What's the reasoning in Super Heavy 45-70 loads?

[kevinsmith5]

After two years of loading and shooting for my BC 45-70 and reading here I've finally decided to ask what some people's reasoning is behind some of the loads they work up for the 45-70.   The heaviest I've ever gone is a 550 gr bullet (which I ONCE pushed to 1900 fps but only load to 1500 fps now) but I honestly never have fired any of those loads at anything but a target. A 410 gr load at 1750 fps seems to me would take down anything in North America, and probably most anything on the planet too. So what are you folks (like say Tyler) planning on shooting with 600-720 gr loads? Tanks?

[Swampman]

I can't say, I only shoot Trapdoor level loads after breaking the buttstock on a Marlin 1895 in the 1970s.  They seem to work very well on game.

[Mac11700]

After two years of loading and shooting for my BC 45-70 and reading here I've finally decided to ask what some people's reasoning is behind some of the loads they work up for the 45-70.   The heaviest I've ever gone is a 550 gr bullet (which I ONCE pushed to 1900 fps but only load to 1500 fps now) but I honestly never have fired any of those loads at anything but a target. A 410 gr load at 1750 fps seems to me would take down anything in North America, and probably most anything on the planet too. So what are you folks (like say Tyler) planning on shooting with 600-720 gr loads? Tanks?

Nawwww...They are going on Safari...you know...Lions..and Tigers..and Bears..Oh my
 


Mac

[PawPaw]

Momentum has a quality all its own.  Back in the black powder days, the gunners had pretty much explored the effects of expanding gases inside a barrel and the limit seemed to be about 1600 fps.  So, to get more power out of a gun, they increased projectile size.  Hence the large bore rifles of the old days.

Today with modern powders we can push a bullet faster, but momentum still has a quality all its own.  The problem nowadays is that with a big bullet going out the end with the hole, the gun kills one one end and maims on the other.  I shoot a 500 grain bullet in my 11-pound Sharps, but a 405-grain bullet in my six pound Handi.

[NFG]

Boy's will be boy's and so will many men...why would ANYONE want a 1000HP (or more) dragster or a Dodge 440 Hemi or a 454 blown out Chebbycar?...especially when the speed limit is 55-70 and a VW will do just fine as far as speed goes and get you there WITHOUT going to jail for excees speed.

Why would anyone want to climb a mountain...it's COLD up there!!!!

Basically...if you ask that question you probably won't understand the answers...not flame intended.

Why am I building a 50 cal Rigby when I have other rifles in 338, 375, 416, 45, 54, 73 cal's that will kill anything on the North American continent 3 times over and game anywhere else at least twice over.  Why am I in the process of building a .620 cal shooter?...and after that a .585 cal possibly? 

I will never use one of those large bores to kill anything larger than a sage rat, soda can, clay pidgeon or paper target...I have NO desire to blow away ANY of the larger(almost gone and soon only memories)animals to prove I'm something you DON'T want to mess with...in todays world that is macho BS.

Maybe I just LIKE getting whomped by those Big, Bad  Boys. 

More likely it's just because....

While the 45-70 might be a little light for some of the African dangerous game, it will certainly kill ALL of them with the right bullet in the right place...and so will a 22 LR, but WHICH would you rather have?

The question is never about just being adequate...it's all about being BAD TO THE BONE. Hahahahahahah

Some people ask WHY...I say WHY NOT... ...it's all fun, enjoy it, whatever wiggles your nose.

Luck

[bikerbeans]

Probably the same reasoning that results in a 357 Max, a higher pressure 45 LC or a .499HE;  because you can do it and it is lots of FUN!   

[pvtschultz]

Below is a link to a good read about long range shooting comparing different bullet weights. 

http://powderburns.tripod.com/sharps.html

[petemi]

I don't punch much paper, just enough to sight in usually.  I recently loaded 405 gr. .45-70s to 1800+ fps.  Why, I haven't got a clue.  The biggest thing I'm gonna hunt on my own land is black bear, hopefully this Fall.  I'm sure a 14 to 1500 fps load would be just fine.  I guess, just like the mountain, cause it's there.  I'm just a skinny little old Wop, and I don't desire any more pain than my .45-70 can deliver.  Knowing what goes forward also goes backward, I doubt if I'll ever want something larger than the .45-70.

Pete

[S.E.Ak]

I carry heavy when out in Brown bear country for breaking bone up close. For the two brownies I've taken I used the Hornady 350gr rn at 1,880 fps. Both pass through and one was from chin to just above the tail.

