Author Topic: Troopers were a little too forceful  (Read 1851 times)

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Offline Sourdough

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Troopers were a little too forceful
« on: May 12, 2010, 07:55:11 AM »
I know this woman, and her father well.  As does most of Fairbanks.  She has assisted her father in the training of almost every person with a concealed carry permit in Central Alaska.  Got this story from the Fairbanks Daily News Miner, today.  Alaska is a right to carry state.  Anyone legal to own a gun can carry it concealed or in the open.  It is not uncommon to walk into the grocery and see a man walking around with a holstered gun on his hip, just like in the old west.  We don't think anything about it since most of us are carrying ourselves.  Only the newbie city folks get upset.

 

Woman files complaint against Alaska State Troopers' response to her carrying a legal handgun
by Jeff Richardson / jrichardson@newsminer.com

FAIRBANKS — A former Fairbanks police officer has filed a complaint against two Alaska State Troopers, saying they badly overreacted to her decision to legally carry an unholstered handgun while taking a walk last week.

Beth Allard said she was carrying a snub-nosed .38-special revolver while walking near her mother’s home off Farmers Loop on Thursday evening when she was contacted by two Alaska State Troopers.

Allard sent an e-mail with her version of the incident to local media on Monday and accused the troopers, Benjamin Enders and Dru Neason, of treating her in a demeaning and intimidating manner. She said they owe her a face-to-face apology and should receive a written reprimand.

“I couldn’t believe that’s the kind of judgment they’d use on a call like this,” she said.

Allard, who works as a process server, was a Fairbanks Police Department officer from 1980-82. She also is a certified firearms instructor and the daughter of Joe Nava, a prominent local gun safety and gun rights advocate. Nava has a weekly program, “Shooter’s Corner,” on KFAR radio.

Allard said none of that came up during the stop last Thursday.

“I never told them my background, because it shouldn’t matter,” she said.

Allard said she was taking a walk while carrying a handgun for protection. Without a fanny pack or holster to store the revolver in, she chose to carry it in her hand instead. Allard said she kept the small pistol, which is roughly the size of a water bottle, pointed down with her finger away from the trigger, a method she frequently uses while jogging.

She said Enders and Neason approached her with guns drawn as she walked on a dirt road off Auburn Drive. She was upset that the contact stretched on for about 20 minutes and, she said, included an angry exchange with accusations of her acting recklessly and carrying the weapon in an unsafe manner.

Allard was not arrested and said the troopers were correct in making the initial contact, but she believes she should have been released promptly because she was not violating any law. Allard said she has been carrying the small pistol that way for the past 15 years and had never previously been contacted by authorities.

In a statement, troopers apologized for any inconvenience to Allard and expressed regret that she felt the contact with troopers was inappropriate. The statement defended the stop, however, saying it was “reasonable” for troopers to demand that Allard secure the firearm while walking in a public area near a school.

Troopers spokeswoman Megan Peters agreed that Allard was not breaking any law by carrying the unholstered weapon, but she said a trooper response to such a situation is almost guaranteed.

Peters said a citizen report of a woman walking with a gun in her hand on Baylor Boulevard led to the initial contact by troopers. Pearl Creek Elementary School is located on adjoining Auburn Drive, which Peters said made the response even more urgent. Allard said she was more than a mile from the school when the contact was made.

“We’re trying to avoid any type of huge incident that ended badly,” Peters said.

Peters said the incident ended when Allard agreed to put the handgun in a small jacket pocket. Allard was hesitant to take that step, saying the tiny slit was too small to actually hold the revolver.

Peters declined to say whether either trooper involved in the incident faces any discipline, citing personnel confidentiality policies. The AST statement, however, asserts that “the responding troopers acted in the best interest of public safety.”

Contact staff writer Jeff Richardson at 459-7518.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 08:04:09 AM »
she sounds like a very educated and well informed woman.   good for her for holding her ground and taking the right course of action. 

