CONTROVERSIES & COMPROMISES

[williamlayton]

I am in a strange mood this AM.
I have been thinking about all of these topics we love/hate.
In another thread here one poster said "Guns are not what they used to be."
I read about folks wanting a perfect gun.
I read about gun cost being excessive.
I read about sloppy function in gus--complaints.
People want a good gun cheap, not just good but darn near perfect--cheap.

You can't have it both ways. Well, you can get lucky so I guess that is a little misleading.
Folks complain about loss of jobs and complain about some folks making a decent living, in the same breath.

Folks, a machinest is a skilled job, a Gunsmith worth his salt is a skilled person.
Yes you can stamp out gun parts, frames and parts, slap them together and some will work. Some will have burr's and imperfection. There may be machining marks left behind. BUT, you can put it together fairly cheaply.
You can purchase one from overseas which are put together and made with less expensive labor and parts.
You can even get one which functions real good--if you are lucky.
I guess I am complaining about folks on beer budgets wanting champaine.
There is no free lunch. There is no perfect cheap gun. There is no way you can have your cake and eat it too.
Let's get on with life.
Blessings

[1sourdough]

 Most are looking for that 'undiscovered' low cost great deal. A Savage 110 for $250 will usually sell quicker than that Sako for $1000, both will probably do fine. Many factors continue to rise the cost of manufacturing in the USA. There are only a few dots to connect as you watch the jobs go overseas or to Mexico.

[Hairtrigger]

It always amazes me the people that are too cheep to pay for quality and what they will trust to use as a ccw. I hear them say " I have had no issues with..." and in reality they have not shot the gun much at all

[ButlerFord45]

William, sounds like you need another cup of coffee.  Ya gotta admit, every once in a while, someone stops by to rub it in that they just found an unissued 1911A1 in their Grandfathers closet, you know, the one right there by his pristine M1D Garrand.  Since the oldest son didn't care for guns let him have them both for $15.00.  I can't argue with your reasoning.  I know that the machinist has kids that need to go to colledge but sometimes it feels like I'm paying for an entire semester in this one job. 
Do you really believe that the skills of the worker on the assembly line at GM is really worth $75.00 plus an hour?  I don't.  I believe that this is why they are broke and doing the "Borrow from Peter to Pay Paul" dance.
I have no problem or complaints in paying a skilled craftsman that takes pride in the work he does a worthy wage.
A good gun cheap?  It happens in my dreams!    I don't however see a problem with someone wanting their new pistola to function with out having to have it rebuilt by some professional that has made his living fixing factory new guns.
I do agree with you that sometimes it seems that folks want something for nothing but much like Obama and his crew, the country is leaning toward "I'll do and say anything I want because there is nothing you can do about it besides take it or leave it.  Just like this cheep-azz computer that I'm using now that won't let me see any more of what I'm typing.     So I am just going to hush for a little while.

BF

I am in a strange mood this AM.
I have been thinking about all of these topics we love/hate.
In another thread here one poster said "Guns are not what they used to be."
I read about folks wanting a perfect gun.
I read about gun cost being excessive.
I read about sloppy function in gus--complaints.
People want a good gun cheap, not just good but darn near perfect--cheap.

You can't have it both ways. Well, you can get lucky so I guess that is a little misleading.
Folks complain about loss of jobs and complain about some folks making a decent living, in the same breath.

Folks, a machinest is a skilled job, a Gunsmith worth his salt is a skilled person.
Yes you can stamp out gun parts, frames and parts, slap them together and some will work. Some will have burr's and imperfection. There may be machining marks left behind. BUT, you can put it together fairly cheaply.
You can purchase one from overseas which are put together and made with less expensive labor and parts.
You can even get one which functions real good--if you are lucky.
I guess I am complaining about folks on beer budgets wanting champaine.
There is no free lunch. There is no perfect cheap gun. There is no way you can have your cake and eat it too.
Let's get on with life.
Blessings
[/quote

[Hodr]

