Author Topic: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?  (Read 6135 times)

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Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2010, 04:19:47 AM »
John,

Could it be counter battery fire impact?

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2010, 05:13:38 AM »
John,

Could it be counter battery fire impact?

Well anything is possible There is a Rev War British Howitzer that has a hit on the muzzle at West Point,
and have heard tell of a cannon that had the enemy shot lodge in the bore of a cannon during
the Civil War. so a chance of a shell landing directly in the bore and going off........

Another possible way is if someone was not paying attention in the dark during nightfiring perhaps the shell
got turned upside down....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2010, 05:26:58 AM »
I'm referring to the one BoomJ posted.  That one sure looks like the damage was external and not internal.

The Ticonderoga mortar damage could be internal or external.  If the bomb exploded in in the ball seat,  it could have expanded the ball seat larger than the bore.  Or, the bore could have been externally damaged caving the side in.  Since it is iron, it would have take a substantial impact to bend the iron.  With out a lot more information, who know. 


Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2010, 05:45:59 AM »
My guess on the bronze mortar is that it was heated and broken with a hammer. I have heated and broken 20-25 pound bronze castings and when they are get to a temperature that they can be easily deformed they will bend and crack but once they get to somewhere above a dull red heat they will not bend but easily break into pieces, like breaking a clay pot. The good side of the barrel was probably cooler and lying on the ground so it did not deform.
Max

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2010, 05:51:56 AM »
Looks like external damage to me. Maybe it took a direct hit from opposing artillery, destroying the bed and cratering the tube?

Still speculation, of course.

On the other hand, if this were a big cannon, I'm fairly confident there would be a story (accurate or otherwise) to go with it. Maybe mortar explosions weren't glamorous enough?

Offline Victor3

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2010, 11:03:48 PM »
 
There are a few things concerning your judgement that impress me as being more than slightly problematic. You think that some great pressure (a cutting instrument of some kind that could apply great pressure) was brought to bear on the underside of this mortar to split it in this manner. Why is the right side opening outward with another crack showing above the split? How was the right side flattened to such an extent that at one point it's only a fraction of the thickness of the muzzle ring?  Why is the wall showing a realistic thickness right next to the area where it's at its smashed thinnest? Why does the area of the split that's shown in the photo display a roughness to its surface as if pressure ripped it apart as opposed to something cutting down on it? Why is there no indentation showing on the metal by the slit where the cutting edge of some apparatus applied this great pressure?
 


 Every detail in the picture is exactly what I'd expect to see if the mortar were crushed with a large square flat-faced punch (not a cutting instrument) in a press, drop hammer or similar device. One edge of the punch appears to have been positioned on C/L of the bore to make sure that the damage was severe enough that the gun could not be repaired. I suppose they could have just squashed it flat; maybe the chief demil guy figured that wasn't sufficient for whatever reason.

 After the tear occurred, the material under the punch folded inward and resisted further crushing. The pressure then caused the bbl to rotate, forcing the material opposite the punch to flatten out against the side of the punch and cause the crack.

 I don't want to hear anymore about it. I'm an expert in destroying all kinds of stuff. Just ask my Wife.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2010, 06:55:27 AM »
The bronze Mortar posted by BoomJ is a 15 cm Crapouillot type from the Citadel in Verdun.  Perhaps if someone contacted them they might be able to tell you more...I don't speak French or I would.   

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2010, 12:48:43 PM »
Double D,

Crapouillot is another French word for 'trench mortar', or 'trench artillery' (mortier de tranchée). Crapouillot describes a type of mortar used in 'World War I'; this bronze coehorn mortar with a handle is from a couple generations earlier (this French mortar may have seen action in the 'Crimean War').
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2010, 01:13:02 PM »
Double D,

Crapouillot is another French word for 'trench mortar', or 'trench artillery' (mortier de tranchée). Crapouillot describes a type of mortar used in 'World War I'; this bronze coehorn mortar with a handle is from a couple generations earlier (this French mortar may have seen action in the 'Crimean War').

Since I  "no habla francés"  You are probably correct.

http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/archives/2007/11/27/7034791.html#trackbacks

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2010, 04:53:36 PM »
That gracefull swoop is where the bolt skipped off it . The tube looks was hit big time "in comming fire".

