the FBI 20mm guns

[jamaldog87]

The FBI is going Purchase The Anzio Mag-Fed 20mm Rifle for use. I would not want to know what they need that for. Maybe for somali pirates?

[dukkillr]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the FBI would be the ones fighting pirates.

[jamaldog87]

it makes you think "who" they are going to fight with that. i beleve the story i was reading about it the guns are in 20 × 102 mm(Vulcan) and the ammo comes in  High Explosive (HE) ,High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) ,Armour Piercing (AP) ,Armour Piercing Incendiary (API)  and Discarding Sabot Armour Piercing or proper APDS. I don't know "who" in the USA that you would need that kind of ammo for.

the Description for some of them is as follows. 
M53 API  ,Bursting charge 4.2 g incendiary, Muzzle Velocity [m/s] 1030, Description: 6.3 mm RHA penetration at 0 degree impact angle and 1000 m range.


M56A3/A4 HEI  Projectile Weight102 ,Muzzle Velocity 1030 , Description: Nose fuzed round, no tracer. 2 m effective radius to produce casualties to exposed personnel.Fragmentation hazard out to 20 m. 12.5 mm RHA penetration at 0 degree obliquity at 100m range.


SAPHEI,Multi-purpose fuzeless round with an incendiary charge in the nose setting off the HE behind it with a slight delay to maximize lethality against aircraft. No tracer or self-destruct. A zirconium pellet at the bottom of the HE cavity provides additional incendiary effect.

Are they going to war with someone?

[RB1235]

The FBI's role is federal law enforcement of the US and the property there of. If they are going to war with anyone it will be people in this country. They have no jurisdiction on foreign soil.

[mrussel]

The FBI's role is federal law enforcement of the US and the property there of. If they are going to war with anyone it will be people in this country. They have no jurisdiction on foreign soil.

 My guess is that they want it just in case they need it. It might also come in handy in drug interdiction. There have been cases of rouge Mexican army units escorting drug smugglers. I have not heard of them having anything but small arms,who who knows what they might have. It also occurs to me that one of those rounds was suggested for use against airliners. You can imagine putting some of those around high value targets,in case the F15s cant get there in time. It would have been great to have a few of those around the pentagon on 9-11 wouldn't it? Im sure there are dozens of other legitimate,if unlikely uses for such a thing.

[Hodr]

I live in Az and was traveling main hwy between Phoenix and Tucson when I saw an unusual occurence.  Two big white vans unloading about 75yds off the main road.  Out come 4 guys who pulled out a sawhorse style 3' high pipe frame with two pintle mounts.  They locked on a couple of browning 50 cal with what appeared to be a connecting cross bar, sort of like an antiaircraft setup.  Turned out that was the day two sets of drug runners had a running battle up the highway and this was Border Patrol waiting to greet cartel backup.  Talked to a relative in border patrol and he said that they had a rumor earlier that year some of the cartels wanted to ram border stations with semi style trucks.  He said it was alright with him they were hardening  thier vulnerable sights and until finished were backing them up with Navy type 20 mm double cannon.  It is intresting to know that if they had caught the guys who were shooting on the main hwy, California, Obama, and the mayor of New York think it would have been an intolerable imposition to ask them where they came from.
The things I have actually seen sometimes exceed even my imagination.  Now you can understand a use for 20mm cannon in stateside defense.  Disney called it the living desert but if you live here you know it is sometimes a killing field.

blindhari

[mrussel]

I live in Az and was traveling main hwy between Phoenix and Tucson when I saw an unusual occurence.  Two big white vans unloading about 75yds off the main road.  Out come 4 guys who pulled out a sawhorse style 3' high pipe frame with two pintle mounts.  They locked on a couple of browning 50 cal with what appeared to be a connecting cross bar, sort of like an antiaircraft setup.  Turned out that was the day two sets of drug runners had a running battle up the highway and this was Border Patrol waiting to greet cartel backup.  Talked to a relative in border patrol and he said that they had a rumor earlier that year some of the cartels wanted to ram border stations with semi style trucks.  He said it was alright with him they were hardening  thier vulnerable sights and until finished were backing them up with Navy type 20 mm double cannon.  It is intresting to know that if they had caught the guys who were shooting on the main hwy, California, Obama, and the mayor of New York think it would have been an intolerable imposition to ask them where they came from.
The things I have actually seen sometimes exceed even my imagination.  Now you can understand a use for 20mm cannon in stateside defense.  Disney called it the living desert but if you live here you know it is sometimes a killing field.