William it is about choices.
There are few Olympic grade athletes and those that exist have chosen a path that generally subrogates everything else to thier competition.  Paying an inflated price for a firearm is much the same.  I cannot forsee the need to be the fastest man in the world, I can forsee the need to be able to run if I have to.  I cannot forsee the need to buy a firearm for any reason other than function.  It would be alright to be the owner of the rarest most expensive handgun in the world with absolutely perfect provenance of manufactuer and ownership, but in my opinion it is just as alright to have an old and battered but working model of the same gun as long as it was reliable.  My definiton of a good gun hinges on it working when I need it.  If I don't forsee using it a lot it does not need to pass the requirements of a professional, second I don't collect and at my age I am starting to consolidate, simplify, and give things away.  I can find simple functional firearms that meet all my needs at a price I can afford.
I do make a great cup of coffee and my wife makes great choclate chip cookies.  If you ever float out this way I can offer you both, but I am one of those guys has no need of Starbucks and decorations in a cup.  For me these are the good old days and I am satisfied.

blindhari

[mcwoodduck]

William,
When ever I read your header I always think the topic is going to be about something else.
I thought this was going to be about major caliber Vs. small conceelable gun.
as usual you suprise me.
this one really spun me up after reading it.
All of economics are based on precieved value and people trying to build the better mouse trap or one that works as well for cheaper or one that works 80% as well for 40% of the price.  Everything you choose to buy is a comprimise.  Either by the maker or supplier or by you.
The first law of economics is "willing and able"  I may be willing to buy a million dollar sports car, but I am not able to.  Others are able to but may not be willing to and wish to use their $ for other ojects or adventures.  The economy works off of people wanting an items and others willing and able to produce the ends of the spectrum as well as the middle.  Prices will reflect the elaborate materials, uniqueness of the design, the reliability factor or other feature that may be key to making people want the item.
One of your sentances is what really got me fired up and the that is:

Folks complain about loss of jobs and complain about some folks making a decent living, in the same breath.

I think some of this is what is wrong with the country right now.  Other people telling what they think you should make, what they think is a lot, or what you should be allowed to eat.  The first amendment is the right of everyone to say what they think with out being punnished for your ideas.  It is not a platform for you to be heard!  After all even though we voted for it it does not make it right.  Democracy should not always rule.  There should be limits on what is acceptable and what is not.  What someone should or should not make for their labor or what they should not charge for their services.  Don't get me wrong shop around and get your best deal but be buyer beware.
Handgun Control Inc is a perfect example.  these morons have spend millions and millions lobbying to get handguns outlawed.  In the late 80's Colt and a few other handgun companies were on the ropes financially.  Why didn't HCI use their Millions and Milloins to buy Colt and just close it?  Hate the product spend your money to buy and close the factory or buy up all the used guns and destroy them.  Do not inflict your worped sense of what others should do cause you think it would be a good idea.
If more people were allowed to use thier money the way they wanted and we had less people butting in telling you what you should do with your money and how it should be spent we would have more people with money in thier pockets due to great idea backed by capital being produced, sold, and made providing jobs, products and choices for more people at lower costs.   Also the financial problems we have been havinf is based on your investment being secure.  You can not loose you investment only the profit you would have made makes people lazy and willing to take greater and greater risks.  If you went ot Vegas and knew the $1 slot machins could only pay off and not take your $ you would be willing to bet bigger and bigger amounts only looking for a payoff.  Same thing we have had on Wall Street.  For qa reward there needs to be a risk.  If you were ale to loose all of your savings in your 401K, social Security, or other financial vehicle you would wantto know more about the stocks you are invested in, what the government is doing with your tax $, and how the stock market actually works.  But since there is very little risk no one cares and people like Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, Madoff, and Ponzi are able to take advantage of the uninformed by trying to pit one group against another or by just stealing from them.