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2010, 08:27:16 AM »
I'll make this short and to the point-

As a former street cop with over 30 years in law enforcement, I'll say the woman involved in this incident is an idiot.  I don't care what her back ground is, or who her father is, there is a big difference between openly carrying a hand gun in a holster, and walking down the road with it in your hand.  A handgun In your hand signifies to any body with common sense the suggestion of imminent use, same as if you were walking down the street with a long gun being carried with the gun up at your shoulder.  It's just common sense, and she was lucky it ended as peacefully as it did.  Most cops, who have seen, or know of fellow officers and civilians who have been shot and killed, and who have families and loved ones waiting at home, are going to, without a doubt, approach such a person with extreme caution.  Common sense, for crying out loud.. 

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 08:28:01 AM »
Sounds like Brandishing a weapon.  The police may be used to seeing someone with a fire arm on them but when one is out there may be somethng wrong and they were right to stop and find out what is going on.
Carrying on ones person is one thing carrying in your hand is another.
If she had used the gun a few minutes earlier to defend herself and the police just waved and drove by then I could see a problem.
Having the officers stop her and ask what is going on is another.  Walking around with a handgun in your hand is brandishing a firearm and is illegal in most areas.
Sorry, I am going to back the police on this one with out hearing their side of the story.
You all need to stop listening to Obama where the Police are always wrong and racist.

Offline wreckhog

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 08:36:45 AM »
I know this woman, and her father well.  As does most of Fairbanks.  She has assisted her father in the training of almost every person with a concealed carry permit in Central Alaska.....Allard said she was taking a walk while carrying a handgun for protection. Without a fanny pack or holster to store the revolver in, she chose to carry it in her hand instead. Allard said she kept the small pistol, which is roughly the size of a water bottle, pointed down with her finger away from the trigger, a method she frequently uses while jogging.

Is jogging with a pistol in hand taught in Basic Pistol class in AK? Seems like an opportunity to trip and have an accidental discharge. Those cops may have saved her life.

Offline searlock

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 08:54:05 AM »
i agree, this woman was not very smart. she should have had a FOP sticker on her jogging outfit somewhere so the cops who didn't know her from adam could have instantly recognized her as a jack booted thug member of the brotherhood.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2010, 08:56:53 AM »
  boy, to listen to you guys, cops would be totally justified in gunning down anyone north of hwy 29 in wisconsin from november 19th to the 30th.    sounds like we each need our own police officer to escort us 24/7 to save us from ourselves.    GET REAL!!!!
   do i have a problem with the cops stopping and seeing what is going on?  nope.   do i think they should have been cautious?  yep.    to listen to you guys, it sounds like the anti gunners have done their jobs and gotten in your head and you dont even know it.    this isnt your state, and it isnt your states laws.   she did not break any laws, and here you guys are trying to make her a criminal.   excuse me while i step outside to puke...... :-X

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 09:14:47 AM »
 boy, to listen to you guys, cops would be totally justified in gunning down anyone north of hwy 29 in wisconsin from november 19th to the 30th.    sounds like we each need our own police officer to escort us 24/7 to save us from ourselves.    GET REAL!!!!
   do i have a problem with the cops stopping and seeing what is going on?  nope.   do i think they should have been cautious?  yep.    to listen to you guys, it sounds like the anti gunners have done their jobs and gotten in your head and you dont even know it.    this isnt your state, and it isnt your states laws.   she did not break any laws, and here you guys are trying to make her a criminal.   excuse me while i step outside to puke...... :-X
Now wait a minute.
There is a difference between hunting, carring a gun and having one out and in your hand.
If I were walking down your street and had a gun on my hip you would wave and say hello.  If it were in my pocket you would not know and still wave.
If I were walking out of the field with either a rifle or shotgun and walking down your street back to my house with the rifle slung or the shotgun open you again would wave and ask if I saw anything, maybe even ask if you can go with me next time.
If I were to walk down your street with a hangun in my hand.  You would call your kinds into the house and possibly go get your own gun expecting trouble not sure why I have an easy to conceal handgun in my hand.  You may call the police and as you said you would expect the police to stop me.
If I was combative or did the "you know me, my Dad or what have you" I would expect to be Zapped with the Tazer.
It is all perception. I can see the problem if she had a long gun in her hand or had one of the really large hunting handguns like a T/C with 12" or longer barrels but a snub nose 38.  There is a problem and the police were right to question her.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 09:25:20 AM »
I support legal open carry to the max. The gun was small for bears if they were close . Was she in danger ? A holstered gun if legal should be no problem but as BE stated that gun was ready to rock and roll . She could have made a move that seemed like a threat to either cop and been dead right .
 Every class i have taken in self defense stresses not to look like a threat when a cop might show up !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 09:58:06 AM »
I'll make this short and to the point-

