Large areas with no game. US F&W and NPS taking over

[Sourdough]

Was talking to a Guide this week about hunting and areas not to bother with.  We both agree, there is large expanses of land with no game what so ever.  I have crossed mountains and gone into valleys where there was not a track of Moose, Caribou, Sheep, or Bear.  Just an occasinal old Wolf track.  I've gone into the mountains in Febuary, after our last snow was in December.  There I found no tracks of any thing but birds.  No Moose, and that was surprising.  I spent three days looking for tracks and found old Wolf tracks and trails crossing the area.

I came back and questioned the biologist about it.  They just shrug their shoulders and say maybe the game moves out during the winter.  No that area is prime winter Moose habitate.  Go in during the summer and still no game.  Go there during the fall and no game.  The only thing I see is old wolf tracks.  The Biologist just shrugs their shoulders and say some areas just don't suport game. 

Talked with old guides, and old retired Biologist.  They tell me those areas used to be teaming with wildlife, back in the 60s and early 70s.  Back then the Guides and Natives performed preditor control in those areas.  The Guides would fly over the area during the winter and shoot the wolves they could find.  Then the state made it Illigal to shoot same day you are airborne, or to shoot from an aircraft.  The Natives for hundreds of generations had been taking short little willow sticks and sharpening the ends.  Then they would bend them into a circle and squeeze a ball of grease around it.  Then freeze the ball of grease.  They would make dozens of these grease balls and spread them out on the trails.  The wolves would come along and eat the grease balls, swollowing them whole.  Then after getting into the stomach the willow twig would thaw and straighten, sticking into the stomach or intestines.  Ultamately killing the wolf.  With few wolves in the area, the game, Moose, Caribou, and sheep, flourished.  It was easier to feed their families, and the dead wolves were picked up and the fur used to make clothing for the families.


Then the state stopped the practice by the Guides and the Natives.  The number of wolves exploded and the game numbers suffered.  Today it is not politically correct for the Biologist to point that out so they just claim ignorance.  And Alaska is rapidly becoming a big waste land of no game.  It's going to get aq lot worse, Mr we can't shoot those poor wolves Tony Knowles has been appointed to a high level position in the National Park Service.  So now the Park Service and the US Fish and Wildelife are attempting to take over the management of Fish and Game in Alaska saying Federal Law trumps state law.  They have changed seasons and meathods and means of hunting and trapping on Federal lands.  The federal government owns 74% of Alaska like they own large portions of other western states.  Look out Utah, Arizonia, New Mexico, and all the rest of you western states.  We are the test bed.

[BUGEYE]

Wolves up north and now coyotes in the south.  the fish and game folks are sort of admitting that there is a predator problem.  I think a bounty program is called for.

[Rex in OTZ]

I live in Unit 23 we have good supply of game in thanks to close workings of both Native group reps and the different Govt State/Fed agencies, WACH (Western Area Caribou Herd) population number's are down the last the three years but sustainable.
Moose are regulated to sustain the population, we have moose right out side the Town of OTZ and 40 years ago ther went in the area, have rabbits running all over the yards and streets (hard on gardens), Muskox numbers are on the rise from the last count.
As with most Federal Regulations they set a base line as a rule they cannot be more stringent than state regulations thats there purpose, when you break out the regs and compare side by side the State Regs are more stringent as they should be to more finely attune the regs to a particular region,The Feds and State useally butt heads on keeping in agreement on fluctuating numbers due to disease, bad weather, you can make some the people happy some the time but not all, they have a tough job of manageing Public lands, they are heald accountable, some land managers will play the dangerous game of loosening ther regulation and allow more useage, some managers are uncomfortable playing this and stick to conservative regulations abosolving them of makeing a decision that gets bad press, depending of the branch of Government each parcil some refuges are administerd by different managers all with different ideals, seems Park Service useally is allot more conservitive in the rcontrol than other branches, thers allot of Public Land and for some reason Im divided on ther having so much on one hand its unfair they have so much then on another Im happy that its out of commercial hands eager to flush natural resources to earn a dollar (plainly evident in Iowa and Nebraska with ditch to ditch farming), but where else in the USA are you going to see untouched land (no roads & powewr lines)and river's with banks clear of rich peoples vacation cabins?
I was paruseing the current issue of the Subsistence Management Regulations for the Harvest of Wildlife on Federal Public Lancs in Alaska check online (http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/home.html)
this covers The U.S.F.W.S, BLM, Forrest Service, NPS, BIA
The hunting in my area is more restricted by the Native Corp on there lands and associated allotments than on Fed & State lands.
What do they have to say at the Alaska Board of Game meeting for your area?
Subsistance users would have been up in arms if populations were nonexistant.
Maybe your game migrated here?