Look at the foward edge of the trunion as well ....? It looks to me like it skipped off the barrel thru whatever carriage was there ,hit the trunion and kept on going left .

Gary

eta I could be wrong ....but I'm not .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2010, 01:49:40 AM »
Double D,

Crapouillot is another French word for 'trench mortar', or 'trench artillery' (mortier de tranchée). Crapouillot describes a type of mortar used in 'World War I'; this bronze coehorn mortar with a handle is from a couple generations earlier (this French mortar may have seen action in the 'Crimean War').

Since I  "no habla francés"  You are probably correct.

http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/archives/2007/11/27/7034791.html#trackbacks


My French is on a par with yours; so I ran the text through a couple E translators: 

Mortar of 15 cms of type(chap) Crapouillot in Verdun (Citadel)

Still on behalf of Luc Malchair ( www.fortiff.be ):

Well, I admit him(it), this one is not very getting dressed, but the funniest in the history(story) is not certainly his(her) "war veteran with severe facial injuries", but fact that it is decked out by a placard which, if I have good memory, held forth: " brightness of bomb(spray) "!!!!!!!

Part(Party) opened to the public of the citadel of Verdun, photos of 02/02/2007.


15 cm mortars type Crapouillot Verdun (Citadel) Still from Luke Malchair (www.fortiff.be): Okay, I admit, it is not very frisky, but the funniest in the History is certainly not his "disfigured", but the fact that he is wearing a placard which, if I remember correctly, was holding forth: Shiny bomb !!!!!!!
Part open the public of the citadel of Verdun, photos from 02/02/2007

Not very enlightening, but it does sound like the captions that are seen on tourist photos from sites like
Webshots, which is the kind of site I'm fairly sure I copied the pics from originally. I don't recall ever seeing the link you posted, but all those mortars seem to be from the First World War, and this one (at least in my opinion) was definitely not manufactured in that period .
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2010, 03:49:10 AM »
Brightness of bomb spray?  Literal translation--shrapnel?  Sure would be nice if we could see the actual impact point.

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2010, 01:29:43 PM »
This response from Luc Mucha'r

Quote
Good evening,
 
First : sorry for my english.
 
With this message you'll find 2 pictures of the 15 cm mortar of de citadelle of Verdun (I've got no other, sorry) and three others taken at Langres during a public exposition (where the mortar was a fake, a reproduction scale 1/1).
 
I don't know how the Verdun's mortar were damaged but the pannel for this piece was wrong. It spoke over crapouillot and this not one.
 
Nevertheless, during 1914-1915, the french artillery has no really trench mortar like germans and the France recuperated in the arsenals all what can serve. This mortar model 1838 (bronze), was one of these oldies used by the frenchies.
Problem : this mortar shooted no shells but cannonball, without effects over the german trenches. Than, the frenchies put anything in these mortar.
For me, that "anything" was the cause of the dammage over this piece (and probably over the near men) .
 
I hope my english was understandable.
 
Good luck with your research.
 
Luc Malchair""

The first two pictures are those already posted by BoomJ.  Here the other three he provided.









Offline RocklockI

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »
So if that was an standard issue mount , it may have been the cap squares that dented the trunion ?

Spooky  :o
 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2010, 03:10:01 PM »
 




 
I don't know Gary, the damage portion of the trunnion is above the capsquare.

Purely speculative but given the knowns's this is looking more and more like Battle damage...

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2010, 04:29:26 PM »
what the heck have you been reading Doug ...? I meant battle damage all along . I thought maybe the bolt /ball may have hit the trunion as well as the barrel . BUT the bolt/ball may have hit the barrel and THEN the trunion cap square and it was the capsquare that hit the trunion and dented it .

In either case the barrel damage AND the trunion damage was from the same shot ... ;D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »
what the heck have you been reading Doug ...? I meant battle damage all along . I thought maybe the bolt /ball may have hit the trunion as well as the barrel . BUT the bolt/ball may have hit the barrel and THEN the trunion cap square and it was the capsquare that hit the trunion and dented it .

In either case the barrel damage AND the trunion damage was from the same shot ... ;D

Gary look at the replica, this type of mortar has no top cap squares.  I know you meant battle damage.   We can only guess how it was actually done  an your guess is as good as mine.   Since the implication is that this mortar was used by the French in WWI, it probably was a shrapnel hit.  Who knows for sure, but it is interesting.

