reduced loads

[Dinny]

All the talk in the NEF/H&R rifles section has spawned new thoughts and ideas..... I have a friend who has asked me to try some reduced TB loads for him. He is into pest control and relies heavily on quieter guns during the off-hunting season to take raccoons. He wants a heavy bullet, for better penetration, at lower speeds. He wants me to load a 360gr .452" bullet with 3-4 grains of TB in my .45LC rifle. Given the TB data, I worry about the greater bearing surface and having less case capacity (longer heavy bullet), if these bullets will even clear my rifle barrel.  Any thoughts?

If I don't respond back quickly, it's cuz I'm looking for a 22" rod that I can push a bullet through my barrel with when it gets stuck. 

Thanks, Dinny

[PowPow]

Ace Hardware sells solid brass rods of various diameters in 3' lengths. Don't ask me why I know.
I like IMR SR-4759 for reduced loads. Haven't tried TB, but I do know the "1 lb"-looking can of TB is only 10 oz.

[Dinny]

Ace Hardware sells solid brass rods of various diameters in 3' lengths. Don't ask me why I know.
I like IMR SR-4759 for reduced loads. Haven't tried TB, but I do know the "1 lb"-looking can of TB is only 10 oz.

Don't worry, I won't ask. 

[quickdtoo]

Just saw this a while back on another forum...

Tim

Just tried their formula with an M1 carbine. By my measurements, 4 grains of trailboss is about the most you can get in a case without compression. Instead of a 70% min load, I used 75% or 3 grains with an Hornady 110gr FMJ.

I even called Hodgdon yesterday and asked if they thought that would be enough gas to get the bullet out of the barrel. They said probably, but they doubted it would work the action.

So tonight, I pulled the trigger, didn't hear much, the case ejected but the bolt didn't strip another round. The bullet lodged in the barrel under the front sight. It wasn't very hard to get out. Ran a clean patch down the barrel afterward, all the powder had burned.

Maybe I'll try some bluedot.

[Dinny]

Ahhh, the grim reminder. At least my Handi isn't a semi-auto.  I bet the bullet had to be pulled instead of pushed....

Anyone have an ideas on what to use for pesty raccoons where noise is an issue? A heavy bullet with 25yd 1" accuracy is all that's needed. All shots will be taken while they're on the ground. No tree shooting in this case.

Thanks, Dinny

[manatee1947]

I do not have a chronograph, but I use a 185 gr RN 358 bullet over 3.5 gr unique in my 357 handi, using 38 SP cases, and loaded to 1.550 OAL. It is very accurate ( .850 @ 50 yds) and quieter than a 22lr, more like a 22 short. That load shows 750 fps from a 4" pistol barrel, I am guessing 850 out of the 22" barrel. A cheap and fun shooter.

[manatee1947]

I posted the 38 load because I do not have a 45, I checked my Lyman book though and it shows an accuracy load of 6.0 gr of Unique and a 255 gr FB cast bullet,1,575 OAL producing 590 fps from a 7.5 inch barrel.

[Dinny]

I do not have a chronograph, but I use a 185 gr RN 358 bullet over 3.5 gr unique in my 357 handi, using 38 SP cases, and loaded to 1.550 OAL. It is very accurate ( .850 @ 50 yds) and quieter than a 22lr, more like a 22 short. That load shows 750 fps from a 4" pistol barrel, I am guessing 850 out of the 22" barrel. A cheap and fun shooter.

I posted the 38 load because I do not have a 45, I checked my Lyman book though and it shows an accuracy load of 6.0 gr of Unique and a 255 gr FB cast bullet,1,575 OAL producing 590 fps from a 7.5 inch barrel.

Thanks for the info, my friend and I both have  .357 Mag and 45LC rifles to try those loads in. Someday when I have more time off, I will load and chronograph them.

Thanks, Dinny

[243dave]

I have a 45colt 94 trapper(16"barrel) that I load very light.  I use 250gr cast bullets and hodgdons titegroup.  A minimum load is 5grs and  thats where I started working down. I went all the way down to 2 grs without getting a bullet stuck, but I'm sure it was close in doing so.  I moved back up to 3 grs and was happy.  250gr hard cast with 3grs of titegroup is no louder than a 22lr fired out of a long barrel and is surprisingly powerful.  I did some penetration test with phone books and 1x4 boards and at close range it was impressive.  You won't have a problem with killing a raccoon with these loads, in fact these loads would work on deer inside 20yds.  I'd use 250gr cast instead of 360gr because they're not needed.  Wish I had a chronograph so I can give you some numbers.  Good luck with your loads and let us know what kind results you get.  Dave  

[Dinny]