[Sourdough]

No the areas I am talking about are BLM land.  North of Fairbanks.

We are upset about USF&W closing the season on wolves in Yukon Charley, where they do not have the right to.  That is clearly a State function to regulate the season there.  USF&W said they don't care they are going to close it anyway, Fed Rules trump State.  This is a dangerous precidence.

[Rex in OTZ]

You mention Yukon - Charlie which I think you are refurring to is Yukon - Charlie Rivers National Preserve just east and tad north of FAI?, according to my Federal Subsistance handbook that is a National Park Service administerd preserve according to the lite purple color outlined on the map, they show a 'National Preserve' as opposed to a 'National Refuge' has different set of rules, its ok for guys hunting wolves on a Refuge, As far as I knew they dident allow hunting on Federal Preserve, but it dosent show the shaded areas of Special management & Controlled use areas.
Lax enforcement in the past, new management sat down and read the manual, & learned what was expected of them and found that hunting was takeing place in a No Hunting area and stopped it? I figure the Parks bring in administrators from down states and they useally have a tite hold on the lands they are responseable for,they do kinda do things heavy handed, they act at times with little input from the locals, I see this more with NPS than with USFWS, The BLM is a lite touch, useally having the state game enforcement officer ride herd on BLM lands in GMU23 during hunting season, NPS is more restrictive, FWS has enforcemnt folk but they just want people to play by the rules.
The BLM offices are right in Fairbanks (Federal Building) mabe stop by & look em up, and introduce yourself, find out what is going on with the game animals to the North of town.

[thxmrgarand]

This is an election year.  The state is willing to push back against excessive federal mandates and control but all of us need to let elected officials know about concerns.  If some people running for office seem to not care about your concerns then you need to volunteer in the campaign of their opponent.  There is much the state can do to make regulating Alaskans difficult for federal bureaucrats and right now is a great time to work on that.

[Dand]

I think the Yukon Charlie issue has to do with ADFG blasting a couple wolves the Fed had collared but screwed up and didn't tell the State the right frequencies.  So now the Parkies are having a hissy fit and trying to flex their muscle. I think too the Parkies have been waiting for an excuse to assert more jurisdiction. I believe there is quite a battle going on in the back ground between agencies. Also the feds may take the view that their nation wide constituency is more likely to want wolf protection.

While I have no problem with carefully run predator control programs where needed, I don't support the bounty idea or that the whole state can support vast numbers of game indefinitely.  Take down too many predators and the game will eat themselves out of house and home. That's part of the problem the Mulchatna herd ran into. The herd got too big, started getting hoof rot and other problems. I think the North Alaska Peninsula herd overgrazed their habitat for quite a while too. But then wolves moved in, learned to eat salmon as well as 'bou and now need thinning. I think the land and shoot program may have kept a fairly good balance in some areas.

[Rex in OTZ]

Feds and State havent always had a smooth record of cooperation.
You get some big egos in the same room, tempers flare, bad things happen to good places.
From what Ive seen the average Fed is Administrative or field people doing whatever studies they have going on, they wear uniforms and are useally nice folks, especially BLM haven met one yet that I dident like as a person and USFWS Fisheries bio tec's seem to be a really good bunch of Folk.