As a former street cop with over 30 years in law enforcement, I'll say the woman involved in this incident is an idiot.  I don't care what her back ground is, or who her father is, there is a big difference between openly carrying a hand gun in a holster, and walking down the road with it in your hand.  A handgun In your hand signifies to any body with common sense the suggestion of imminent use, same as if you were walking down the street with a long gun being carried with the gun up at your shoulder.  It's just common sense, and she was lucky it ended as peacefully as it did.  Most cops, who have seen, or know of fellow officers and civilians who have been shot and killed, and who have families and loved ones waiting at home, are going to, without a doubt, approach such a person with extreme caution.  Common sense, for crying out loud.. 

Larry



I agree!
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Offline Ron 1

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 09:58:49 AM »
 i to have to agree the gun should have been in a holster or  at least in her pocket.
anyone with a gun in there hand shows intent.  
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 09:59:05 AM »
 boy, to listen to you guys, cops would be totally justified in gunning down anyone north of hwy 29 in wisconsin from november 19th to the 30th.    sounds like we each need our own police officer to escort us 24/7 to save us from ourselves.    GET REAL!!!!
   do i have a problem with the cops stopping and seeing what is going on?  nope.   do i think they should have been cautious?  yep.    to listen to you guys, it sounds like the anti gunners have done their jobs and gotten in your head and you dont even know it.    this isnt your state, and it isnt your states laws.   she did not break any laws, and here you guys are trying to make her a criminal.   excuse me while i step outside to puke...... :-X
Juggling 3 loaded and cocked SAA's after dipping your hands in extra virgin olive oil 502 feet away from a school might be legal too. Don't mean some guy in uniform ain't gonna say "What up yo."

Offline myronman3

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 10:04:28 AM »
according to her, she did not throw out who she was.  if she had, i suspect it would have been over right then and there.    and, how do you know she was in a neighborhood, and not just out on a road walking?  
  myself, the more guns around me, the safer i feel.  i have been around guns my entire life and things have always been peaceful.   it is when there are no guns around that things tend to get dangerous.   i am all for the cops stopping to check out the report they got (by law i am sure they have to), and i bet this woman was more than understanding about it.   the FACT is, she broke no law.   and i willing to bet they tried to intimidate her.   obviously she was compliant with what they wanted, as she was never charged with anything.  SHE BROKE NO LAW.   i would be interested to see the dash cam footage on this one.  
    you start caving just a little bit, next thing you know, it is like wisconsin, illinois, or washington d.c.;  give them an inch and they will take a mile.  
  

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 11:14:33 AM »
Fact is they let her go . Cops sometimes push a bit to see a reaction , to check you out . She must have passed the test .
She stood her ground and they did their job . They could have taken her in for questions i would guess . Was she accused of anything ? I was once pinned to a wall by two under cover cops until they could ID me . They were on site to arrest a guy who looked somewhat like me and who had killed his wife and a couple others . They didn't come back and say they were sorry . Didn't expect them to . Her bringing  all the attention to the deal will only stress relations with the community and cops in the future . If they abused her or took away her rights then take um to court .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Norm1057

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2010, 11:55:19 AM »
 boy, to listen to you guys, cops would be totally justified in gunning down anyone north of hwy 29 in wisconsin from november 19th to the 30th.    sounds like we each need our own police officer to escort us 24/7 to save us from ourselves.    GET REAL!!!!
   do i have a problem with the cops stopping and seeing what is going on?  nope.   do i think they should have been cautious?  yep.    to listen to you guys, it sounds like the anti gunners have done their jobs and gotten in your head and you dont even know it.    this isnt your state, and it isnt your states laws.   she did not break any laws, and here you guys are trying to make her a criminal.   excuse me while i step outside to puke...... :-X

I'd agree with you. It's a good thing the officers had her place her gun into an unsecured pocket versus safely in her hand. Typical atitude of little people with a little power!

