barrel length velocities

[woods]

 I've got a small rant about barrel length velocities is there a chart somewhere I can put in my barrel length and see the velocity. I have 3  different 44 mags one a conteder with a 14" barrel one a model 29 with an 6" and a super redhawk alaskan with a 2" barrel.  It really iritates me that the gun companies know velocity but don't ever do a posting of the velocities of different lengths. Yes I know buy a cronograph that is just one more expense that I really can't afford. Anybody have an opinion on this.

woods

[Autorim]

While I can appreciate your rant, there are simply too many variables to accurately post velocities per barrel length. I have an Oehler chronograph and sometimes I am surprised at results. You could expect to achieve higher velocities in the 14 inch bbl and higher velocities in the 6 inch as compared to the 2 inch.

The combination of bullet, powder, primer, bore diameter, cylinder throat and other factors can impact velocity dramatically. I recommend that you use the manuals as a general guide to stay out of trouble. If you want really accurate results, use a chronograph.

Ken

[HAMMERHEAD]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

[1sourdough]

 Of course it's only fair to compare velocities with the same load in each length. At times you see where they cut an inch or 2 at a time & tested over the chrony. I may have a little trouble with the idea of a 2" barrel on a 44 mag.

[williamlayton]

Is the writer fixating on speed as the actual indication of the potential of killing/stopping power with disregard too mass?
Will speed alone provide more killing power?
There is no denying that all projectiles will kill when proberly placed into the proper location/locations of any body, however; is mass not a presence/factor in obtaing a more potential kill?
Modern weapons--since about the 1860's and becoming better and better with with powder innovations--have evolved into being more lethal in shorter barrels. That is, powder has made the possibility of killing more available with smaller weapons, making a projectile of any size, potentially, more effective with shorter barrels.
Now--short of killing, which still requires proper placement--does not a slower moving Large projectile do more damage than a faster moving smaller projectile? This would indicate that larger facilitates more advantage--even with proper placement of any/all--as it will have more chance of disablement with an improper placement shot.
Besides that, it is easier too conceal than an 18 inch rifle or pistol.

Powders come in all ranges of burn rate. Not all are good for all weapons. Longer barrels will benefit more from slower burn rates--allowing more complete burn and possible speed accelerations, if that is the requirement you dictate.
Blessings
I think you are putting all of your eggs in one basket-and if you drop the basket, you loose everything

[coyotejoe]

I guess I've just never bought the "big, heavy & slow" theory. Big is good, heavy is OK but why would one want "slow". Won't the big, heavy bullet be even more effective if pushed faster?
 Many people disparage the kinetic energy numbers as meaningless. Tell that to the crew of a tank destroyed by a KE round. I agree the KE is not a measure of stopping or killing power because no quantifiable number exists or can ever exist. All of the trumped up formulas are demonstrably bull. KE is still the best scientific measure of a projectile's ability to do work. When the space shuttle hit 30,000 fps, if they had encountered a bit of floating debris weighing just one grain it would have had the impact of a 30/30 bullet. That's what light and fast can do.

[williamlayton]

Slow is a relative term and needs too be in context with the subject.
My Mustang is fast---but not on a Indy track.
A 230 gr  .45 at 1000 fps is not a 9mm at 1200fps but can a dead guy tell the difference.
I can push my 9x23 too 1500fps and a water jug busts open pretty good--so does the .45.
I will even say that a .32 at 1500fps will pop a bottle.
The real point is that if you don't kill, at least you want too deter pretty agressively--with whatever you are shooting.
Now to carry this even further into a pale arguement---is it better to have soft shooting weapon, that you can shoot more accurately, and faster--or the hand cannon?
Good subject.
Blessings

[Mikey]

"Won't the big, heavy bullet be even more effective if pushed faster?".  Nope!  Given the same target mass and the ability of the bullet to penetrate, whether moving fast or slow, the 'slow' one takes it by creating more damage on the way through. 