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2010, 09:29:15 PM »
That replica is a good looking mortar. Zulu, this would be a good candidate for your woodworking skills.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline Victor3

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2010, 02:50:48 AM »
 Looking at the replica, note the size, shape and position of the elevation mechanism in relation to the damage on the original. Could it be that an enemy shell detonated under the mortar base, driving the mechanism upward into the tube to cause the damage?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline JASmith

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2010, 04:03:18 AM »
While I'm pretty sure the context of the OP was blackpowder mortars, there were at least some failures during WWII.  The book Soviet Artillery, The Red God of War is an excellent read, covering the very beginnings of Russian Artillery through to the height of the cold war. 

One of the reported incidents was a high frequency of mortar crews found dead in their pit with an exploded mortar in it.  There was some speculation that the Germans had a super accurate weapon.  This wasn't the case.  (As an aside, the US had that ability in the latter part of the Vietnam war -- and not just with laser guided bombs.) 

As it turned out, in the stress of combat, some Soviet crews forgot to pull the trigger on the round they dropped, or there was a misfire.  So, they dropped another round -- totchka!

("Totchka means period or end!)

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2010, 04:30:27 AM »
Victor,
I always get a warm fuzzy feeling when you and I begin to think alike. :D
My story goes something like this: Whether it was caused by an outgoing or incoming shell, the shell exploded in the area right in front of the muzzle. A large piece of the wall of the shell hit inside the bore ripping the barrel open and causing the flattened section, and the outward thrust of that side of the mortar wall seen in the photo; while another large fragment of the shell went down and hit the elevation mechanism, and richocheted up into the bottom of the tube, causing the appearance of the damage we can now see on that side of the tear. I also agree with Max, that for the damage to appear the way it does on this mortar, (irregardless of how it was caused) the barrel probably had to be hot.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2010, 05:09:22 AM »
What ever happen to that mortar, without seeing the bottom there is no way for to be sure.  I have not seen anything any of use has speculated, that could not have happened, in fact to me everything written could have happened.


Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2010, 06:50:22 AM »
I still haven't heard back from Ft. Ti on the other mortar.

Offline Zulu

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2010, 02:49:11 PM »
That replica is a good looking mortar. Zulu, this would be a good candidate for your woodworking skills.

Ex 49'er,
Are you thinking the replica or would you like to see it damaged?
Zulu
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2010, 07:53:18 PM »
Zulu, The replica, of course. I hate seeing the damaged one. The stories it could tell.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2010, 03:27:13 AM »
I still haven't heard back from Ft. Ti on the other mortar.

That's funny I emailed them too early last week - no response

I guess they may be too busy to answer questions...... we'll see.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2010, 05:06:32 AM »
two emails overwhelmed the systems...more likely it has to do with onr my pet peeves.  If you provide a point of contact you need to tend to it. 

If you offer a phone number, and the phone rings, you must answer it when it rings.  If you don't have time to answer the phone, do offer it as a contact point.

I you provide an address and someone send you a ltter, you must respond to it.  If you don't have the time  or writing skills, or budget to answer a letter do not offer an address a point of contact.

If you offer an email contact and some send you an email, you must answer promptly or tell people how long it will take you to respond.  You will see this often

Before you offer any of these contacts, you must determine how you will service them and if you can't service them don't offer the service. If it overwhelms you or you staff, then don't provide the contact. 

Ignoring my email, when you tell me I can contact you by email, is rude and tells me how you attend to business.

Who  left this soapbox sitting here!

Offline GLS

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2010, 10:18:27 AM »
Found this interesting on reading on artillery casting flaws.
Maybe here is your problem?