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 02:09:03 PM »
First of all she was not jogging, she knows better.  The area where she lives is not an area to go unarmed in.  Bears and Wolves are prevalent in the area.  She had just came home from work, and the clothes she was wearing did not have pockets conducive to carrying a revolver in.  She was walking to her Mom's house just up the road in a rural area.

The act is not uncommon here.  I often do the same thing during the summer.  I'm out in the garage, puttering around, wearing shorts, tee shirt, and sneakers.  My friend Russ or Norm calls and needs some help doing something.  I grab my .460 Smith and walk down to their house.  I don't bother to put on the shoulder holster, or a fanny pack.  I just carry it in my hand till I get to where I am going.  I don't dare to walk down there without it.  But putting on a holster, just to go down the street is not worth it.  So I am guilty of doing the same thing myself, as is most of my neighbors.

We have a bunch of new Troopers that have very authoritarian attitudes.  Who rather than being friendly, are very aggressive and confrontational right off the bat.  It is a problem we have discussed with the governor last week.  This is just more fuel to that fire.
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 02:31:33 PM »
What does one do with the .460 when they get to mom/Norm's? Lay it on the coffee table and hopefully remember to get it when one leaves? What if there are 2 year olds running around?

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 02:46:36 PM »
I usually lay it on a work bench or shelf.  No there are no 2 year olds running around.  Their kids are grown and gone, mine is still home but he is 21.  When their kids were home, it only took shooting my .454 once and they did not want to have anything to do with it again.  Our kids grew up with guns and there was no mystery there anyway.  And as far as forgetting it, no way, you don't even think of making that walk without something on your person or in your hand.  Especially this time of year when the Mama Moose and Mama Bears are in aggressive moods.  Getting stomped, clawed, or bitten is not my idea of adventure and fun.  The Moose are dropping their calves now and the Bears have just came out.  I see four of five Moose daily, and two or three bears a week.

As for other peoples kids, they would put it up where small kids would not have access to it.  Most kids in this area take the 4-H shooting program when 10, and after that know not to touch unless necessary.  Yes I've seen 12 year olds come running into the cabin grab a rifle, walk out and shoot a Grizzly, trying to break into the smoke house.

Some of you may remember, it was last year I was in the back yard trying to call in a Fox.  I had my .17HMR in my hand, when in came a Grizzly.  So in my neighborhood you keep a gun handy all the time.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline Brett

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 06:54:14 PM »
Sourdough,  Grt your friend a Clipdraw or set of Barami Hip Grip Grips before she gets shot.

http://www.clipdraw.com/store/index.php?rn=394&action=show_detail

http://www.baramihipgrip.com/

 
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Offline Dand

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 07:13:06 PM »
I have met Joe Nava a couple times, have mutual friends, and may have met Beth. I know Farmers Loop and don't blame Beth for carrying. If not for bears or wolves, an unaccompanied woman is wise to be careful. But I sure don't blame the troopers for stopping either. I tend to side with the concern for brandishing. I think Beth should have shown more discretion and found something to cover the gun, even to drape a sweater over her arm.

But its true too that many police seem to ramp up awfully fast these days. Maybe these guys are some of the newer recruits and a little less certain of themselves?

Glad nobody lost their head. Or worse.

Why the heck don't women's clothes have pockets anyway? Pet peeve of mine with my wife always searching for her keys.
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2010, 01:34:05 AM »
How do you fit cosmetics, wallet, tampons, keys, a copy of Oprah magazine, and 10lbs of other crap in a pocket? Women carry purses, so they don't use pockets. Bulging pockets spoil the look of the clothing.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 01:53:21 AM »
 "She said they owe her a face-to-face apology..."

 Being a gentleman, if I were one of the officers involved I'd be glad to apologize to her. It would go something like this...

 "Mrs. Allard, I'm sorry if my actions appeared to be inappropriate from your perspective. I respect your right to carry a gun in your hand and hope that any encounter between yourself and law enforcement can be avoided in the future."

 Then I'd add...

 "Would you be willing to accept a gift of an extra long sleeve sweatshirt? I'd be more than happy to buy one for you."