blindhari

 I saw a video once of some smugglers in a speed boat being interdicted by the coast guard. They decided it was a good idea to start shooting at the coasties them with automatic weapons. The coast guard opened up on them with a 20mm and their little speed boat just flew apart. It was pretty much one of the coolest things I have ever seen. Its not about comparable force. We dont want our guys in a fair or even fight. Its about overwhelming force. It needs to be understood,if think you can shoot it out with federal agents,the coast guard,or even the local PD,then you have just discovered the fastest and easiest way to get a free trip back to Mexico,zipped up in a plastic bag,in a particle board (a nice pine box is to good for these guys) shipping crate.
   There are people that suggest large scale deployment of the national guard along the border for drug interdiction. While it generally sounds like a good idea,there are issues that have to be ironed out. You need to make sure the units are trained for what they are doing. (For instance,back in the 60s,national guardsmen were used for riot control,but trained to fight a war. It didn't work out well. Now,there are people that ARE trained for riot control,and in general,it does work,or at least they properly achieve their objective,regardless of whether you agree with that objective) What occurs to me is that this is a perfect place to put many national guardsmen with minimal additional training. There are guardsmen who are trained in using much heavier weapons than LEOs have access to. So long as the guardsmen are made to understand that they CANNOT pull the trigger until the LEO in charge gives the order,then they could quickly be deployed to give the police the capability of significant extra firepower without massive extra training time and cost. (The reason for this of course is that the guardsmen are not trained in law enforcement or drug interdiction,but the LEO or federal agents presumably are,but not trained in the use of the weapons. The operation of the weapons could therefore be left to the guardsmen,while the judgment of when to use them could be left to the LEOs)

[Mikey]

Leave it to the feds to go haywire on rumor.  C'mon guys, let's armor up and get some heavy weapons because we can't figure out how to use concrete and steele to stop cartel drug smugglers so we should blast them apart with armor piercing capabilities.  Get real people, armor piercing doesn't work work a dang on a semi unless you hit the engine block and disable the vehicle and you know the mex drug cartels are not al-quida so why the hell are we giving federal law enforcement high volume, armor piercing capability when road spikes and barriers work much better.  Is a there another WACO in the offing??  Are we going back to Ruby Ridge to see if a 20mm round can take out a backwoods cabin - geez, maybe this time horiuchi can use the 20mm to take both the mother and infant child with one shot. 

What the hell is the matter with you and those idiots that you feel the fbi or any other law enforcement organization should arm up and protect our borders?  The worst possible thing we can do to this country is to put camo clad feds or locals on the street corners to combat crime based on rumor.  Do camo clad cops running around with 20mm Vulcan cannons give you confidence?  It scares the hell out of me simply because there is no control over them - there is no one but you to stop them when they go beyond their authority and start killing the innocent and you don't have the Vulcan to match the firepower - you are already defeated.

Oh yeah, it is good to watch the CG take out a drug boat, esp if the boaters are stupid enough to fire on them but at least the CG and other branches of the military operate under rules of engagement, which go to cow poo in a heartbeat when civilian law enforcement is involved. 

In this state we have leos who raid the wrong houses, pull naked women from their beds, cuff'm and leave'm on the floor for every man who comes through the house to  look at while some armor clad squat cop trains his silenced 9mm sub-gun on a bunch of 4-7 y/o children who were having a sleep-over.  Did the cops apologize - naw, the chief of squats said his officers followed proceedure - wrong house a-hole and since when does proceedure mean putting 4-7 y/o children on teh ground with a submachine gun pointed at the backs of their heads - wadda they gonna do boy, cry on your boots.

If you like the thought of feds with 20 mm guns, then it sounds like you would rather be with them as a oppressor than with a citizenry hoping to hang on to its freedoms.  Make your choice.

