Author Topic: Borrow a Crown Cutter.... (Read 1813 times)

Matt3357 · « **on:** May 26, 2010, 08:49:28 AM »

I like the idea of the 357 max reamer where it can be rented out for much less than it can be purchased for. I wonder if it could be done for other tools like a crown cutter. I have a 357 max that I would like to cut down a bit more and re-crown but don't trust myself with crowning by hand, with non-conventional tools. So does anyone have a crowning tool with a 357 pilot that I could borrow for a fee? It will be a one time deal for me, so buying one is very uneconomical. Let me hear your feelings on this.

Thanks,
Matt

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:16:48 AM »

I have one, would have to order a pilot bushing for .357" tho, I only have the .22 cal pilot. I'd rent it for $20 and make the same offer to others and send proceeds to GBO once the cutter is paid for if there are enough that want to use it.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=681502

necchi · « **Reply #2 on:** May 26, 2010, 10:01:10 AM »

Hey, that's a good idea

I'm questioning the 308 I have, and have been considering a crowning job.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #3 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:57:58 AM »

Tim,

If it will cut a crown on a 45/70 put me on the list.

thanks

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** May 26, 2010, 12:45:21 PM »

I need to make sure it will cut a recessed crown big enough on the 357 bore, I don't think it will do a .45-70.

They list one for .45 cal, dunno if it's .452" or .458" tho, I called PT&G, Dave was on another line, so I'll have to call back to confirm that it will work Ok in the 45-70, I think so, but would rather make sure before I commit to it.

Pic is a 223 Rem barrel I cut and crowned for Bob Tobergte when I did his ejector to extractor conversion.

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** May 26, 2010, 12:57:54 PM »

It won't do a 45-70, it would do a .357 barrel, but the recess would be just slightly bigger than the bore, so it's only meant for smaller bores, the one review at Midway states it's great for 22-25 cal, sorry. $:-\$

Tim

Matt3357 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2010, 01:59:46 PM »

Anyone else out there have a Crown cutter for larger calibers they would want to lend out?

Matt

myarmor · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2010, 02:03:08 PM »

I don't, but It's a great idea. I have a 8mm Mauser that needs a new crown on it...

-Aaron

STRANGE1 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 09, 2011, 07:56:59 AM »

Tim, I have a .223 that I have cut down (with a hacksaw). now I need to re-crown. how well does this tool work? does the end need to be perfectly square before using this tool, or will it square the end and cut the recess at the same time? I'm very, very interested in borrowing this, if the offer is still out there.

yukondog · « **Reply #9 on:** May 09, 2011, 09:50:25 AM »

Tim if its for rent I would like to be put on the 22 cal. list.I also would be interested in other cals. never crowned anything before, were could I buy other pilots for the cutter [ 357,308 and one for the 44 mag.] when done with the pilot's could donate them to the sight [you] for others to use.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2011, 09:59:49 AM »

STRANGE1, It works fine for trueing up the muzzle, it's best to file it as close to true as you can first tho, I also have a 30 cal pilot for it now, PM me your mailing address, and I'll get it in the mail to you.

yukondog, I don't know how big a pilot it will take, but I had to have PTG custom make the 30 cal pilot for it which cost $25. I made one out of brass to do the 38-55 shortys, it didn't cut much of a recess on them tho, so it wouldn't do the 44mag.

Tim

yukondog · « **Reply #11 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:51:14 AM »

Thanks Tim I would still like to do the 22,308 and 357, am I correct in understanding you have these 3 for rent? If so please let me know.

STRANGE1 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:55:44 AM »

pm sent. thanks.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 09, 2011, 01:36:59 PM »

I have the PTG Interchangeable Pilot Muzzle Crown Tool #1 Target that I posted a link to in my first reply to Matt, the only pilots I have for it are 22 and 30 cal, no 357 pilot, if Midway ever gets their 90º cutter in stock, I'll buy one and make it available, I talked to PTG, it's only made for Midway, they don't sell it, they have one, but it's $66 plus the pilot(s).

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=743874

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:13:36 AM »

FWIW, if you have cut your barrel (or are contemplating it) see the FAQs, do it clean and square everything up as good as you can, very carefully deburr the bore and try the round head rivet (or whatever) with the valve grinding compound in the elec. drill and shoot it. You might be surprised! At least it will be that far along in the process of getting a crowning tool.
You know, at one time there was not such a tool, they (we) did it one step at a time.