Example:  I know two men who were shot through the heart with a 45 caliber 'grease gun' during the Vietnam War.  In both cases, the bullet, moving faster, merely (right..) slipped between two ribs and through the heart but by moving as fast as it did, the entry and exit wounds closed up immediately after and both men lived; moving more slowly the bullets would have caused irreparable damage.  My father saw the same thing with 9mm bullets during WWII. 

Try this on a couple of old previously frozen turkeys you have thawed - shoot both with the same bullet, one moving as fast as you think it should and the other moving more slowly and then check the damage after - I think you will see what I mean.  Or, try this - take a Phillips screwdriver and try to push it through some medium and see how much effort it takes and what sort of displacement you have within the medium when you are finished - then do the same thing in another spot but this time use a hammer and pound it through with one stroke.  You will see the difference.......  And thank you all very much....

[Lloyd Smale]

Ft lbs of energy was a formula dreamed up by someone like roy weatherby that wanted to sell overly fast guns to yuppys that do more bragging then killing game! and its still used by companys like smith and wesson when convincing inexperienced handgun hunters they need rediculous guns like the 460. Shoot some game with handguns with both heavy slow cast bullets and speedy fast ones and come back after about 50 animals and tell me what works.

[Bigeasy]

Woods-

R/E your original question, there is plenty of velocity information / comparisons available in free powder manufacturers loading material and on the internet available with out having to spend money on a chrono.  It's unrealistic to think S&W for example, is going to advertise its 6 inch model #29, then list the velocity with every reasonably available factory and hand load in that gun.  It is assumed most consumers know the commonly listed velocity of a factory 240 grain load is subject to such factors as individual gun, bullet material, powder used, basic load level desired by manufacturer, etc...

Larry

[buck460XVR]

used by companys like smith and wesson when convincing inexperienced handgun hunters they need rediculous guns like the 460.

Lloyd......I have always had nuttin' but respect and awe for your knowledge and wisdom when it comes to handguns and reloading. Sadly, your blanket remark about S&W and the .460 disappoints me. Making a  statement about using  power and velocity to make up for lack of shooting skills may apply to some, but I assure you not all. Same for all those folk that use a 30-06 for deer instead of a slower, less ft/lbs 30-30.

 My first half a dozen deer with a handgun were taken with a .357 used as a secondary weapon to a rifle. It got so I wanted to leave the rifle at home some days but felt I didn't want to push the limitations of the .357 if the opportunity arose for a shot past 50 yards.  I now use a .460 for accuracy out past 100 yards so I can feel comfortable using a handgun as a primary weapon for deer. Many here claim that shot placement is the key, and it is.....and weapon ACCURACY has a lot to do with that. Many handguns that are accurate @ 50 yards are totally incapable of holding that accuracy out to 150 yards.....much less the power to make a clean kill.  I shoot tons of .357 and .44 and have yet to find a gun and/or a load that for me can consistently put the whole chamber in a 1.5'' bullseye @ 100 yards, like my X-frame can. Nuttin' ridiculous about it.......accuracy kills, no matter what speed your bullets are moving. Inaccurate slow and heavy bullets maim and wound game all the time too. Unlike some want us to believe, cast bullets are not magical, they will not kill if not shot with accuracy either. Like all my handguns, I don't load my .460 for speed, but for accuracy.

[williamlayton]

Buck
No disrespect meant by the following.
If accuracy is the only true test of killing power then why not a .22 as the only one too pick?
Why are bigger calibers used---the .50BMG may be the ultimate if this is true?
We are discussing two dufferent things here. Apples and oranges.
If you are wanting too consolodate the discussion too hunting then the question would be why a handgun?
A rifle is always more accurate, even at 50yds, than a handgun---for the vast majority of shooters, ME included.
In the discussion of handguns the original was targeted at self-defense.
Hunting is more akin too sniping than a firefight.
Moving targets are always more compicated than slow moving or standing targets.
Movement and heat re-defines the subject.
The question remains with an unqualified answer. Does a big slow moving object fare better in a confrontation or does a fast moving smaller object?
Now Mikey said some thing that further adds complication.
A .45super can move a 230 gr slug near as fast as a 9mm--some contend, as fast.
Do I, as a shooterof 70 years have the ability to shoot this as well as a .45government?
While accuracy is in this mix, is it not, a wider definition of accuracy than hunting--an which is the winner?
Blessings 