[williamlayton]

Well now--and I don't want any glory for stirring the pot--but it seems that the topic caused some amount of thinking too occur.
Good responses.
Which comes first--the chicken or the egg?
$75 AN HOUR does catch the attention. did the 75 occur before or after inflation? You can argue that till the cows come home, however; it is also a fact that different parts of the country/world seem to dictate a living wage.
I defy one to live and prosper on $15 and hour in Boston, New York or LA--some other towns come too mind also---but others in, other locals would do fairly well.
Now skill is another thing--I am still unsure what skill is, because almost everbody I know--which includes ALL of you folks--ceptin me  --screws up sometimes. I eliminated me because i have only made one mistake in my life--that was in 19 and 54--and I thought I was wrong but found out later I was right ( , if this little symbol is necessary to let you know i'm just joshin).
I digress. The pont is, just puttin pieces together requires skill, but, not the same skill as fittin them.
Now, and BF, I am runnin out of room too read what I am typing, so you will excuse me if'n It kinda gets screwed u after this. I digress again.
All weapons are made of pieces. There a pieces, good pieces and better pieces. The maker, generally, buys pieces made to certain specs he desires. Some boys spec out better pieces. Some boys want even better pieces--and fitted more properly.
All of them come with the possibility of working or failing. You may get lucky or un-lucky at any level-----I guess you could say that you could win a Le Manes with a stock Porsche---which one are you going too place money on?
Now--why gripe about cost, when you can't afford the best, but demand it in a $300 gun.
Rant is not over--but I DO needanother cup of coffee.
Blessings     

[Brett]

I know what it is you are saying William,  but I expect my $22,000 dollar PT Cruiser to get my wife to work and to the grocery store just as reliably as a $38,000 Cadillac CTS.   Do I expect the same level of comfort, the same level of fit and finish, or the same level of aesthetics from the PT as the Cadillac?   Of course not. 

The same goes for my $300 Kel-tec P-11.  I expect it to function perfectly and do the job if/when it is called on just as well as a $10,000 Custom Shop Browning Hi-power.  What is wrong with expecting a new product to function as it was intended regardless of it's cost?  If a manufacturer cannot make a reliable and usable self defense arm at the $300 price point then maybe they need to put a in little more effort or better materials into it and maybe sell it at the $400 price point.  But please don't be a gun snob and tell us you have to spend at least X dollars or own such and such gun because "only the best will do" cause it ain't so cous'. 

[WD45]

I understand what you are saying William and we've all been guilty to point I would say. This subject can be applied to many things not just guns. Tools come to mind. How many people buy cheap wally world wrenches and expect them to perform like a good set of Snap on or SK then get mad when they dont. It's the mind set itself I am talking about. People dont want to pay for quality anything. ALL they see is price with no real reguard to the quality of the product or work being performed. My own experience as a wood worker with people that wanted me to build or make them something and then freak out when you quote them a price was a real eye opener to the way people in general think. While some times it is true you may be paying a lot more because of the name on the product it also holds true more often than not that you get what you pay for. It does jerk my chain big time though when a company that touts the high quality of its products and that quality is not there. The biggest difference here is that people are trusting their life to a gun!!!!

[coyotejoe]

Actually, I find it surprising that guns are as cheap as they are today. It's true that once upon a time one could buy a brand new Colt SAA for eighteen bucks. We look at that and say "wow, today's prices are out of sight".  Yes, but when that Colt sold for 18 bucks a laborer worked dawn to dark for fifty cents a day. So that Colt represented 36 day's wages and remember one had to live on that 50 cents while saving up to buy that new Colt. So, looking at it that way, a thousand for a new Colt is cheap and four hundred for a Ruger Blackhawk is dirt cheap, two hundred for a new Kel-Tec is ridiculously cheap.
  I have to hand it to firms like Ruger and especially Kel-Tec for reducing cost by improved design and manufacturing while still producing a functional firearm.
 We live in a glorious age when even the underpaid working stiff can afford to own numerous firearms. During the great depression years and up till the end of WW-ll my dad could hardly afford shotgun shells to hunt with, never mind a closet full of guns he didn't absolutely need.

[ButlerFord45]

Ok, Willum', I got one for ya.  Since it's on me, I can tell it.  1 week ago today, I called Springfield with a problem.  Customer service was a really sweet sounding young lady that was asking all the normal questions: different ammo, different mags, and so on.  It didn't really matter that the problem is with an empty gun with no mag, I just liked talking with her  , she kept appologizing for the problem and I let her, though I did tell her once that it wasn't necessary.  Now she may have been as short, fat, ugly and ill tempered as my first mother-in-law but she sure sounded sweet on the phone.  I digress, sorry, anyway, I had a prepaid shipping label in less than an hour and the pistol was in FedEx's paws the next day and in Genesco on Thursday.  The point of my tale: I know that the sweet thang told me 2-4 weeks turn-around time but I started yesterday checking my e-mail to see if they were finished with it yet.   