STRANGE1 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:50:06 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on May 10, 2011, 05:13:36 AM

FWIW, if you have cut your barrel (or are contemplating it) see the FAQs, do it clean and square everything up as good as you can, very carefully deburr the bore and try the round head rivet (or whatever) with the valve grinding compound in the elec. drill and shoot it. You might be surprised! At least it will be that far along in the process of getting a crowning tool.
You know, at one time there was not such a tool, they (we) did it one step at a time.

I shot it yesterday, after cutting with a hacksaw. I didnt have a file to smooth it with, so I used a stone to smooth out any burrs. I wasnt expecting much, so I sat my bench out at 50 yards and got a .287" group. Then I moved back to 100 yards and got a .762 and a .852 group. I know those arent great, but they are slightly better than normal for the gun. Crowning it can only improve on that, right???

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:56:57 AM »

OMG, LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:02:40 AM »

Since I don't have big bore pilots for the cutter, I use the method's in the FAQs to clean up the barrel after cutting it, a carriage bolt and valve grinding compound will cut a nice recessed crown, then ¼" drive grinding stones (round for the recess and flat for the face) chucked up in a drill with piece of soft leather(elk hide in my case) between it and a folded piece of 220>400> 600 wet/dry will polish the muzzle and crown to a fine finish, this also works for finishing the tool cut muzzles, that's what I did for Pete's and my 38-55 shortys and the 405 Win I just did as well as the 30-06 Handi-Wizard barrel that I cut to 18".

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:12:15 AM »

Quote from: STRANGE1 on May 10, 2011, 05:50:06 AM

I shot it yesterday, after cutting with a hacksaw. I didnt have a file to smooth it with, so I used a stone to smooth out any burrs. I wasnt expecting much, so I sat my bench out at 50 yards and got a .287" group. Then I moved back to 100 yards and got a .762 and a .852 group. I know those arent great, but they are slightly better than normal for the gun. Crowning it can only improve on that, right???

Nice shooting! That's a tough call, hard to make improvements on that, and it can always go the other way, ya never know, so the general thought is don't fix what ain't broke, never leave fish to find fish!! I can request a refund for the postage on the cutter if you don't want to use it, it's all ready to go in the mail if you still want it.

Tim

STRANGE1 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:49:52 AM »

I definitely still want it. I'm trying to make an honest .5 moa (at 100 yards) gun on a budget. and on top of that, i decided i like the look of the all the "tactical" rifles with the short barrels. so here we are...

Just don't be mad if I tell you its not a Handi.

blind ear · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2011, 01:28:54 PM »

Quote from: STRANGE1 on May 10, 2011, 05:50:06 AM

Quote from: gcrank1 on May 10, 2011, 05:13:36 AM
FWIW, if you have cut your barrel (or are contemplating it) see the FAQs, do it clean and square everything up as good as you can, very carefully deburr the bore and try the round head rivet (or whatever) with the valve grinding compound in the elec. drill and shoot it. You might be surprised! At least it will be that far along in the process of getting a crowning tool.
You know, at one time there was not such a tool, they (we) did it one step at a time.

I shot it yesterday, after cutting with a hacksaw. I didnt have a file to smooth it with, so I used a stone to smooth out any burrs. I wasnt expecting much, so I sat my bench out at 50 yards and got a .287" group. Then I moved back to 100 yards and got a .762 and a .852 group. I know those arent great, but they are slightly better than normal for the gun. Crowning it can only improve on that, right???

The cut and the crown would have to be Buzzard ugly before I would get anything near the bore/face junction. ear

parkergunshop · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2011, 02:36:08 PM »

My crowning tool is a cone shape brass button .625 in diameter on a shaft that you chuck in a drill and then use abrasive lapping compound to cut the crown, with a little patience you can cut a perfect crown every time. Or you can use a round headed carriage bolt as Tim noted earlier with lapping compound if you don't have my brass crowning tool. I have cut crowns for barrels from .22 caliber to .375 caliber with my tool. No pilot is needed and if missused a pilot can actually damage the rifling.

You must first square the muzzle of the barrel as someone also noted.

Crowning is not difficult and it definately is not magic, it just creates a recess at the muzzle which helps protect the rifling there. As long as you protect the muzzle from damage no crown at all is ok, as a crown neither adds to or takes away from accuracy.