[NickSS]

This is an interesting thread and fun to read so I figunred I would put my two cents worth in.  One thing is for sure over a period of 100 years the Brits had military operations all over this world and ample opportunity to fire their weapons in anger and for self defense.  The sum of all of their experience boiled down to a slow moving heavy 45 caliber slug and then after even more combat experience they settled on a slow mobing heavy 38 caliber slug.  The US Army used hand guns of 44 or 45 caliber since revolvers first were used with apparently totoal satisfaction (again a heavy bullet moving relatively slowly).  When the switched to a 38 and ran into situations where a fanatic was attacking them with a bolo knife the 38 failed but the 45 worked much better or why do you thing the US army carried a 45 auto form 1911 until the late 80s and today I hear that the 9mm is not so popular as a 45 with our troops who use them.  So what does all this tell me?  That a heavy for the caliber slug moving a relatively moderate velocities makes for a good self defense round.  By the way the Brits found that the 200 gr lead slug moving at 700 fps worked just as well as their 265 gr 45 slug moving at 650 fps for stopping men at close range due to bullet instbility of the 38 slug.

[woods]

     Thanks for the replies on the barrel length and velocities I thought the velocity by the inch website was the most interesting.  I am no stranger to handgun reloading and hunting. Took my first dear with a contender handgun when I was 21 I've been hooked eversince I'm 44 now and have 11 deer under my belt now includeing 3 bucks. I practice regularly with 20 to 50 round sessions once a week usually.45's,  44's , 41's, 357's and 22's have all road on my hip for hunting and protecion. I really enjoy this website but rarely post much when I do it's usually something I am frustrated with like the published velocity of 41 mag's is usually just a 4" barrel length. It stands to reason because the model 57's were the mainstay of most 41's but that's not the case anymore. Just wish the gun reloading manual publishers understood this. Condtender is the only one that lists seperate velocities for 10"
and 14" that I can think of. Thanks for the info.

     woods

[Noreaster]

Great discussion, very civil. I love this back and forth and learned something from it. I believe KP (killing power,) is attained through different factors. I do believe that lighter, fast, quick opening rounds kill, or put down very efficiently. I also believe a big slow keith load puts meat on the table and or will defend you. They both do it, just not the same way, and of course accuracy is paramount. I tend to rely on first hand accounts, (war stories if you will,) and go from there. Good post everyone!

[williamlayton]

CIVIL!! HARUMMPH!! We will have none of this civil business.
Speed is necessary to:
1) project a missle with enough velocity too penetrate to vital organs.
2) this speed is depandant on the what it has too penetrate to reach the viatl organs with enough impact to    destroy.
3) Size/Weight can determine impact more than speed---not saying speed is not necessary.
Blessings

[Lloyd Smale]

I stand behind what i said. I dont doubt theres a few knowlegable shooters with 460s out there, i even know a couple. But its a very small percentage of who buys those guns. Mostly they sell to egos and id bet at least 3/4s of the 460s sold are owned by guys that dont have a clue how well they shoot and the only ammo thats even been shot in them is factory ammo. 

used by companys like smith and wesson when convincing inexperienced handgun hunters they need rediculous guns like the 460.

Lloyd......I have always had nuttin' but respect and awe for your knowledge and wisdom when it comes to handguns and reloading. Sadly, your blanket remark about S&W and the .460 disappoints me. Making a  statement about using  power and velocity to make up for lack of shooting skills may apply to some, but I assure you not all. Same for all those folk that use a 30-06 for deer instead of a slower, less ft/lbs 30-30.