[bishopgrandpa]

NFG has it right. Why not? Just becuz.

[kevinsmith5]

Some of you aren't thinking of heavy the way I am. My standard load IS a 410 gr bullet. It drops bear, deer, feral hog and plenty more. The 550 Craters are for anything bigger I ever might face (like if a Brownie wanders all the way to NC).  It's the 600+ gr loads I wonder about.

[wreckhog]

To see if you can handle it. There is something macho about a gun that will knock out the shooter (used to shoot 12 gauge slug guns one handed).

[miyata]

Well said NFG.

Shooting some of these big bores is just plain fun. 

Try googling "Big Game Rifle Club".  If you get a chance to shoot with them you'll see some lovely antique double rifles and have a lot of fun.  We can emulate some of these famous old (low pressure) cartridges on the good ol' Handi.  Just for fun.

[petemi]

Wreck, buddy, not for me.  When I was a 15 year old kid I had a 12 ga. with a tang safety.  Couldn't remember which was safe and not.  Pointed the shotgun with one hand at the ground loaded with high brass 6s.  Touched the trigger and thought I lost two fingers.  Learning experience number S-2781.  The "S" is safety.

Pete

[Rustyinfla]

   Isn't dropping the hammer on one of those super heavy loads usually done right after "HEY Y'ALL WATCH THIS!"

[manatee1947]

I really started to steam on this one, but then erased it. "Because you can" is without doubt the poorest excuse for anything, right up there with "because I said so". It seems to be almost a pandemic.
I certainly do not see anyone trying to push the limits as heroic or someone to be emulated. That would be like me climbing my 230 pounds plus tools, paint etc up a ladder rated for 200 pounds and then stating it was a good thing or recommending it for others.
It would be different if there were nothing bigger available.

[bikerbeans]

I don't think anybody is advocating shooting 65,000 psi with a 600 to 720 grain bullet in a Handi Rifle.   Just because you shoot a very heavy projectile doesn't by itself mean you are overloading the action of your gun.  I guess if someone tells me it is silly to shoot a very heavy projectile I guess I could counter that shooting a 17 grain .17 bullet @ 4,000 FPS seems a little silly also (come on, a drop of rain will deflect one of these ).  As long as you use/make safe loads, then what difference does it really make as far as the size of the bullet?  Folks like to to do things differently, we ain't all Lemings.

Somebody tell me if I spelled Leming right, small cute rat that jumps off cliffs.

BB

[Spanky]

I really started to steam on this one

Why should you get "steamed" because someone else wants to shoot heavy loads? Nobody said you had to shoot 'em.



Spanky

[kevinsmith5]

My original question was aimed at finding out the USE for these loads. Like is there a particular function for them that I am missing that I could not accomplish with my current loads. It looks like the answer is NO.

[manatee1947]

For the same reason the SASS shooters bore black rifle guys, or recurve shooters question sportsmanship of compound shooters, etc etc. I could just say " because I can". I remember when the 45/70 was "extinct". The charm it held was its history, and that kept it alive. It was a good, efficient gun a century ago, and it still is. I wanted one for 15 years before I ever saw one, then I bought a "centennial model " Ruger #3 in 1976. It was and is a great gun, and will hold pressures unthinkable to the original guns. I shoot cast Lyman 457122 HP over 33gr of 4198. I get about 1550 fps and 1 hole groups @ 50 yds.
You are correct, one can do as one wishes, say.... a poodle in a duck blind.....or tu tu's on a pit bull. I am not seriously offended, nor wish to offend, I just wish to bestow a large good natured raspberry upon all those obsessed with the high pressure/high velocity bug.  My BC is to remind me of slower, more deliberate days, of ladies with parasols and lemonade, and large shaggy beasts that made the whole prairie tremble
with their passage. At my age, I will soon enough be history also, hurrying is not something I aspire to do.

[bikerbeans]

Manatee,

You are shooting my favorite 45/70 powder, H4198.  Now I gots to get out my Lyman 49 and see which slug is a 457122.

BB

[quickdtoo]

The 457122 is the 330gr Gould hollow point bullet, it's highly praised by Paul Matthews in his book Forty Years with the 45-70.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=370703

[petemi]

Tim, I see ya read it .  For anyone shooting and loading for the .45-70, I think it is a great read and reference.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

Yup, it's a great read Pete, thanks!  One thing nice about CRS, I can read it again sometime and it will be like a new read!! 