On the other hand a small percentage of them are Federal Law Enforcement they train side by side with FBI and BATF they all learn to be a cold fish.
Most the Law enforcement guys Ive met seem to be cut from the same cloth and always on the prod looking for the next big bust, during fall Hunting season the nasty ones dont wear a uniform they look just like the guy next door flying a supercub or boat...........scarey.
GMU23 Fed's stick to Fed lands where they have jurisdiction, the only exception would be Law enforcement enforceing the marine mammles act or endangers spiecices act, LE can come knocking and make ones life very uncomfortable.
The Point Hope Caribou Mass shooting was mostly a State of Alaska issue.
Spring waterfowl the Fed's enforce on Fed lands, State everywhere else.
There is both a State and Fed Duck Stamp but you only need a state hunting licence.
Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA) of 1980 pretty much changed the map of Public lands in Alaska for all time, unless Congress changes that were stuck or blessed depending on your view with what we have, we have a whole basket of lemons might as well make lemonade.

There is a system of dealing with issues and the government, we have to choose to use them, otherwise its falling on deaf ears.


 

[thxmrgarand]

I do not see any evidence whatsoever of actual management by the federal government - management of fish and game that is.  The feds want to manage us as if we were subjects.  I do not hear of feds managing or even measuring escapement of anadromous fish.  I do not see any evidence of feds looking at the habitat and determining the populations of game animals it can carry.

The feds are only interested in telling "urban" Alaskans what they cannot do and telling "white" Alaskans what they can do.  They believe that is management.

As I said earlier, there is much the state can do to make the feds job more difficult.  We need to tell people running for office that we are tired of the feds being absentee landlords.  What does Obama know about fish and game? 

[Dand]

Out here in Bristol Bay the Feds DO fish research and have or do run / fund anadromous fish assessment projects. Some jointly with the State. The Togiak Refuge wildlife staff and State wildlife staff work pretty close on some moose and caribou enumeration and other studies, collaring, tracking etc. There really is a good relation there.  On the east side of Bristol Bay, the State and Feds try to coordinate moose surveys and may actually get together on a wolf reduction program - MAYBE. Some of the moose and caribou surveys conducted by the State in the upper Nushagak are at least partially funded by BLM.  So some places there IS coordination and management and research. But there have been squabbles and will be in the future. I have heard that Yukon Charlie area the feds and State aren't on such happy terms.

But for those folks who insist that fish and wildlife agencies should manage the animals and not the humans, I am always baffled as to just what that would look like. If people (usually more demand than is supportable) weren't trying to take the fish and game, there would be no need for managing the wildlife. While predator control may be needed in some places, and controlled burns might be used in some cases, just what else is a biologist supposed to manage in a total wilderness situation?  Its not like in widely farmed/ranched country where habitat & feed could be expanded or manipulated. Hatcheries might work where fish are depleted and where folks are happy with put and take fishing - but the cost more than they produce in many cases. In Bristol Bay, one of the big draws are the wild, natural production fish. So one of the management plans specifically proscribes hatcheries or any non-natural fish production.

[thxmrgarand]

It's necessary to manage the harvest of any population of course.  But the feds don't do that; instead they decide that people who claim to be on one race or the spouse of one race can harvest without limit.  Everyone else is in the back of the bus.

Also, the Alaska Constitution requires management for maximum yield (as well as for all instead of for any one group).  The US Constitution probably also requires that all Americans are equal but over the past 50 years or so the Supreme Court has found ways to put a political spin on that.

I am skeptical that the feds actually use scientific management of any fish and game in Alaska.  The feds are not our friends.  We need to tell Washington that they do us no favors in having the feds here and the money of US taxpayers is being wasted.  Over half of all US Dept. of Interior employees work in Alaska!  The TSA is the largest employer in two Alaska towns, and the largest except for the school system and the hospital in one of the larger Alaska towns (large enough to be called a city).