I have a 45colt 94 trapper(16"barrel) that I load very light.  I use 250gr cast bullets and hodgdons titegroup.  A minimum load is 5grs and  thats where I started working down. I went all the way down to 2 grs without getting a bullet stuck, but I'm sure it was close in doing so.  I moved back up to 3 grs and was happy.  250gr hard cast with 3grs of titegroup is no louder than a 22lr fired out of a long barrel and is surprisingly powerful.  I did some penetration test with phone books and 1x4 boards and at close range it was impressive.  You won't have a problem with killing a raccoon with these loads, in fact these loads would work on deer inside 20yds.  I'd use 250gr cast instead of 360gr because they're not needed.  Wish I had a chronograph so I can give you some numbers.  Good luck with your loads and let us know what kind results you get.  Dave  

Dave,
  Thanks for the data. Unfortunately, the only 250gr bullets I have are Hornady LE flex-tips.  They would probably work all the same, but are a bit pricey for these tests. I need to find some 250gr lead bullets somewhere to test. We'll see where my travels this weekend take me. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to talk my wife into a trip to Cabelas.   Wish me luck!

Thanks, Dinny

[243dave]

Yeah don't use the pricey bullets !!  Plus its easier to get a jacketed bullet stuck than a cast, and I imagine trying to get a jacketed bullet out of a barrel would be tough.  Good luck getting to Cabelas.   Dave

[HAMMERHEAD]

I don't know if helps but I load 6.0 grains Trail Boss under a Rainier plated 200 grain SWC for 825 fps from my Handi. Very good accuracy out to 50 yards. Noise is moderate, but my 22" .357 barrel loaded to the same velocity with lead bullets and Trail Boss is clearly quieter.

[helotaxi]

You're basically looking for a cowboy load if you're talking about .45 Colt or .38/.357.  They'll load to the absolute minimum that will clear the barrel.  Not something that I'd even bother with.  .223 load with Trail Boss would probably work out better and 55gn FMJs will penetrate just fine even at subsonic velocities.  Heck .22LR subsonics would work just fine.

[Dinny]

Raccoons run away when shot with 22lr SS ammo, sometimes to be found under decks. Not a pretty sight or pleasant smell.  I think I'll follow Paco Kelly's guidelines and run them with lower charges until I stick a bullet.

Thanks, Dinny

[snapcrackpop]

mach II 17?

[Dinny]

mach II 17?

runaways....light bullet= limited penetration and for those less than perfectly placed shots, the raccoons rarely even die.

Thanks, Dinny

[sbhg]

I have been shooting some of Penns .44 cal. W-cutter bullets out of my SBH w/ 5 gr. of w-231
I tried some loads w/ 3 grs. and they seem to be almost as accurate, when I do my part i'm getting 1" or a lil better @ 25 yds. shooting in the Elmer Keith sitting position.
The 3 gr. loads have hardly any recoil, give some a try they are economical.
Or if you can taper crimp, try some .45 auto bullets w/ a low powder charge of reddot, bullseye, w-231, any fast powder will do.

http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html
(scroll down a lil to the wadcutter bullet)

[dangerranger]

I have a 45colt 94 trapper(16"barrel) that I load very light.  I use 250gr cast bullets and hodgdons titegroup.  A minimum load is 5grs and  thats where I started working down. I went all the way down to 2 grs without getting a bullet stuck, but I'm sure it was close in doing so.  I moved back up to 3 grs and was happy.  250gr hard cast with 3grs of titegroup is no louder than a 22lr fired out of a long barrel and is surprisingly powerful.  I did some penetration test with phone books and 1x4 boards and at close range it was impressive.  You won't have a problem with killing a raccoon with these loads, in fact these loads would work on deer inside 20yds.  I'd use 250gr cast instead of 360gr because they're not needed.  Wish I had a chronograph so I can give you some numbers.  Good luck with your loads and let us know what kind results you get.  Dave  

Dave,
  Thanks for the data. Unfortunately, the only 250gr bullets I have are Hornady LE flex-tips.  They would probably work all the same, but are a bit pricey for these tests. I need to find some 250gr lead bullets somewhere to test. We'll see where my travels this weekend take me. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to talk my wife into a trip to Cabelas.   Wish me luck!

Thanks, Dinny

If you want to try some 230 gr lrn bullits Ill send you some. pm me your info and Ill get them out in tues mail. Ive been using them as cowboy loads for years. I cant see a coon throwing one back at you! Ive shot a few hogs, a horse, and a few stray dogs with them. none have walked away. I have them loaded to 850fps with tight group. today I got my first "pound" of trail boss. I read the load data, and did the math and found that I could get around 1000 loads from a pound. when I got the "pound" jar home I realised that it was only 9oz. so much for that bargain!