[Hodr]

Mikey,
I can understand your concerns, but you seem to have an exaggerated view of what I said.  I talked of Border Patrol not street corner law enforcement, exposed and vulnerable INS, customs, and border patrol positions within short distance of border, that needed bunker type enhancement and couldn't get the funds needed for construction.  No one anywhere talked of Vulcan high fire rate gatling guns, instead I spoke of WWII excess pulled from warehousing.  I spoke of possible incursion by heavy truck loaded with explosives, How do you think the marines stop them?  Lastly, the relative I spoke of has been awarded two items of intrest that he took with him when he retired from INS/Border Patrol:  The highest award possible for rescuing illegals from a burning car car turned over down in San Diego, a contract from a drug cartel on him and his family that he has had to live with for over 20 years.  Rant all you want, this man has spent a lifetime in Navy or Border Patrol uniform and is required to be armed at all times for the rest of his life. He's the guy you see at airports who goes around security screening.  You see an overbearing federal cop, I see a guy who has served his country for over 40 years, and now trains the next generation.

blindhari

[jamaldog87]

The FBI has got better becuase of things like Ruby Ridge. They to me seem less gun ho they the Cops. I would fell safe with the  military or FBI with more firepower then the cops. When we had the shooting at my store the swat guy was running down the street with a MP5 PDW out and the barrel pointed all over the place with finger on the tirgger.  At least to me the federal (beside DOD or fema) they do a good job and i trust what they say and if they do a FUBAR at least they don't act like a SSED.  Local cops only to me need shotsguns,m4 or ar15, and there side arms.

[mcwoodduck]

The FBI was playing with a .70 or .75 sniper rifle back in the early 90's.
The idea was with suiside bombers to just take the whole head off.  Or hit the suiside belt and take out as much of the electical system as possible so the devise would not work.  Big bullets make big holes and could make a weapon / bomb/ or person useless
My friend in College, his father was an training officer at Quantico.
He showed us the case and bullet.
Huge bullet jacketed, real long, was about 300 grains and filled with a soft 3/8" or 1/2" plastic rod.  About 2.75 to 3.0 inches long projectile.
He said the impact was about like 375H&H but with the large bullet that spread out, did not carry far past a hit target.  Pretty much took the head off or turned it onto pulp and the bullet stopped with the head.  A 50 BMG round will go through the head, through the cinder block wall and through the room and any thing or body in the room.
If you look 20mm is .8 and if they are going to use the same case as the proposed XM -? 20mm rifle for the military they would have the option of using the distance gernades, the solid projectile, and the armor piercing rounds.
possile place for them to use them (minus all the Black helicopter round up all the gun owners, conservitives and anyone that disagrees with the left) is in the war on terror and the drug war.  When we have the Mexican Military attacking Border patrol officers and providing cover to get the drug mules across, serious fire power will be needed in investagating the attack.  The distance gernades gives the FBI the ability to set a distance on the rifle and shoot and take out groups, hiding in a stash house / bomb facotry or Mexican military, shooting at the US agents.  the same rifle can be used to stop large vehicles like trucks and armored cars with the AP as well as take out single people with a supper soft point.
Do I think it is over kill.  Yep.  But toys are toys and the way the government spends $, everyone wants the best and newest toys.
Much like the idea of having 10mm MP5's call the MP10 budgets will stop this but gun companies will continue to develop equipment and hand it to different groups to test to hopefully get it purchased.  This has been going on since Colt, Sharps, Winchester, and Remington would send samples to people in the government and military that could influence purchase of arms and equipment.  Many stories of the 1860's and similar stories of how we got the M-16 in the early 1960's.

[billy_56081]

If the feds are held to the same standards as we were in the army a 20mm is to be only used on equipment not directly on troops. I was on a vulcan in GW1 and the soldiers didn't fare well when you gave them a 30 round burst to the helmet or web belt. The 20mm HE rounds made it look like prarie dog shooting with ballistic tips.

