Use of C&B revolvers

[AtlLaw]

I was going back over some old posts looking for this or that when I saw where gatofoe (is that Jawja Tofu?   ) said that Elmer Keith learned how to load a C&B revolver from Civil War Vets in 1912.  This got me to thinking...   

I believe that muzzle loading BP rifles were regularly used as a primary weapon, at least in the Southern Appalachians, long after (post WWI) cartridge rifles came into general use.

I have also heard that Wild Bill H., killed in '76 I believe, carried 1851 Navy's but preferred 44's if he knew he was going into a fight, and also that he carried Richards Navy cartridge conversions.

Has anybody ever heard anything about the continued use of C&B revolvers during the period after 1873?  I'm wondering if they continued to be carried as a matter of course from the old west into the modern (20th Century) era.  Would some of these 60+ year old Civil War Vets still carry a C&B revolver as their primary sidearm in Montana in 1912.

[simonkenton]

We had a guy on another forum, he was a World War 2 vet. I say "had," Joe quit posting 2 years ago and I believe he must have passed away.
At any rate, Joe lived in New Jersey.
He talked about riding the train into New York City and buying original Colt cap and ball revolvers. This would have been in the 1930s, he was a teenager.
At that time these guns were just considered, more or less as old junk. They bought them for a song, took them back to New Jersey and these boys shot them all the time.

[jlchucker]

I was going back over some old posts looking for this or that when I saw where gatofoe (is that Jawja Tofu?   ) said that Elmer Keith learned how to load a C&B revolver from Civil War Vets in 1912.  This got me to thinking...   

Has anybody ever heard anything about the continued use of C&B revolvers during the period after 1873?  I'm wondering if they continued to be carried as a matter of course from the old west into the modern (20th Century) era.  Would some of these 60+ year old Civil War Vets still carry a C&B revolver as their primary sidearm in Montana in 1912.

A definite answer to your question would be pretty hard to find documentation for, I would think.  This was a widespread country back then--and even more rural than now.  Most gunowners back then had to save up to buy the one or two guns that they had, as wages were low. The average gunowner was not typically a reader of monthly gunrags, and websites were something unheard of. This would lead me to guess that c&b revolvers were used commonly for at least another 20 or 30 years, instead of being replaced by everyone abruptly.  The guy in the western cabin or eastern farm, who made tiny wages, probably never came to town more than once every couple of weeks, and was usually looking for many other things to spend his $10 a month (if that much) on.  Generally, it was a "make do with what you have" society.  My own guess is, that by the 20th century, except in certain backwaters, C&B revolvers and muzzle loading rifles were on the wane, but most likely not in the 1870's and 1880's, in spite of what you see on TV westerns.  Ammo was another consideration back then, too.  I read somewhere that Hickock stuck with Navy Colts because centerfire and rimfire ammo back then may have been less reliable than what he'd been used to. At first, at least, this might have been true.  Even now, a properly loaded C&B revolver can be pretty reliable--and pretty deadly too.

[coyotejoe]

Since it can only be speculation, here's my speculation. Hickock's famous navy Colts were ornate presentation pieces and he probably never "carried" them at all. In the famous photo they are shown stuck under a sash butt forward because that is the way the photographer placed them. People ignore the bare bladed butcher knife also stuck under the sash and say "that's the way Wild Bill did it"!
 Bull, just try carrying a revolver that way for a few minutes and you'll know it doesn't work. With the cylinder above the sash, as in the photo, the guns are top heavy and will topple over if you bend even slightly. With the cylinder under the sash they will slip down as you walk about. And certainly a frontiersman like Hickock would have better sense than to carry a large knife with a naked blade. The photograph was totally posed by the photographer. Hickock didn't have holsters for those revolvers because they resided in their presentation case.
 There are many photos of Hickock in which there are no firearms at all. It is my understanding that in his marshal days he commonly carried only a pair of singleshot derringers in his coat pockets.
  I'm sure many people who didn't "live by the gun" were content to continue to use whatever they had for so long as it continued to work. The store keeper's under-the-counter gun was probably kept loaded for as long as the store keeper lived. If he had a functional C&B revolver why change?
The Army gave me a tour in Turkey in the 1960's and many Turks still hunted with muzzleloading shotguns.

[idaram]

My GGG Uncle Charlie carried his 1860 Army Colt until he died in 1902.  He was the gold stage shotgun rider, (From Idaho City to Boise) so he did use it.  I am now the proud owner. 
Regards,

Andy

[AtlLaw]

It's good to be validated!     What y'all said is about the way I figured it.  Thinking back, I remember my father, who was born in 1900, telling stories about when he was a kid.  Even though the automobile had been in mass production for years¹, the main source of transportation, hauling and the like was the horse.  Heck, when I was a kid my cousin Rupert used to hay our fields with a horse drawn cutter and rake!  Then he hitched that big old draft horse up to a wagon to haul it all to the barn! 