If a barrel is accurate at 24 or 26 inches in length, cutting the barrel down to 22 or 20 inches will generally improve the accuracy due to less barrel vibration build up in the shorter barrel. This technique has been used by the benchrest shooting competitors for years looking for an edge. Sleeved actions with shorter fat barrels, more ridigity and less vibration.

STRANGE1 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2011, 06:01:19 PM »

Quote from: parkergunshop on May 11, 2011, 02:36:08 PM

You must first square the muzzle of the barrel as someone also noted.

That is probably my #1 goal. I can use files and stones to get it fairly close, but I am hoping that Tims cutter will help get it closer to being square with the bore. That and give it a nice, finished look.

BTW, I got my best group out of it today. .572" at 100 yards with Fiochhi 50gr v-max. It seems to like the 50gr a little better than the 40gr.

parkergunshop · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2011, 03:48:37 AM »

Strange1,
'
You can check the end of the barrel for square using a carpenter's square and get close enough. The fact that you are getting .572 inch groups at 100 yards, shows that you ahould be close enough to square as is. There is not enough taper in most barrels to make any real difference in getting a square measurement using a carpenter's square. This is how I check barrels for square when cutting them off, then use a file to true up the muzzle until the square lines up from four sides of the barrel.

The smallest qroup I have fired with a hunting rifle was with a .35 Whelen on a Mauser action. I ordered a long chambered barrel from E. R. Shaw and did the final fitting and headspacing using a mill file and 30-06 go and no go head space guages. The group came in at .174 inch at 100 yards for 3 shots. Fancy expensive tools are great and can be time savers, but the old time gunsmiths didn't have them and still built accurate rifles.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #24 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:34:51 PM »

Quote from: STRANGE1 on May 11, 2011, 06:01:19 PM

Quote from: parkergunshop on May 11, 2011, 02:36:08 PM
You must first square the muzzle of the barrel as someone also noted.

That is probably my #1 goal. I can use files and stones to get it fairly close, but I am hoping that Tims cutter will help get it closer to being square with the bore. That and give it a nice, finished look.

BTW, I got my best group out of it today. .572" at 100 yards with Fiochhi 50gr v-max. It seems to like the 50gr a little better than the 40gr.

Strange,

FWIW, I cutoff a 30-06 Handi to 18.5" and it was 18 3/8" by the time I finished squaring up my bad sawcut.

Lot of time with a file. I then did the crown by hand with a couple of very cheap grinding stones that are meant to be chucked into a 3/8 hand drill. Long story short, last range trip a got a sub 1/2" 3 shot 100 yard group with this gun. Hoping to repeat this again tomorrow, I'll let you know if it is a fluke. The gun will pretty consistently shoot 1" 3 shot groups @ 100 yards with Lake City 69 Mil Surp. Ammo so I guess like others have said you can get decent accuracy without spending a fortune on tools or the gun for that matter.

Good luck with your .5MOA quest.

BB

STRANGE1 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 16, 2011, 03:27:10 PM »

Quote from: STRANGE1 on May 11, 2011, 06:01:19 PM

Quote from: parkergunshop on May 11, 2011, 02:36:08 PM
You must first square the muzzle of the barrel as someone also noted.

That is probably my #1 goal. I can use files and stones to get it fairly close, but I am hoping that Tims cutter will help get it closer to being square with the bore. That and give it a nice, finished look.

BTW, I got my best group out of it today. .572" at 100 yards with Fiochhi 50gr v-max. It seems to like the 50gr a little better than the 40gr.

I got my crown cut this weekend (thanks Tim) and got to shoot a few times today. The groups (3-shots) with the 50gr bullets opened back up to their normal .75-1 moa.

but I shot a nice 5-shot group with the 40gr bullets that measured .655 from center to center. not quite the .5 I was looking for, but I feel like I am moving in the right direction.

gunther66 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 17, 2011, 03:54:47 AM »

BB
What size groups did you get before you shortened the barrel? G66

bikerbeans · « **Reply #27 on:** May 17, 2011, 05:54:00 PM »

As I recall my 06 @ 22" was 1 to 2 inch groups @ 100 yards. But in fairness to the longer barrel I was shooting most Lake City FMJ Mil Surp and handloads with pulled Milsurp Bullets. The better groups I get now with the short barrel are with new Rem brass and Speer Spitzer bullets so it is apples to oranges.

BB