[mrussel]

Leave it to the feds to go haywire on rumor.  C'mon guys, let's armor up and get some heavy weapons because we can't figure out how to use concrete and steele to stop cartel drug smugglers so we should blast them apart with armor piercing capabilities.  Get real people, armor piercing doesn't work work a dang on a semi unless you hit the engine block and disable the vehicle and you know the mex drug cartels are not al-quida so why the hell are we giving federal law enforcement high volume, armor piercing capability when road spikes and barriers work much better.  Is a there another WACO in the offing??  Are we going back to Ruby Ridge to see ifa 20mm round can take out a backwoods cabin - geez, maybe this time horiuchi can use the 20mm to take both the mother and infant child with one shot. 

 Make up your mind. Is a 20mm useless or does it make you a god vs someone who is not similarly armed. If its useless,then its not a matter of being concerened with them having it,its just a matter of wasting tax payers money that could be spent on more appropriate equipment. If it really DOES make you invincible vs someone who does not have one,then yea,they DEFINATLY should have them. Ill tell you this,armed drug smugglers (sometimes escorted by rouge Mexican army units) are a hell of a lot better armed than I am.

 Of course neither of those extremes are true,they neither are useless or make you god like. Ill tell you this though. The drug smugglers WILL try to shoot it out with the police or federal agents. They know if they can just make it back to Mexico they will be ok. If their weapons are not up to the job,they WILL get better ones,and they have the cash to spend on it. Our guys don't need similar weapons,or equivalent weapons,they need overwhelming weapons. I dont know why the feds think they need that kind of firepower,but I'm not going to second guess if they do.

 As for your argument,I say again,it just makes no sense and is self contradictory. If the weapons would be good for oppressing the American public,(if you really believe that's the only reason they want them,you might want get back on your meds and change your tinfoil hat,I think its letting the "crazy rays" in again) they would be just as good for dealing with drug smugglers.

[Lloyd Smale]

Only downside i see is that its not a 30mm! Believe me if the goverment wants to take control of you the fact the fbi has a couple of 20mms isnt going to make a bit of differnce. There sitting in wharehouses anyway along with lots of other high tech weapons that you wouldnt have a chance against with your ar15 and 12 guage shotguns! I say set them up on the borders and shoot everything that moves and let God sort em out!

[Hodr]

Just a note,
Have been in touch with Border patrol friend.  Gun used as backstop is US Naval type Oerlikon 20mm cannon firing around 300 rounds per minute.  Weapons pulled from US Naval storage and are WWII vintage with antitank type mounts.  These cannon are still in sevice around the world by various military, including ours.

blindhari

[Mikey]

Well, let's see.  During WWII the 20mm Oerlirkons wreaked absolute havoc with Japanese warships, so they should perform well enough on semi's and the like but if the border or that border area is so dang hot then why don't they have the military there to secure the border.  I s'pose obam and company would prefer living voters, albeit illegal, than not. 

blindhari:  your relative is not alone.  Many keep looking over their shoulders and for those of us who served in south and central America, obama's penchant for allowing open immigration gives us more than pause to wonder how far north the past will come. 

As for firepower - give me one well trained Infantry company, or even a poorly trained Infantry company (which I could fix) and I will show you firepower.  I have absolutely no problem with our military guarding our borders or securing our borders and even providing support for our Border Patrol but I am extremely leery of internal police forces, which the FBI is, with that level of firepower.  We aren't talking about the J Edgar Hoover and Melvin Purvis days of the Kansas City massacre when the FBI didn't carry guns, we talkin' now when States can deploy its National Guard to secure the border. 

liberals are concerned about the possible abuse of the proposed Arizona law.  I am as far from being liberal as anyone can imagine but I fear the abuse of overwhelming force at the hands of internal police forces.  As far as firepower is concerned - quad 50s anyone?

[mcwoodduck]

liberals are concerned about the possible abuse of the proposed Arizona law.  I am as far from being liberal as anyone can imagine but I fear the abuse of overwhelming force at the hands of internal police forces.  As far as firepower is concerned - quad 50s anyone?

