounting) would be to get the recticle centered within the circumference of the Scope.

I would used to cut a couple of "U" shape notches in a shoebox to cradle the scope then turn it round n round while looking through it and using the dials to correct that lopsided wagon wheel.

There is now a much better way to do this. You place a mirror on the face of the objective lens and then look through the ocular as normal. You may have to experiment with your room lighting some but you should be able to see your crosshairs and a duplicate ghost crosshair which will show up as being white. You simply use the dials to center up the two sets of crosshairs and you are done!

We used to have a sticky on this procedure and I was going to refer you to it but it appears to be gone.

[DalesCarpentry]

Bring the review on Dale.

One of the first things that I would do to it (even before mounting) would be to get the recticle centered within the circumference of the Scope.

I would used to cut a couple of "U" shape notches in a shoebox to cradle the scope then turn it round n round while looking through it and using the dials to correct that lopsided wagon wheel.

There is now a much better way to do this. You place a mirror on the face of the objective lens and then look through the ocular as normal. You may have to experiment with your room lighting some but you should be able to see your crosshairs and a duplicate ghost crosshair which will show up as being white. You simply use the dials to center up the two sets of crosshairs and you are done!

We used to have a sticky on this procedure and I was going to refer you to it but it appears to be gone.

I received the scope this morning through Fedex. The scope came centered from the factory. I have to say the optics are very bright and clear. The finish on the scope is out standing about as perfect as finishes come. The side focus and the zoom addjustments are as smooth as silk. No grit or tight or loose spots while going through the addjustment.I really like the elevation and windage knobs. They have positive audible clicks that don't feel one bit mushey. I also like the fact you can addjust them to zero after you zero it in with no tools. You just pick up on the turret and turn it to zero. It will still be a few days before I get a chance to get to the range with it because they sent 1" rings by mistake. That means I can't mount it until I get the proper rings. I hope to get to the range with it by this weekend though. I just thought I would give you guys my first impression of the scope. Take care Dale

[DalesCarpentry]

I was playing with the elevation knob a little bit and I really like the way it is numbered. There is 12 MOA of addjustment per revolution. Besides that there are  horizontal lines at the bottom of the turret that are numbered from 0 probably 5 or 6 I really don't know because I did not take it past 3 revolutions. Well my point is it is easy to go back to zero again just by going back to the first  horizontal line. I just thought I would throw that in there. This is by far the highest quality scope I have ever owned and sure can tell a difference between this and other scopes I have owned in the past. Dale

[DalesCarpentry]

Well I mounted the scope today and headed to the range. I have to say this is a very very clear scope and I like it a lot. I did not get around to shooting the box today. I pretty much just sighted it in and shot a couple groups with it today. The Mill Dots in the recticle seem to be correct. What I mean by that is at 100 yards 1 Mill Dot = 3.6". Well while looking through the scope today at the range at 100 yards the first Mill Dot was just a hair more than 3 1/2" from the center of the target with my scope set on 14 power like it should be set while using the Mill Dots. It is easy judging 3 1/2'' with these targets because they have 1" squares and I was just a little more than 3 1/2 squares. It would seem that they have their spacing correct. When I left the range I went straight to one of the fields I hunt Groundhogs at. I got my second Groundhog of the year today with this new set up and the first Groundhog ever with this rifle. I saw him just as soon as I got there. He was about 250 yards out. He was nice enough to hang around for me to get the gun out of the truck load it and get set up for the shot. I did miss him the first shot. He just stood there looking around like what was that. I did nail him with the second shot though. Here are some pictures of the new set up and a couple groups I shot today. Next time I get to the range I will shoot the box with this scope. I have to say this though if you were to buy this scope you would not be disapointed. Take care Dale

[DalesCarpentry]

Here are a couple more. Dale

[mjbgalt]

looks like those groups are ALMOST there. try seating the bullets out til you hit rifling (color the bullet with black marker and the rifling will show.)

then back 'em off so the rifling JUST touches the bullet.

i think it should shrink those groups.

also, Varget has worked wonders in .22-250 for me. give that a try if you have some.

[DalesCarpentry]

looks like those groups are ALMOST there. try seating the bullets out til you hit rifling (color the bullet with black marker and the rifling will show.)

then back 'em off so the rifling JUST touches the bullet.

i think it should shrink those groups.

also, Varget has worked wonders in .22-250 for me. give that a try if you have some.

This is still factory ammo. Plus my trigger is about 8 pounds no kidding. I need to get a new trigger for sure because it is way to heavy. The only ammo I have shot out of this rifle so far is the Winchester 45 Grain JHP. I have always had the best luck with Hornady in any rifle or caliber that I have shot but the Winchester ammo is very cheap. I get it for $30.00 for 40 rounds. That is with tax. I am going to start reloading this summer for sure after I save enough Winchester brass to do so. I bet I could shrink these groups by a lot with a new trigger and hand loads. Dale

[diggler1833]

Those triggers are easy as pie to work on.  I'll talk to you this weekend, you may be able to save a bit of money and it only takes a few minutes.

After the trigger, the bedding/stock will be your weak point.

You are right though about handloads shrinking your groups.  While not with Varget, my .22-250 is a laser with IMR 4064 and any 55gr bullet I've tried.

[DalesCarpentry]

Those triggers are easy as pie to work on.  I'll talk to you this weekend, you may be able to save a bit of money and it only takes a few minutes.

After the trigger, the bedding/stock will be your weak point.

You are right though about handloads shrinking your groups.  While not with Varget, my .22-250 is a laser with IMR 4064 and any 55gr bullet I've tried.

I have addjusted a few of the Remington 700 triggers before but this one the screw believe it or not was so tight I stripped out the allen head. I talked to a gun smith to see if he could some how get the screw out and replace it. He said at this point I would need to replace the trigger. He is going to put a Rifle Basix trigger in it that is addjustable from 4 OZ to 20 OZ and I am going to get him to set it at 20 OZ. He is going to do it for $159.00 installed. Dale

[bladerunner]

could you get an allen wrench liquid steeled in there,then turn it?

BTW,thanks for the review

[DalesCarpentry]

could you get an allen wrench liquid steeled in there,then turn it?

BTW,thanks for the review

I never thought of that but kind of dought it would work. I am kind of thinking that this screw was maybe put in cross threaded from the factory. I think that may be the reason for it being so tight. I think I will just replace the trigger with a new one and if I ever sell it (witch I told myself I never will) I will put he factory trigger back in it and keep the new one for my next Remington 700.
One thing I did not bring up was the 30MM tube on this scope. It measures almost 1 3/16". I have to say that the extra 3/16" of an inch sure makes it look like it have a lot more beef to it. It almost looks like I could pound nails with it. Dale

[sscoyote]

Pretty good review Dale. Saw these guys at the SHOT Show this year. Very impressive optics. Nice to know the mil is 14x. That means that at 20 it should be 70% of 3.6 IPHY or 2.52 IPHY--smaller, more accurate system for rangefinding. I've thought about getting 1 myself, but if i do it's going to be the new 5-20x EBR 2 MRAD reticle, although for the life of me i don't know whay they broke up 3 mil units into .2 mil. Way more than what's needed, IMO, especially since reticle-rangefinding really isn't applied much. 1 unit would've been perfect.

The EBR 3 has the finest rangefinding subtension there is as far as i know at .1 mil-.06=.3 IPHY subtension allowing for ~.03 IPHY rangefinding accuracy.

[DalesCarpentry]

Pretty good review Dale. Saw these guys at the SHOT Show this year. Very impressive optics. Nice to know the mil is 14x. That means that at 20 it should be 70% of 3.6 IPHY or 2.52 IPHY--smaller, more accurate system for rangefinding. I've thought about getting 1 myself, but if i do it's going to be the new 5-20x EBR 2 MRAD reticle, although for the life of me i don't know whay they broke up 3 mil units into .2 mil. Way more than what's needed, IMO, especially since reticle-rangefinding really isn't applied much. 1 unit would've been perfect.

The EBR 3 has the finest rangefinding subtension there is as far as i know at .1 mil-.06=.3 IPHY subtension allowing for ~.03 IPHY rangefinding accuracy.

Now I am asking you this because I don't know. It said for the ranging to be accurate I need to use it at 14 power and that means that that one Mill Dot is = to 3.6". Now if I am understanding corectley I could crank my scope up to 20 power and one Mill Dot the would = 2.52 inches at 100 yards? Is that what you are saying? I also emailed them at Vortex about being able to change recticles in my scope. They say they are working on being able to change recticles across lines because I would like to have one of those EBR-1  recticles installed in my scope. Thanks and take care Dale

[Brithunter]

Sorry to hear of the problems Dale  but you would most likely have swopped the trigger at some point anyway ............................ trying to make the best out of a bad thing here  .

Oh 30 mm =1.181" so it's 0.006 smaller than 1 3/16"  I will aways remember the 30mm imperial size after machining a few thousand bearing jounrnals that size many years ago. It sort of stuck in the ole nogging  .

[diggler1833]

If you want to start reinventing the wheel on rangefinding that's great.  Since I've got the mil formula beaten into my head I'd personally work with that scope on 14x or whatever it is to mil correctly.  Adding another math equation at this point would make smoke come out my ears.

I understand about being able to make the distance smaller from center of mildot to center of mildot.  My questions are: #1:  since at 20x you aren't going to be reading in true mils, and your scope adjustments are in MOA (Viper line) what mathmatical equation are you going to use to figure out how much elevation/windage you are going to put into your scope. #2:  If someone is spotting for you with a mil-based reticle and tells you that you need to hold .5 mil right, how are you going to know how much to hold if you are on 20x.  #3:  Are you going to be shooting at targets that are so small, and exactly similar and precise (i.e. exactly 6" metal prairie dog targets etc...) that coming up with a different unit of measurement is going to be worthwhile?  14x is good for killing things, even little things that are usually past most shooters capabilities.

IMO using that scope at 20x at stationary, known distance targets is great, expecially if you are sooting at a "grid style" paper target where you know how much you might need to adjust your scope.  It is even fine for shooting at game if you are just using the reticle to see how far you need to hold for the next shot to connect.  Where trying to range on something other than the intended "mil-correct" magnification of a SFP scope can lead to some disappointments, as will trying to hold mils off of someone else's call.

[diggler1833]

And if I did that whole 3.6 to 2.52 math thing correctly, theoretically a 6' tall man at 1000yds would no longer be 2 mils, but 2.857... mils, and at 500yds he'd be 5.714... mils vice 4.

Not trying to start a flame war or come off as abrasive here, just asking if it ain't broke, why fix it?

I've personally found that reticles with 1/2 mil marks work great for being able to make easier calls.  I've had a few Leupy MK4s, with the TMR reticle, and the reticle was great, especially with the .2 mil subtensions after the 4th or 5th mil (cant remember which off the top of my head, sorry).

Better yet, since FFP scopes that mil correctly on any power, that also come with turrets that adjust in mils start at about $600US, why not invest in a rangefinder?  I'd be willing to be that a rangefinder, coupled with shooting at variuos distances to know what your hold/dial in will be, will result in a lot more hits out in the field.  Just my .02.

[DalesCarpentry]

If you want to start reinventing the wheel on rangefinding that's great.  Since I've got the mil formula beaten into my head I'd personally work with that scope on 14x or whatever it is to mil correctly.  Adding another math equation at this point would make smoke come out my ears.

I understand about being able to make the distance smaller from center of mildot to center of mildot.  My questions are: #1:  since at 20x you aren't going to be reading in true mils, and your scope adjustments are in MOA (Viper line) what mathmatical equation are you going to use to figure out how much elevation/windage you are going to put into your scope. #2:  If someone is spotting for you with a mil-based reticle and tells you that you need to hold .5 mil right, how are you going to know how much to hold if you are on 20x.  #3:  Are you going to be shooting at targets that are so small, and exactly similar and precise (i.e. exactly 6" metal prairie dog targets etc...) that coming up with a different unit of measurement is going to be worthwhile?  14x is good for killing things, even little things that are usually past most shooters capabilities.

IMO using that scope at 20x at stationary, known distance targets is great, expecially if you are sooting at a "grid style" paper target where you know how much you might need to adjust your scope.  It is even fine for shooting at game if you are just using the reticle to see how far you need to hold for the next shot to connect.  Where trying to range on something other than the intended "mil-correct" magnification of a SFP scope can lead to some disappointments, as will trying to hold mils off of someone else's call.

Are you directing this question at me. I was just asking sscoyote if I understood corectly about it being set on 20 power? I am new to this whole thing and am going to be ordering a Mildot Master next week some time to help me out with range estimation. Last night I made up a drop chart I can tape to the stock of my rifle. I did this by using a balistics software program. I have it figured out to 500 yards.I just need to get to the local 300 yard range to see if everything is on out to at least that far. Dale

[diggler1833]

Wasn't necessarily directed at anybody.

[sscoyote]

Dale, i'm not saying that u have to use the reticle at 20x for rangefinding, it's just more accurate at that power for that application. If you're gonna' use the mil-dot master then by all means use it at the optic's cald. power for that. If you're gonna use it with a spotter that's also using a mil reticle, then by all means use it at the cald. power certainly. Here are the advantages to understanding the most basic form of the mil-ranging formula though--

1) It can be used with any multi-stadia reticle at any power from simple plex to Ballistic Plex. That concept is WAY BIGGER than the mil-dot 3.6 inch per hundred yds. subtension system of rangefinding/zeroing, basically allowing the shooter to use any reticle he may have for rangefinding instead of having to go out and purchase a MD optic.

2) It defines all downrange zeroing reference with any reticle or turret system as well.

3) Learning how to manipulate the equation allows the shooter to "reverse mill" as well (calculate tgt. size if anyone's so inclined--or any other variable in the equation once the other's are known). Though seemingly unnecessary, i've used that concept manytimes in the past where it actually helped someone to know that information.

4) But the most important reason is that i like to know all i can about a tool that i happen to be using. I don't just want to know what it's designed to do, i want to know what it can do.

Anyways good luck with your system. Hope u like it. If you happen to be interested in this stuff then go here-- www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp20.pdf Item C) Reticle Rangefinding

[sscoyote]

Guess u can't delete a post if u make a mistake here, ehhh??

[DalesCarpentry]

Dale, i'm not saying that u have to use the reticle at 20x for rangefinding, it's just more accurate at that power for that application. If you're gonna' use the mil-dot master then by all means use it at the optic's cald. power for that. If you're gonna use it with a spotter that's also using a mil reticle, then by all means use it at the cald. power certainly. Here are the advantages to understanding the most basic form of the mil-ranging formula though--

1) It can be used with any multi-stadia reticle at any power from simple plex to Ballistic Plex. That concept is WAY BIGGER than the mil-dot 3.6 inch per hundred yds. subtension system of rangefinding/zeroing, basically allowing the shooter to use any reticle he may have for rangefinding instead of having to go out and purchase a MD optic.

2) It defines all downrange zeroing reference with any reticle or turret system as well.

3) Learning how to manipulate the equation allows the shooter to "reverse mill" as well (calculate tgt. size if anyone's so inclined--or any other variable in the equation once the other's are known). Though seemingly unnecessary, i've used that concept manytimes in the past where it actually helped someone to know that information.

4) But the most important reason is that i like to know all i can about a tool that i happen to be using. I don't just want to know what it's designed to do, i want to know what it can do.

Anyways good luck with your system. Hope u like it. If you happen to be interested in this stuff then go here-- www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp20.pdf Item C) Reticle Rangefinding

Yes I am very interested in this stuff and will spend a lot of time learning everything I can about it. Thanks Dale

[sscoyote]

This stuff is a kick to play with Dale. Couple years ago we were able to calculate the size of a target using a mil-dot reticle at a subtension smaller than the std. mil. to an accuracy level of .3" at 1000 yds. We about fell over when we measured it.

Diggler speaks the truth, and obviously understands the "systems". I just have a different application than what some may use their reticles for.

Another nice aspect of the highest power application for varmints is that the dot subtends a smaller measurment at 20. It should be very clsoe to a 1/2 inch dot instead of the mil-std. ~3/4", assuming they're using a .2 mil. dot. Most do these days. The dots were designed for rangefinding applications, though once again very seldom used for it. I was teaching a buddy how to use the mil-dot in his new 3.5-10x Leup.Mk 4 optic recently. We were shooting at an 18" gong set at 425 yds. and i told him to bracket the target and give me a reading. He told me some # that wasn't adding up right so i asked to check it out myself. When i bracketed the tgt. it appeared to occupy just a hair short of 1.2 mils--guessed at 1.18. Here's the equation--

18 x 100 / 3.6 / 1.18 = 424, 1 yd. short of lasered. I think we actually did fall over on that 1. Don't be mislead about reticle-rangefinding though. It gets geometrically less accurate the further out u go, and is dependent on size of subtension relative to tgt., magnification and resolving ability of optic, accurately guessing tgt. size (obviously the least accurate variable), and ability to interpolate between stadia points accurately.

[mrbigtexan]

Bring the review on Dale.

One of the first things that I would do to it (even before mounting) would be to get the recticle centered within the circumference of the Scope.

I would used to cut a couple of "U" shape notches in a shoebox to cradle the scope then turn it round n round while looking through it and using the dials to correct that lopsided wagon wheel.

There is now a much better way to do this. You place a mirror on the face of the objective lens and then look through the ocular as normal. You may have to experiment with your room lighting some but you should be able to see your crosshairs and a duplicate ghost crosshair which will show up as being white. You simply use the dials to center up the two sets of crosshairs and you are done!

We used to have a sticky on this procedure and I was going to refer you to it but it appears to be gone.

this is very interesting, what is the advantage to doing this? what about moving them to sight it in?

[Brithunter]

That's what windage adjustable mounts are for 

The scope works best with the reticle centered.