But then again, we are not talking about transportation.  People carried handguns because their life may have depended on it.  Or maybe I'm over dramatising the dangers of the old west.

Also, it is my understanding that most of Colt's early Modle P production went to the Army and therefore weren't easily avalable to the general public for some time after '73.

¹"The first automobile to be produced in quantity was the 1901 Curved Dash Oldsmobile, which was built in the United States by Ransom E. Olds. Modern automobile mass production, and its use of the modern industrial assembly line, is credited to Henry Ford of Detroit, Michigan, who had built his first gasoline-powered car in 1896.  Ford began producing his Model T in 1908, and by 1927, when it was discontinued, over 18 million had rolled off the assembly line."  [From ideafinder.com/]

[AtlLaw]

My GGG Uncle Charlie carried his 1860 Army Colt until he died in 1902.  He was the gold stage shotgun rider, (From Idaho City to Boise) so he did use it.  I am now the proud owner.

Hey Andy!  Glad you decided to post!  Like 'chucker said, I imagine it would be pretty hard to find documentation on this aspect of history so family rememberences are all important!     Relax boys, that doesn't mean I'm going to tell a "Stone Wall Elliott" story!   

But this goes along with my last post.  A handgun to your Uncle was a basic tool of his trade.  As important as a hammer or saw to a carpenter.  And he elected to carry a C&B revolver long after cartridge guns should have been readily available.     Wonderfully interesting!   

[NickSS]

I have studied the era and have read a couple of things lifted from sporting magazines of the late 1880 up to the early 1900s.  I read at least two articles that dealt with cap and ball revolvers.  Both stated that the old style revolvers when properly loaded were as effective as modern revolvers.  The tone of the articles were that many were still in everyday use.  I have also looked at many pictures of frontier life and have noticed many ML rifles and C&B revolvers hanging ready for use.  I believe that many older guns were regularly used for many years after the CW for two reasons.  First they were cheap as you could get an 1860 army for $3 or $4 where a new Peace Maker was $12 to $15. And second Availability of cartridge guns was not as great.  The government sold off thousands of revolvers after the war but colt and S&W were making only a few thousand at most per year.  It probably took 20 to 30 years after the CW was over just to make enough cartridge revolvers so that they were in common use and another 10 or 20 years until they surplanted the old C&B revolvers for all but the very poor gun owner.

[coyotejoe]

There also was the option of a cartridge conversion, the converted Colts were darn good guns.

[AtlLaw]

So...  I guess it's safely within the relm of possability to say that C&B revolvers were in common use during the 1875 - 1885 time frame.  Based on the responses so far no one seems to disagree.   

Might another reason for the continued use of C&B revolvers be that when the need for a new weapon was felt, the first choice might have been a repeating rifle?     After all he (he being our average 1880's cowboy) already had a multi-shot revolver.  Wouldn't a repeating rifle like the Henry, '66 or '73 Winchester be the logical priority choice for a new firearm?   

[Gatofeo]

I recall reading, many years ago so it may have been Elmer Keith, that the cap and ball sixguns were regularly used into the mid 1880s.
The reason given was that their ammo was very cheap compared to cartridge guns, and cartridges might not always be available. But you could generally count upon finding caps, bar lead and gunpowder in town.
This basically echoes what other posters here suggested.
The local blacksmith, for a minor fee, could cast a few hundred balls and conicals if you supplied the lead and bullet mould.

As for my name ... Gatofeo means "ugly cat" in Spanish. The origiin of the family name remains clouded.
I've traced the Gatofeo family history back as far as the ancient Roman Empire, to the reign of Gatofeus the Questionable.
During the middle ages there was a teutonic knight by the name of Gatofeo the Timid, whose stirring battle cry was, "You go ahead! I'll be along in a bit!"
Yes, through the ages, the family name of Gatofeo has been at the forefront of history.

[AtlLaw]

Yes, through the ages, the family name of Gatofeo has been at the forefront of history.

 

Shoot!  Maybe we ought to post some of ourt family histories!     If you folk been in the forefront, mine musta been in the rear there  somewheres!     Hey!  What about the eZine project?   

Anyway, I got a roll of that wx stripping felt and a punch set, so I'm ready to have some fun!   

[gstewart44]

I was going back over some old posts looking for this or that when I saw where gatofoe (is that Jawja Tofu?   ) said that Elmer Keith learned how to load a C&B revolver from Civil War Vets in 1912.  This got me to thinking...  

I believe that muzzle loading BP rifles were regularly used as a primary weapon, at least in the Southern Appalachians, long after (post WWI) cartridge rifles came into general use.