 My first half a dozen deer with a handgun were taken with a .357 used as a secondary weapon to a rifle. It got so I wanted to leave the rifle at home some days but felt I didn't want to push the limitations of the .357 if the opportunity arose for a shot past 50 yards.  I now use a .460 for accuracy out past 100 yards so I can feel comfortable using a handgun as a primary weapon for deer. Many here claim that shot placement is the key, and it is.....and weapon ACCURACY has a lot to do with that. Many handguns that are accurate @ 50 yards are totally incapable of holding that accuracy out to 150 yards.....much less the power to make a clean kill.  I shoot tons of .357 and .44 and have yet to find a gun and/or a load that for me can consistently put the whole chamber in a 1.5'' bullseye @ 100 yards, like my X-frame can. Nuttin' ridiculous about it.......accuracy kills, no matter what speed your bullets are moving. Inaccurate slow and heavy bullets maim and wound game all the time too. Unlike some want us to believe, cast bullets are not magical, they will not kill if not shot with accuracy either. Like all my handguns, I don't load my .460 for speed, but for accuracy.

[Lloyd Smale]

Now woods im going to **** you off too. You have AT LEAST two grand worth of handguns and im sure a few more along with some rifles and shotguns. A cheap chrony chronograph can be bought for the price of two boxes of ammo. you are never going to get an accurate velocity from anyone else. Ive got 4 inch smiths that shoot faster then my 6 inch does. to many variables between guns other then barrel lenght to factor in. Not being able to afford it is like saying i cant afford to reload but i can buy factory ammo. For the price of 4 boxes of ammo you can buy a cheap lee loading outfit and it will pay for itself in the next 4 boxes. I get this all the time. Guys telling me i cant afford a good scope, my tasco works just fine and then they throw there gun into there 40000 dollar truck which is parked by there 4 wheeler (or two) there boat and there snowmobile.

I've got a small rant about barrel length velocities is there a chart somewhere I can put in my barrel length and see the velocity. I have 3  different 44 mags one a conteder with a 14" barrel one a model 29 with an 6" and a super redhawk alaskan with a 2" barrel.  It really iritates me that the gun companies know velocity but don't ever do a posting of the velocities of different lengths. Yes I know buy a cronograph that is just one more expense that I really can't afford. Anybody have an opinion on this.

woods

[woods]

     I supose your right I can afford to buy a crongraph but have never used one or reseached one yet it's on the list but a good spotting scope is going to be bought next. I don't have "all those playtoys" you talked about except a boat my truck is a late 90's but it's in good shape. I do have a gun safe that is full of my favorite toys.  I do have one thing most don't have an that is a shooting range. Nothing like itching your trigger finger when you feel like it.

     Woods

[Lloyd Smale]

20 years ago buying a chorno was an elitest thing as they were very expensive but now you can buy one for less then the cost of a good single stage press. Do i think there a manditory tool for a handloader? No but then either is alot of the other things ive bought for my hobby. I know that rarely a week goes buy that i dont use it though.

[Merle]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

Great info - thanks!!!

 

[irold]

Woods,  Don't be fooled into thinking a chrono will give ya all your answers.  I bought my first a year ago or so.  Thinking I cud shoot three shots and get a good average, etc , etc   Come to realize from shot to shot the results vary and sometimes vary a lot , depending on powder used , primer , etc.  I even measured out each individual load, inspected each and every round trying my best to be consistent.   I was disappointed.  Its not uncommon to find a 20 to 30 FPS difference in some loads, I just average it in.  I generally throw out the two extreams , high and low and average from there.   But I've grown to accept it ...I now shoot 6 to 8 rounds to get my "average" per load.  My chrono data book is getting full of "per load , per gun , per barrel lenght , etc data.  If I had it to do over again , not sure I'd even invest in a chrono....thats assuming ya don't experiment...get several good manuals , AVERAGE THEM , go from there.  Don't think the deer are gonna know whether your bullets are traveling at 1100 or 1250 FPS.

excellent thread , good discussion

regards , irold

[Curtis]

When I first got my chrony, I was tempted to throw out all my favorite loads that didn't hold as consistent as I thought they should.  It was about to cost me lots of money in load development until I came to my senses.  I now use it only to make sure my loads are safe and to satisfy my curiosity.  It's a good tool, but only tells you part of the equation.

Curtis