"HOLLOW CASTING. 85
Fortunately, in pieces of artillery this portion is nearly all bored out; but where the boring
does not extend well back to the exterior of the breech, a portion of this soft spongy mass
remains, forming the bottom of the bore. This is more especially the case in very large
mortars; and the defect increases, of course, as the mass of the casting becomes larger.
Figure 60, Pl. 13, represents a large mortar with the dead -head still on, and the bore marked
out in black lines. The weak point is evidently at the bottom of the chamber.
A remarkable exemplification of this weakness was exhibited in the English mortars (13 -in.)
used in the bombardment of Sweaborg during the last war with Russia. Three of these
mortars burst after firing from 100 to 300 rounds. They split into two almost equal halves, in
a plane passing through the axis and vent, and exhibited no defect or injury except just at the
bottom of the chamber, where "a small, irregular cavity was found, with jagged sides and
bottom, as though borrowed into by some corroding agent." The metal of which they were
made appears to have been of a very indifferent quality, but pieces taken out near the
muzzle, inside the bore, showed a mixed metal of the very coarsest kind; and could the part
bored out have been examined, it would no doubt have shown a much worse texture. Most of
the other mortars showed similar defects."

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2010, 08:01:34 PM »
What is the source of the above quote?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Were there ever any catastrophic mortar failures in battle?
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2010, 10:05:26 PM »
Well, Terry, thanks to GLS we've now got some documentation of major failure of siege mortars in battle. The Allied (British and French) artillery assault on Sweaborg in the Crimean War. The majority of the British large iron mortars were damaged in use during the attack.

CRIMEAN WAR

 "The conflagration had, in fact, spread beyond the island of Vargon, and had extended to East Svarto, in its rear. During the whole night of the 10th, a heavy fire was kept up; and, upon the recall of the gunboats as before, divisions of mortar-boats again proceeded to annoy the enemy. One division, directed by Captain George Henry Seymour, of the Pembroke, was under the orders of Lieutenants Robert James Wynniatt, and James Carter Campbell (Exmouth), Charles Maxwell Luckraft (Euryalus), Henry Bedford Woolcombe, and Cornwallis Wykeham Martin (Arrogant), John Binney Scott, and Francis Moubray Prattent (Pembroke), and Henry Bartlett King (Magicienne}. The other division, directed by Captain Caldwell, was under the orders of Lieutenants Leveson Eliot Henry Somerset, and Thomas Barnardiston (Duke of Wellington), John Appleby Pritchard, and William Hans Blake (Edinburgh), Robert Boyle Miller (Vulture), and John Bousquet Field (Cossack), assisted by junior officers. In the course of the night, seeing that nearly every building on Vargon had been destroyed, and that such buildings as remained standing on East Svarto were almost, if not quite, out of range, while the enemy scarcely returned the fire, the allied Admirals agreed to discontinue the action before daylight on the 11th. By that time, most of the mortars had been disabled, and two, if not three, completely split ("It is a disgrace to our iron-founders that one old mortar of the last war stood 350 rounds, while all the others, quite new, were unfit for use, or burst, after 200 to 250", Sulivan); and the vents of some of the French guns employed in the attack had fused. There were, unfortunately, no spare mortars, owing to lack of prevision at home. There had, however, been singularly few casualties on the side of the attack, only one man, it is said, having actually lost his life. The British alone had expanded in the bombardment about 100 tons of powder, and 1000 tons of projectiles (the French mortars threw 2828 shells, and the French vessels, apart from the mortar-vessels, 1322 shells and round shot)."

"The allied fleets remained in view of the scene of action until the morning of August 13th, when they sailed for Nargen, the Merlin and Locust staying behind to take up buoys and marks. A few days later, there being practically no mortars left in a serviceable condition, the mortar-vessels were sent home. At the same moment the Sans Pareil was taking on board fresh mortars at Woolwich; but Dundas was not kept informed of what was being done. When it became known at Whitehall that the mortar-vessels were returning, a steamer was hastily despatched to meet them, and turn them back; but ere they could be re-armed, the season was too far advanced for further operations of importance in the Baltic. As the Times said, a fleet costing about .£30,000 a day for maintenance was reduced to impotence, and made a laughing-stock, in consequence of the Government's omission to spend at the right moment "about as much as a man of taste gives for three early Sevres vases." The administration seems to have forgotten that ships cannot participate in big engagements without expending weapons as well as ammunition. In future naval wars, especially if they be prolonged, it will be more than ever necessary to have made arrangements beforehand for the rapid substitution of new guns for old. Moreover, nothing is more dangerous to the moral of a gun's crew than a well-founded suspicion that the piece has already done more work than it was intended for, and may burst, or blow its breech-block out, at the next round. Yet it is difficult to avoid using a weakened gun, when there is nothing to take its place."
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.