I have also heard that Wild Bill H., killed in '76 I believe, carried 1851 Navy's but preferred 44's if he knew he was going into a fight, and also that he carried Richards Navy cartridge conversions.
.  Would some of these 60+ year old Civil War Vets still carry a C&B revolver as their primary sidearm in Montana in 1912.

Richard - I believe that the answer to your question lies in the info you have brought forth in your opening paragraph   ......The CW vets most certainly had learned how to load CB revolvers from their exposure in the war.  And it is safe to say that they continued to load and discharge said revolvers for many years after.    Now in 1912 they may not have 'carried' but they certainly still knew 'how' to load a CB revolver.  

As for Appalachia, my grandfather was born in 1906 and he grew up hunting with a muzzleloading rifle that had been passed down in his family for generations.  His family were Scottish and German immigrants that settled in the mountains of E Tenn/W NC going back to the early 1800's.    

Now for BPCB carry, I kept a 1851 navy stoked and in my glove box of my '65 fairlane for 15 yrs as my primary defense.    Never had to use deadly force with it but I did give a demonstration to a drunk who was threatening to break his empty likker bottle on my head.    when that fireball and cloud of smoke came out that boy acted real sober a beat a hasty retreat.     that was 1993.    I have since modernized my collection with a covey of SW 1917's in 45 acp.

[AtlLaw]

my grandfather was born in 1906 ...

So... your GRANDFATHER was born in 1906 huh...    And you say that knowing my FATHER was born in 1900!    You making some kind of age joke there boy!?  

Don't nobody better be askin me how long I continued to carry a C&B revolver after the war...  

 

[AtlLaw]

I think the first choice of firearms for folks of meager funds, or even of greater funds, was the shotgun.

Ya know, I thought of that.  And I believe you are right in a general sence.  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber, when limited to working cowboys and others who routinely carried sidearms, would this still be so?

[FourBee]

So...  I guess it's safely within the relm of possability to say that C&B revolvers were in common use during the 1875 - 1885 time frame.  Based on the responses so far no one seems to disagree.  

Might another reason for the continued use of C&B revolvers be that when the need for a new weapon was felt, the first choice might have been a repeating rifle?    After all he (he being our average 1880's cowboy) already had a multi-shot revolver.  Wouldn't a repeating rifle like the Henry, '66 or '73 Winchester be the logical priority choice for a new firearm?  

Something like this?  Well; I think this cowboy's time was in the 1870's. 

[StrawHat]

Shotguns and old muskets were the common guns on the prairies and out west as I read the stories.  The WInchesters and Model P Colts came in much later.  Model P's were for the military and the few that made it to civilians were probably ex military.  And the conversions of the C&B revolvers were much cheaper than the new fangled cartridge revolvers. 

It is my thought that the gun that won the West was in reality either the single barreled shotgun or the 50-70 trapdoor.  (If you believe a gun really won the West but that is fodder for a different thread.)

[Dixie Dude]

Makes sense that cap and ball were used long after the introduction of cartridges.  People couldn't afford another type weapon.  Even in 1940 at the start of WWII, 40% of the American people still lived on farms.  Guns were handed down from generation to generation.  I have acquired a Model 1873 Trapdoor Springfield made in 1884 by the inscription on the stock.  I bought parts and repaired it.  It is now shootable, but haven't tried it yet.  This gun belonged to my friends grandfather and he inherited it.  He didn't want it as it had a coat of rust on it.  So, I cleaned it up with fine steel wool.  He thought it was an H&R replica, but it wasn't.  He also gave me 3 other weapons all maded from the 1930's to the 1950's.  They were in his grandfathers basement for about 10 years before someone found them.  His grandfather died in the 1970's.  His grandfather may have inherited the 45-70.  Don't know.  The other 3 were probably bought by his grandfather during the timeframe 30's-50's.  One is a bolt action 410 Savage.  One is a .22 mag Savage, one is an H&R Topper chrome plated 12 ga full choke 32" barrel.  Those 3 still fired. 

[Pat/Rick]

+1 on the shotguns being the principle arm. Years ago one of my college instructers, who was a gun guy also, told me that his grandparents on both sides were real honest to goodness cowboys and ranchers, told him how every (ranch) house had a shotgun. When they went to town, the shotgun went with them and that the westerns have it all wrong, not everybody had a winchester and a colt army. C&B revolvers were prevelant, there were other items of greater importance to purchase.

[StrawHat]

Another take on this.  As a carpenter, I always told the apprentices to buy the best tools they could afford.  Would not the cowboy or stage guard or ?? feel the same way?  If so, consider the choices they had and how once that choice was made, say C&B revovler, he would be reluctant to change.  Also consider the average cowboy, gaurd, sherriff, ??, probably would not shoot 50 shots in his whole life so  C&B revolver would certainly be sufficient in their eyes.  

I have a 3" 1860 that has done a considerable number of miles with me and I did not feel undergunned.