How's that for the want of instant gratification!??

BF

[ButlerFord45]

William,  I don't know there my mind is the last couple of days.    There is no reason that the perfect weapon can't be had on the cheap!   How many times have you heard, right here on this very forum, of the many Norincos and RIA's that right out of the box never fail and consistantly hit soda cans(2.5") at 100 yards off hand?  Bill Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown, et al make a big deal and ask astronomical prices for the pistols that only shoot 1" at 25 yds?
So see, you CAN have cake and eat it too!

BF

[BBF]

I can think of at least two cheap and very good rifles in the past. Rem 788 and their 600 models. Today we have the Stevens 200. Not pretty for sure but the function and shoot well/

[williamlayton]

This is fun.
Snob--well I guess I am because I wan things that work, from lawn mowers to cars---but I am willing to pay the price to get it----OR---I don't get it.
BF--sounds like you had a little soft porn phone experience. Good for the heart rate  .
I hate folks that live on reputation without providing good product. Colt did that for a number of years and it dang near ruined that reputation.
I am not saying you CANNOT find a less expensive gun that is reliable---I am even saying that if you want a build-up a cheap old used gun may be the best choice.
Rarely do I buy a new gun. Generally, like the last two Colts, I buy used and build on that frame and slide. I call it recycling--call me a green persons--. My old Norinco beater was anothers reject, It may have functioned for years--who knows. I dib't like some things on it and spent some more money and now that old beater looks like a new stud--acts like one also.
For safety, spend some money, if you can't do it yourownself--which is the cheapest--and hire it done.

BF---heard you told some folks where too get off at the poles----way to go.
Brett-- I am going to trust my new Mustang on a road trip in June---least, I didn't buy the Mercedes--but they were fun too look at and sit in---loaded, $85,000, Drop Top Hard Top--that was a looker I tell you.
Blessings

[Brett]

This is fun.
Snob--well I guess I am because I wan things that work, from lawn mowers to cars---but I am willing to pay the price to get it----OR---I don't get it.

I would rather have the security of an inexpensive weapon than no weapon at all myself.  Just like I would rather drive an old Dodge than walk every where I go.

Brett-- I am going to trust my new Mustang on a road trip in June---least, I didn't buy the Mercedes--but they were fun too look at and sit in---loaded, $85,000, Drop Top Hard Top--that was a looker I tell you.
Blessings

Enjoy your road trip William.  Wish we could all afford that Mercedes.  $85,000 is only $10,000 less than I payed for my house and two acres of land. 

[williamlayton]

Brett
I used too be able to hit a 1 Iron. That is in todays thinking though. 
The point that I was making--based on the discussion--was that it is better too have 1 good than 3 suspects.
Now a suspect may/can/has the possibility of doing the job.
So a person buys only suspects, spends $3000 on them--can only shoot one at a time. Why a suspect and not a good one? One good one will cost less than $3000.
Now, we are creatures of desire. We want volumn because volumn satisfies by volumn and not quality.
I suggest that volumn of fine will satify--maybe for only a day or two, til the desire ressurects its ugly head--better than volumn of suspects.
The question never dies, does it.
Blessings

[Lloyd Smale]

ruger buyers are the worse. they pick up say a super blackhawk or a model 77 for 500 bucks and think it should be fit and finished as well as a 2000 dollar custom and bitch relentlously when it isnt.

[ButlerFord45]

Found out yesterday that on May 13 ( the day my pistol was delivered and signed for), Springfield Armory was flooded with 2' of water.  On another forum there was much discussion and hopes for well being and that they would soon be answering phones an emails again.  One poster reminded everyone to the concerns of well being for the people and area being flooded.  Followed immediatly by (obviously tounge-in-cheek but...) "Maybe the flooding is just in their homes and the shop and its contents are ok!"  I found this bit o' wit spew-funny and for some reason thought of this thread??

[PKnTX]

So a person buys only suspects, spends $3000 on them--can only shoot one at a time. Why a suspect and not a good one? One good one will cost less than $3000.