[Lloyd Smale]

In my experience with trail boss anything but a full case really reduces accuracy. I think to do what you want id give 2 or 3 grains of bullseye a try. now im talking cast bullets. I woudnt recomend loading jacketed  bullets down that low.

[Hodr]

I shortened a 45-70 handi to 18" and use a cast 405 grain slug over a scoop of Trailboss using the 3.1 Lee dipper.  At the barrel it is fairly quiet, at 50 yards it is fairly accurate with a tru glo red dot, at my shoulder it is light recoil.  Davidsons has Talo Trapper (18" barrel) handis in stock at this time.  I can buy one here in town for right at $270 tax included, choices are I believe 44mag, 357 mag, 45-70.  I also load trailboss with a lee dipper for my 357 mag Winchester Trapper with 16" barrel. It is quiet enough that every time I use it on the range the range master comes over to see what I am doing.  Range master says that my 357 seems to be hitting short of the berm at 100 yds and asks me to put target higher when I am shooting 25 yds.  Either one of these should terminate a racoon nicely, up on a ranch on the Mogollon rim the 45-70 is a one shot drop on feral
( abandoned ) dogs up to Rotwieler size.  I can't remember off hand which dipper I have been using for the .357.  I have a 20" lenth of brass rod I carry in the jeep to pound bullets out with, haven't had to use it yet after about 1000 rounds between the two cat sneeze loads, but I do carry it.

blindhari

[dieselman]

On another site I read about useing 00, and 000 buck (depending on cal) in stead or slugs with reduced load for just such a thing. I use the good old 22 Hornet for all my yard critters. Quite and loads from 35gr to 50gr pills get the job done everytime.

[Dinny]

Today I loaded some 220gr RN bullets into the 30-06 case with just enough TB that the bullets clear the barrel. I got down to 760fps and had decent accuracy at 50yds too.  Not exactly quiet, but definitely quieter than normal loads.

Thanks, Dinny

[243dave]

Cool, were they jacketed or cast bullets ?

[Dinny]

Cool, were they jacketed or cast bullets ?

They are Hornady jacketed round noses. Today I shot five more loaded the same.  Accuracy for 5 shots was dismal at nearly 4".  There wasn't much of a difference between my two lowest powder amounts so I will try 5 more with one more grain than last time.  Maybe that will help my 5 shot accuracy a little.

Thanks, Dinny

[Doublebass73]

My 45 Colt Carbine shoots under 1" groups at 25 yards with a 250 grain cast LFN over 5.3 grains of Trail Boss (starting load). It's pretty quiet, too.

[Dinny]

My 45 Colt Carbine shoots under 1" groups at 25 yards with a 250 grain cast LFN over 5.3 grains of Trail Boss (starting load). It's pretty quiet, too.

Cool!  I'll try that with a 230gr cast RN when my 45LC Handi gets back from the doctor. 

Thanks, Dinny

[Win 1917]

Today I loaded some 220gr RN bullets into the 30-06 case with just enough TB that the bullets clear the barrel. I got down to 760fps and had decent accuracy at 50yds too.  Not exactly quiet, but definitely quieter than normal loads.

760fps is super-reduced but for higher speed reduced loads I've really good success using Speer data. I don't know what they recommend for 30-06 but I've used IMR SR-4759  in 25-06 and IMR 5744 in 260 with excellent results. 

[Big Ryan]

Cool, were they jacketed or cast bullets ?

They are Hornady jacketed round noses. Today I shot five more loaded the same.  Accuracy for 5 shots was dismal at nearly 4".  There wasn't much of a difference between my two lowest powder amounts so I will try 5 more with one more grain than last time.  Maybe that will help my 5 shot accuracy a little.

Thanks, Dinny

Not a very good idea to run TB and jacketed bullets. I have worked extensively with TB powder for several yrs now, been on the phone alot with the techs, and they flat out discourage using TB powder with anything but cast loads. Yours may have shot fine, but the pressure buildup is very great, also you risk the chance of getting one stuck in the tube and then putting another one down the pipe without knowing the first shot got stuck, as you know this could cause some serious problems. Just a FYI, hate to see someone get hurt. That being said my fav TB load is running a 700gr T-Rex cast bullet out of my encore 500 S&W at 650 FPS. Talk about a Whalop!

[Dinny]

Big Ryan,
  Thanks for your concerns, I use the guidelines published by IMR and assure that each bullet clears the barrel before firing the next by loading them singly.


Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

Not a very good idea to run TB and jacketed bullets. I have worked extensively with TB powder for several yrs now, been on the phone alot with the techs, and they flat out discourage using TB powder with anything but cast loads.

Not any more, as Dinny pointed out, Hodgdon now offers TB loading advice that includes jacketed bullets.

Tim

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf