Author Topic: Flour in a blank load  (Read 2635 times)

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Offline Spuddy

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Flour in a blank load
« on: May 09, 2010, 05:06:56 PM »
Is it advisable to use flour in a blank load?  Why or why not.  Say you were shooting a carronade with 3/4 inch bore with 200 grains of F.  I have seen/heard about people putting flour in after the bp.  Just trying to stay safe. ;)

Offline Double D

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 05:17:50 PM »
Is it advisable to use flour in a blank load?  Why or why not.  Say you were shooting a carronade with 3/4 inch bore with 200 grains of F.  I have seen/heard about people putting flour in after the bp.  Just trying to stay safe. ;)

It will make the gun louder and more concussive.  Make sure the weight of the flour does not exceed the weight of the normal projectile.   Make sure the powder charge doesn't exceed the maximum for the projectile. Use an over powder wand seated agianst the powder. Use an over powder wad over the flour.

Offline JeffG

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 05:23:26 PM »
I have some experience with putting granular or organic materials over a powder charge, even in muzzle loading rifles. Baby ceareal, oatmeal flour sugar, newspaper and sawdust ..... These types of compounds tend to "obdurate" the bore, and could cause high pressures and a barrel failure.  The why is a complicated chain of events, it has to do with ignition, byproducts of combustion, moisture and molecular cohesion.  In short, it's not a good idea. If you want flour for a more accented barrel blast, put it in a caliber appropriate container, tin can, shot wad, something that cannot cock or compress in the bore, and will leave the bore easily. My 2 cents.
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Offline Zulu

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 05:57:30 PM »
When shooting my 10 pounder Parrott Rifle at re-enactments I usualy added one heaping cup of flour in a seperate baggie on top of 12 oz. of powder.  I tried it with and without the flour.  I can't tell you it ever made any difference.  I certainly never could tell any difference in the noise.  For some reason I still did it. ???  Habit I guess.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 06:10:44 PM »
Tim , ,are you looking for a flash from the flour for an extra 'effect' or just a bore sealer ?

BTW update tomorrow  ;)
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Spuddy

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 01:13:48 AM »
Tim , ,are you looking for a flash from the flour for an extra 'effect' or just a bore sealer ?

BTW update tomorrow  ;)

Bigger boom, more concussion.  Updates are good. ;D

Offline Double D

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 04:26:22 AM »
Bigger booms usually mean higher pressure, keep that in mind.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 10:33:30 AM »
I saw this on the History channel, and I think the show (Ill admit I wasn't paying all that much attention) was about historical explosions and fires. It related how when a spark, or source of flame came in contact with the flour particles floating in the air (that were there because of the process of milling flour) that explosions have occured that destroyed whole mills.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 11:02:03 AM »
Any kind of combustible particle that can be dispersed in air will become a good fuel/air explosive.  The quantity of material burning causes rapid expansion of the air and will build enough pressure to explode a grain elevator.
GG
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 11:07:22 AM »
the sound is directly proportional to the pressure

I know that when they unload ships with grain there is a hughe risk for dust explosions
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline armorer77

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 11:37:01 AM »
Dust explosions are a standard way to increase a small explosion into a large explosion . Armorer77

Offline dynomike1x1

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 01:11:34 PM »
I have seen people put flour in the powder bag w/ the powder. Supposed to make more smoke.
There are very few probablms that can't be solved with explosives.
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 01:29:10 PM »
dont think it actually generates any more smoke , maybe you can see the flour a little
what looks like smoke in an bp explosion is actually steam
Dan Pettersson
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better safe than sorry

Offline Zulu

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2010, 01:38:48 PM »
Steam? ???
Where is the moisture coming from?
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2010, 02:00:42 PM »
some chemical reaction in the combustion
I cant explain because I dont know exactly why or how
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Spuddy

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2010, 02:19:54 PM »
dont think it actually generates any more smoke , maybe you can see the flour a little
what looks like smoke in an bp explosion is actually steam

Now that is an impressive bit of trivia.  That explains my interest and fascination with steam engines.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2010, 02:25:54 PM »
as a kid we'd blow flour out of a straw across a birthday candle . Nice whoosh !

I'd try puting a baggie on top of your charge or maybe in front of a sabot . trying to get a bunch of air mixed in on ejection and FLAME ON ! ;D

I would NOT try to mix it with the black powder........at least not right off !

Yea I think in front of the sabot for a blank load . blank except for a sabot !

With a ball I wouldnt mess around with it . not at all .

...at least not right off  :D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2010, 02:45:00 PM »
there isnt many things thats actually are more beautiful then an steam engine , ok a cannon and maybe a radial aircraft engine
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Zulu

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2010, 02:58:47 PM »
dont think it actually generates any more smoke , maybe you can see the flour a little
what looks like smoke in an bp explosion is actually steam

Is the smoke really steam?  This dosen't make sense.  Somebody teach me.
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Offline dominick

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 03:08:39 PM »
dont think it actually generates any more smoke , maybe you can see the flour a little
what looks like smoke in an bp explosion is actually steam

I have read in a black powder manual where black powder is "hydroscopic"  meaning it attracts moisture. Tis the reason for the saying "Keep yer powder dry"..  Are there water molecules in the powder that convert to steam upon ignition or is it moisture in the air?  Never heard of this before. 

Offline dan610324

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 04:38:29 PM »
send an email to goex and ask them , I just read it some place that it was steam
they would know if anybody
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2010, 05:19:24 PM »
Most everything that burns produces: heat, water, CO2 and a bunch of other crud.  (Hydrogen-oxygen burning engines just produce heat and water.)  (Note the water condensing and dripping out of the tailpipe on a cool day.)

Raise the temperature and the water vapor goes to steam.  There is also an amout of particles that make up the smoke.

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2010, 05:25:26 PM »
There is some small moisture content in black powder so there would be some H2O in the combustion products, plus if there is any hydrogen left from the wood the charcoal was made from, that also would oxidize to water.  Quoting Wikipedia, "The burning of gunpowder does not take place as a single reaction, however, and the byproducts are not easily predicted. One study's results showed that it produced (in order of descending quantities): 55.91% solid products: potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, sulfur, potassium nitrate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, ammonium carbonate. 42.98% gaseous products: carbon dioxide, nitrogen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen, methane, 1.11% water."

The majority of the smoke is the solid products in finely dispersed form.  The water vapor may condense as the combustion products expand and cool but the quantity is so small that I doubt there is much visible as steam condensate.

The addition of flour mixed into the powder would likely cause the powder to burn less efficiently as there already is barely enough oxygen to support the combustion of the sulfur and carbon and hydogen of the powder's fuel elements.  Once the flour was dispersed into the air and oxygen was available in large amounts, the flour might burn if the temperature and density were correct.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2010, 05:27:08 PM »
When anything burns it is the process of oxydation.

Black powder has an oxydiser - potasium nitrate, KNO3? It will easily give off an oxygen atom or so.  THe carbon combines with the oxygen producing CO and CO2, The sulpher aides the combustion process - some of it produces H2SO4 (sulphuric acid) and perhaps hydrogen sulphide.

SOMEONE who's had a bit of chemistry (a few decades more recently than I) could write out the equations and you'd see just where each component came from and what it ended up as.
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Offline Zulu

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2010, 05:29:24 PM »
So, are we saying that black powder smoke is steam?  I don't see it ???
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2010, 05:51:06 PM »
So, are we saying that black powder smoke is steam?  I don't see it Huh?

No, I am saying there is a small steam (water vapor) component of the smoke, but most of the smoke is the solid combustion byproducts finely dispersed.

See this Wikipedia article for some chemical equations for the combustion of black powder.
GG
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Offline JeffG

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 12:15:10 PM »
Quote
Where is the moisture coming from?

That was why it's dangerous.  Combustion causes water vapor; under the huge amounts of pressure, the organics can be turned to goo, blocking the bore. Take a small amount of flour, put on the concrete, or anvil, mist it with a steam iron and smack it with a hammer.  Presto, instant solid.
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Offline dynomike1x1

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 02:47:47 PM »
I guess i typed that statment that i said wrong. What they did was pour the powder in the pouder bag first then the flour, they did'nt acully mix the powder and flour together, they just put them in the same bag. I made a powder bag filled w/powder and a powder bag filled w/flour and all i did was make a bullet.
There are very few probablms that can't be solved with explosives.
2/115FA

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 02:54:47 PM »
like a sintered metal ?
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline p51

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Re: Flour in a blank load
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 04:50:31 PM »
I once read when they filmed the tank scenes in the movie, “The beast” they used water containers to simulate the weight of the real round to cause the tank guns to recoil like they should and to create a bigger bang. If you haven’t, watch the start of that movie and you’ll be impressed with their results, it pretty much made steam and made the barrels recoil back quite a bit (maybe not as far back into battery than with a live round, though). I wonder if this would work effectively with muzzleloading guns as well, as long as the water doesn’t leak out before you can set off the charge…
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