[Rex in OTZ]

I know there is a Federal Subsistance Management Board.
Federal Subsistance Regional Advisory Councils
The Alaska Board of Game
In my area the Western Arctic Caribou Herd  working group holds meetings a few times a year.
Locals includeing the native representitives, Feds and State all amply represented in all those groups.
Ive been able to sit in on some them, there's times feelings run high and tempers flare, but for the most part they meet and discuss issues that we feel important for our region (GMU23)
Our area has bag limit for out of state sport hunters they get one caribou, subsistance its 15 a day.
if you read the regulations they state bag limits with annotated restrictions in specified areas where populations are low.
I know that Sheep in GMU23  they specificly state that Federal public lands are closed to the takeing of sheep except by Federally qualified subsistance users, 1 sheep by Federal registration permit,  hunting under these regulations a total allowable harvest of 21 sheep, 15 may be rams, 6 may be ewes.
Sounds like they have a pretty good grasp of what thay have and can allow to be hunted.
word for word right out the manual.

I thought there was a snit last summer about restricted salmon take over on the Kuskokwim river drainage due to low salmon returns the restriction was to boost numbers of spawning fish in hopes of boosting returns.

[Sourdough]

Yukon Charley is an area where the State has Jurisdiction over hunting and trapping.  The USF&W service has came out and decided to close wolf hunting and trapping in the area.  They deon't have that authority, that is a state issue.  Then the NPS came out with a decission to ban the use of flash lights for denning.  They don't even know what denning is or who is doing it.  They admitted that in a recent meeting with Denby Loyd.  Young native men are the ones doing the denning.  Now would you like to crawl into a den with no light?  Again the NPS does not have the authority to change "Methods and Means" to state hunting regulations.

The USF&W abd the NPS are flexing their muscles and seeing how far they can push the state.

Now as for preditor control, and wildlife management.  It is our duty to manage the wildlife numbers to a sustaniable number to permitt the maximum benifit for the Alaska People.  Meaning the maximum numbers that the land and conditions will safely support.  Say if the number of Caribou get too high they need to be trimmed down.  If they get too low they need to be raised.  Here is a problem the Feds can not understand.  When preditor number get too high and the pray (Caribou) get too low the only way to raise prey number is to lower the numbers of preditors.  If preditors numbers are not lowered the pray numbers will never rebound.  This is the problem with the Yukon Charley area.  Alaska is under an obligation with a treaty with Canada to raise the number of Caribou in the 40 mile herd, since that is an International herd.  Canada has lowered their numbers of preditors, but Alaska is still way too high on the preditor numbers and the herd is not growing fast enough to satisfy Canada.  Another thing the Fed Biologist can not understand is the sudden drop in Wolf numbers this spring, over what was there last fall.  What they can not get through their minds is that the Wolves follow the Caribou.  In the spring the wolves are on the flats where the Caribou are calving.  Next fall when the Caribou return during their migration the wolves will be back.

[Rex in OTZ]

Just saw on the local yahoo news
www.adn.com/2011/04/05/1794586/trial-opens-for-man-charged-in.html#

www.adn.com/2011/11/28/1577415/eagle-residents-object-to-park.html#

[Dand]

I've been checking the Alaska Dispatch and Fairbanks News Miner too.  AK Dispatch is a little sensational but this case is goofy too. I used to interview sport fishermen in their boats - sometimes 100 in a day. There is no call for the NPS behavior -those boys have real poor judgement on how to do their work.  I'd sure like to know how they justified cuffing that other guy for 2 hrs because he refused to talk to them - that's outrageous! I don't think any State Trooper would be allowed to behave like that - all I know wouldn't do that.  Troopers did a safety check on me last fall but they just dropped by my camp when I was eating so they wouldn't interfere with my hunt.

I sure hope the judge declares the NPS was outside their authority and that the Yukon is State water. They certainly were when they were cruising around in Canada!
Their boss ought to be reaming those guys for this stuff.