Having never been able to justify spending the $$ needed to buy only "the best"
but at the same time never being able to justify spending any $ on something
that won't do the job, the mindset above is about as close to my MO mentioned.
Why would I "need" a collection of overlapping tools?  Don't get me wrong, if a
person is a collector, then a collection will be had and there ain't nothing wrong with that.
The contents of my safe is, I've been convinced by reading here and other forums, utilitarian
if not down right spartan.
1 centerfire rifle
1 rimfire rifle
1 handgun
Shotguns, well, that's a different catagory.  Ain't it?

Not a one of these would be considered "top of the line" by anyone
but at the same time, not a one of them is anything but EFFECTIVE
in its purpose and RELIABLE in its function. 

[PKnTX]

Guess I got off track with the rifle and shotgun typing as this is the handgun forum.
My 1 handgun (until further need arises) decision came down to reliability/durability,
fit to my hand, stopping power (for lack of a better term), cost of feeding the thing
and then cost of purchase.   SP101 fit the bill best IMO.  And for the record,
no complaints about fit or finish here.  It does what it was meant to do. 

[williamlayton]

PK
Shotguns count.
BF
The last three purchases have been used--and refurbished. I am green.
You folks are right--you only need one good one, well, er, you folkdo but I am the exception--I need so many because I am a poor shot---if you won't buy that, how about, I want them to have a choice of which they want too be shot with 
Actually---I am just a gunnut.
Blessings

[buck460XVR]

Regardless of my preferences, I don't trash other folks' choices in guns...or spouses...or motorcycles...or bird dogs. They have their reasons for their choices and I have mine. If it makes you happy, why should I care? Altho I prefer quality in a firearm, I generally don't feel the need to buy the most expensive model out there. Most of the moderately priced guns do me just fine. I don't have a Les Baer, cause my Colt works just fine. I don't own a Korth, cause my Smiths are more accurate than I am anyway. For some, only the best will do. Some actually need the best and have enough skill to realize their potential, while most just need to brag about them. Kinda like the guy that convinces his wife he really needs  a $3000 table saw and his biggest project so far has been a coupla bird houses. 

[teamnelson]

Like buck mentioned about tools got me thinking about those fellas that have to have snap-on everything. If they are a professional mechanic, that makes sense. Me, my Stanley Phillips turns a screw just like a Craftsman ... I'm not a mechanic. Anybody really shooting so often that they could say they are "mechanic" level shooters? I'm a "weekend handyman" level shooter, with occaisional moments of "major project" shooting like IHMSA or IPSC/ICORE shooting.

For range plinking/hiking/GP handyman shooting, my Tauruses (or Tauri?) have never let me down, from the 66 6" .357 that'll put 'em all in a pig at hunting ranges standing with iron sights, to the 1911a1, to the 606 snubbie, to the 94 .22 I can carry in my back pocket and feel pretty well defended against snakes. But I know a lot of fellas here would sooner their daughter dance on a pole than own a Taurus. Unless you're using a mechanical rest, and firing thousands of rounds a week, there's no practical difference between a functioning Taurus or a functioning Smith in my experience. Average Joe should spend the difference on ammo.

But for those occaisional major project events, I have some high dollar Smiths, and a tweaked Contender.

[williamlayton]

What we express here are opinions.
Your right BUCK, well about that careing thing.
I get a little carried away, I think, but, I don't expect another to follow my path.
I started out adulthood trying to find the best deals and least expensive way of going. I still like good deals but came too the realization that I was angered at the results of most cheap things.
I used to buy cheap hand tools and found that when I needed them most they just did not perform.
I use what I buy--use them--and expect that they perform without breaking, failing too start, becoming ineffective after a short periond of time.
Lawn mowers/lawn equipement are at the top of my pet peeves.
Back in the early 80's I bought a Colt Mustang--some may recall my oft repeated remarks about this weapon--it was the most useless gun i have ever owned. Today--I would just take it too a Smith and get it fixed, once and forever.
Therefore; I am a proponent of Smiths and think that a Taurus or Norinco has the potental of being good.
There are still brand names I prefer over others because I think the basics are better, but I like them tweaked.
Blessings