 
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 02:35:57 AM »
Maybe she should change from work clothes to play clothes when she gets home .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline myronman3

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2010, 03:08:42 AM »
 and sometimes i wonder how it is we have come to live in a nanny state.  then i read a thread like this, and it is all too clear to me; many of you want exactly that.   american grit and resolve seem to be hard to come by these days.   
   i dont live in alaska.  i live in a liberal state where we cant even carry concealed (legally).   i understand alaska is a different place than where i live.  i dont understand why you keep trying to apply your situations to this situation.   
   there have been times here where the pistol is in my hand and at the ready while walking.   how many times have we discussed in these forums about drawing a pistol when split seconds count?  if a critter is hiding in the brush, they generally wait until the prey is close before they make their move.  perhaps many of you feel-gooders would be happier when this woman needs her gun in that split second and cant get to it fast enough because it is nestled away under her sweater to appease some twit that moved in from kalifornia. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2010, 03:24:00 AM »
I don't have a problem with her carrying it in hand . Its her attitude she is above being checked . She walked away and she didn't like what they said , so what they can't say whats on their mind ? If it was illegal for them to do so bring them up on charges . WANG !
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2010, 03:27:09 AM »
And yea some do want a nanny state , hey they want a gun that they can't feel kick but expect it to knock a bad guy back 50 feet and off his feet doing flips . Why wouldn't they want eveything done for them . Some wouldn't work in a pie factory as a taster .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline magooch

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2010, 04:15:48 AM »
No one is more pro-gun than me, but there is a difference between being pro-gun and anti-cop.  Who in their right mind would expect a cop in this day and time to simply wave and ignore someone carrying a weapon in their hand?  For that matter, I can't imagine any time, or any place where it would be prudent for a leo to ignore it.  And I don't believe Alaska is any different in that regard than a lot of other places.  I've spent time in Alaska when it probably was just a bit wilder and woolier than it is these days.  Even back then, if I were carrying a handgun in my hand, I would be silly not to expect a cop to at least inquire about what was going on.

OOOps, I just thought of a time and a place where in fact the cops did ignore a fella who regularly waved a gun around as the traffic passed by.  That would be in Parhump, Nevada.  I don't know who the guy was, or what he was promoting, but he used to do that all the time.

Anyway, like it, or not, carrying a firearm by its nature, inherently invokes a very special degree of responsibility.  Part of that responsibility is to not draw special attention to yourself and cause others to wonder just what the heck you are doing.  Perhaps the troopers--being Alaskans--probably should have had an inkling of what was going on, but still, they would be less than prudent to not at least confirm that the lady was not in some form of distress.  I do believe the officers should have been very polite and non-threatening.
Swingem

Offline Brett

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2010, 05:41:56 AM »
It's legal to own a (censored word) too but you can't just go walking around in public holding it in your hand. 
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2010, 06:10:42 AM »
I'm thinking that context needs to be considered.  In town her method of carry would, IMHO, be inappropriate, but in what sounds like a somewhat rural setting it could be reasonable.  Sounds like both sides over reacted a bit, which caused things to escalate.  The LEOs had to respond to the call, but why not drive up along side her and ask her rather than draw down on her?  And she should have known that if LE did get a call about her that the responding officers would be kind of edgy, so why not set the gun down and step back from it? 

About the troopers telling her to "secure" the weapon - sounds as if it was secure, firmly in her hand. Secure is very subjective.  Other than the "Actions open and bench your weapons!"

Oh, and the former Californians (likely ex-Marin co. residents) who reported her should be told to get a life and chill out.  Some people do know how to handle firearms, DiFi is NOT an expert on it.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Troopers were a little too forceful
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2010, 07:50:37 AM »
HS. She broke not a single law for her neck of the woods.
These cops were not only too agressive but obviously wanted a confrontation.
There is not a thing unseafe about carrying a gun in your hand----NOTHING.
Matter of fact it might be safer than in a purse.
I have walked woods with a pistol, shotgun,  rifle in my hands==seriously-what is even coming close to being unsafe are we talking about.
These boys need to grow up and stop being so macho minded.
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TEXAS, by GOD