What I do not get is the Liberals.
They are willing to allow certain cities to ignore laws as well as people (illegals) and say the laws are unjust.
But they want you to follow thier laws.
The way i see it if the cities, states and illegals are allowed to ignore multiple laws than I should be allowed to ignore laws I don't see as just.
Under the 14th amendment laws have to equally apply to all.  So if a non citizen is allowed to break 4-5 laws just being here and more for working, identity theft and more why do I have to follow laws I think are silly. (not ones that put people in danger as not stopping at stop signs but why do i have to pay for city parking meters, don't my taxes go to fund the streets?  I think 7% is more than enough for either state or federal taxes. What if we got the same number of citizens to stand up and say we don't think these laws are just and are going to ignore them, the same as you are ignoring the millions off people that are breaking dozens of laws.  Don't like the law change it don't ignore it.

[mrussel]

Well, let's see.  During WWII the 20mm Oerlirkons wreaked absolute havoc with Japanese warships, so they should perform well enough on semi's and the like but if the border or that border area is so dang hot then why don't they have the military there to secure the border.  I s'pose obam and company would prefer living voters, albeit illegal, than not. 

b

 Yea,if the president was doing his job,we would see articles in the paper not about the immigration laws in arizona,but about how 1500 national guard troops were just sent to the border.....

[jamaldog87]

 Yea,if the president was doing his job,we would see articles in the paper not about the immigration laws in arizona,but about how 1500 national guard troops were just sent to the border.....
[/quote]

they need to send them and lock it down. Not so much because of the illegals(then always has been and there are a   lot here) but becuase of the war zone in mexico. Everyday i see all the killings in mexico on T.V.  They have road side bombs, they are killing US consular employees and they kids, people heads are being cut off and bodys are being left on overpasses with signs on them.  mexico to me is the iraq of the south and the mexico gov. say we started this.

So i say turn it into the DMZ and let them kill each other down there. Law will not stop the killing only guns will.

[jamaldog87]

this is what i think of the south of the border http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw2nkoGLhrE

[mrussel]

 Yea,if the president was doing his job,we would see articles in the paper not about the immigration laws in arizona,but about how 1500 national guard troops were just sent to the border.....

they need to send them and lock it down. Not so much because of the illegals(then always has been and there are a   lot here) but becuase of the war zone in mexico. Everyday i see all the killings in mexico on T.V.  They have road side bombs, they are killing US consular employees and they kids, people heads are being cut off and bodys are being left on overpasses with signs on them.  mexico to me is the iraq of the south and the mexico gov. say we started this.

So i say turn it into the DMZ and let them kill each other down there. Law will not stop the killing only guns will.
[/quote]

That was actually sarcasm,because just earlier that day,I read an article that said 1500 national guardsmen are being deployed along the border. But I do agree with you that things are (have?) gotten out of hand down there. In fact,I saw they were getting (or had already) that way about 6 years ago when I read about how rouge Mexican army units had been escorting drug smugglers (with an interview with one of sheriffs that ran across some and been shot at by them).

 My feeling was and still is,get some guys down there in helicopters,deployed along the border prepared for fast responses to problems and get the lines of communication setup so that the local LEOs can call for some hardcore backup. If they find soldiers in Mexican army uniforms,don't stop chasing until they are captured or dead,and if Mexico doesn't like it us troops crossing their borders,tough luck,we can just say they were "Rouge national guard units". Another option might be to add some predator drones into the mix. Then you don't even have to chase,just fire the missile from the drone and watch the pieces fly. We have lots of gear that can shoot targets from miles and miles away from the air and never have to leave American airspace. Once we had people on the ground to get eyes on who these guys are and verify they are soldiers,the air power could be brought to bear and these guys would soon learn,its better NOT to be escorted by soldiers because they don't bring you extra protection,they just bring down a load of hurt on you. The long and the short of it is,a drug smuggler is a law enforcement matter. A drug smuggler with soldiers is a military matter and should be dealt with accordingly.

 We can instruct our ambasador to say "If you don't like us cluster bombing your solders when the try to flee back across the border after escorting drug dealers,get a better grip on your armed forces"

 Of course some might suggest that they would just stop wearing their uniforms so they are not identified as soldiers. Simple solution to that too. Soldiers in uniform,if handled as a military matter are POWs. (But can still be tried for war crimes,like shooting at civilians etc) Soldiers captured out of uniform are hung.