Tim

[NFG]

Whooooeeee...this stirred up the bee's house a bit.

I didn't say anything about overpressure loads with heavy bullets in the Handi or pushing ANY pressure limits...you DON'T have to with large heavy bullet.

Pushing the limit or "just because" doesn't entail or require anything more than trying to find something "better"...we wouldn't have ANY of the good things we have today if "someone" hadn't pushed some kind of limit to find a better product...destructive testing is done ALL the time to find safety limits because lawyers are always making a living off the dead and dying.

I like tiny hi-velo cartridges...for shooting sage rats and other vermin...some of my 17's routinely hit 4500fs WITHOUT being over pressure or dangerous...I like LARGE, HEAVY BULLETS in LARGE HEAVY RIFLES just in case I need one....whether or not I actually use one on live animals.

You don't NECESSARILY NEED a 600-720 gr bullet to kill a dear, but if I were hunting ele, buff etc., I would use the LARGES CANNON I could handle to do the job...I want the animal put down as quickly as possible, not only to make it's dying easier and quicker, but also do keep my fat little body safe...I have a very high level of self preservation...one reason I'm still breathing today after some of the "stuff" I been through.

A 400 gr bullet in the 45-70 at a "reasonable velocity",(usually defined by the person shooting) will take care of anything in the USA...a 500 plus gr slug at 1500 fs will go from end to end in a Bison without a sweat...a 720 gr slug at the same velo will probably to TWO Bison end to end, although I haven't tried.

Again...it is never about "just adequate"...it's about hairy legged, stinking, sweating, wild eyed, testosterone filled, one and a half steps above a Cromagnon, machomen doing their thing...Hahahahahahaha.  WHO SAID THAT?

People seem to forget there are always more than one reason to use the biggest and baddest to get the job done.

No one is forcing ANYONE to do something they don't want to do.  To me the arguments about "what" to use make for some funny reading...I've killed more deer with a 22LR than I ever did with anything larger.

Pandemic Manatee....pandemic?  I hardly think so...not a whole lot of people push limits of ANY KIND...in GUNS OR LADDERS... ... besides HOW would you know the rating of the ladder if SOMEONE hadn't TESTED SOME TO DESTRUCTION...even calculating the forces in a controlled setting doesn't have much meaning in the real world. 

But, I think you are right about "yesteryear", nostalgia is a good thing, Manatee...on the distaff side, look what we did to the Bison.  I shoot more "light loads" in my big bores than the "bone crushers"...I really DON'T like getting hammered all that much nowdays, but I still gotta get my juices flowing now and then. Hahahahahaha

We all have to be careful NOT to read into posts "OUR" interpretation of what they want, but rather what the poster is actually wanting...It's difficult to do and I'm probably the worst at "interpretation"...I apologize.

It just amazes me what destruction some of those HUGE bullets have on SEVERAL 20-24" lodgepole pine rounds when they hit.  It's a real neat way to make kindling...saves working a splitting maul...Hahahahahaha

Anyway...Dance with who you brung and enjoy it...it's all fun.

Luck

[AtlLaw]

hairy legged, stinking, sweating, wild eyed, testosterone filled, one and a half steps above a Cromagnon, machomen...

Huh!?  What?   Somebody call me? 
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention...    I'm very busy working up a new load for the ol' 45-120... something that'll really blow the socks offer them girly-men 45-70 shooters... 

[Swampman]

A lot more powder to achieve the same results.  I want to get the .459HB 405 grain Lee mold for $20.00.

[bikerbeans]

My bullet guy lists a 330 grain .459 HP, if it is the 457122 then I will buy 50 and give them a shot (bad pun, but I figured gcrank would like it)

Richard, please post your targets and chrono results from your 45 120 antitank rounds.

BB

[quickdtoo]

Western sells em pretty cheap, I'd order them as cast. 

Tim

http://westernbullet.com/ly4gr8.html

[bikerbeans]

Tim, 

The fellow i get cast lead from charges $9.50 per (50) 45/70 bullets.  Price the same for weights from 300 to 535 grain.  I buy 500 at a time so I just pay a Med Flat Box charge for USPS.  Can do a mixed batch, don't need 500 of the same type.  The price from your link is good also, may have to try them.  Would love to cast my own stuff but respiratory doctor says no way.

BB