Author Topic: New carbines? (Read 1228 times)

Merle · « **on:** May 30, 2010, 09:06:17 AM »

Greetings,

I am considering getting a carbine for training new shooters (light recoil) and/or informal competition (local range has a tactical carbine match in the works). I'm considering a High Point or a Kel-Tech in a pistol caliber. Another possibility is a commercial M-1 carbine.

Does anyone have any ACTUAL experience with any of the above? I have seen an unlimited list of "I believe" type of posts, but I don't trust anybody's opinion who has not actually used the item in question.

Thanks

Dee · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2010, 10:02:18 AM »

I have never shot the Kel-Tec or the Hi-Point. I have shot the M1 Carbine. My judgement of the M1 Carbine is that, it would make a reasonably efficient jack handle.

v-man · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2010, 10:48:03 AM »

Agree with above on M1. Never shot the KelTec but that ugly Hi Point 995 is hard to knock. It keeps shooting and for tactical training the low cost and relibility make it worth looking at. Many people on this forum and others, like me, are a little embarrassed to admit the ugly thing is a real shooter.

Merle · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2010, 04:35:12 PM »

Quote from: Dee on May 30, 2010, 10:02:18 AM

I have never shot the Kel-Tec or the Hi-Point. I have shot the M1 Carbine. My judgement of the M1 Carbine is that, it would make a reasonably efficient jack handle.

Don't hold back - tell me how you really feel!!!

Thanks for the reply.

Merle · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2010, 04:41:24 PM »

Quote from: v-man on May 30, 2010, 10:48:03 AM

Agree with above on M1. Never shot the KelTec but that ugly Hi Point 995 is hard to knock. It keeps shooting and for tactical training the low cost and relibility make it worth looking at. Many people on this forum and others, like me, are a little embarrassed to admit the ugly thing is a real shooter.

Yeah, for punching holes in paper M-1 carbine ammo is a bit much. The price tag on generic 9mm ammo sure looks better.

Thanks for the response.

jmayton · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2010, 06:37:18 PM »

Lets see, I own a M1 Carbine and love it. It's an early commercial Universal, but made with a military receiver, so it's not the later ones that don't feed and just don't shoot good. Finding an actual military issue M1 is a pricey move, but the military rifles do shoot better than most of the commercials. I'd shoot it in a carbine match just for the fun of it. . . and actually see a lot of guys running them. I've shot the HiPoint and other than a feeding problem (that may have been the ammo or magazines fault), really liked it. I've handled the Kel-Tec and it seems well made and my friend that owns it told me it shoots well. His son liked it a lot. All in all, I don't find anything significantly wrong with any of your choices.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #6 on:** May 31, 2010, 02:11:36 AM »

high points are but ugly but are a pretty good gun. I had a 40sw and it was very reliable and suprisingly accurate. I gave it to my neighbor and hes put thousand of trouble free rounds through it. What i would look for if i wanted a gun in that catagory is one of the ruger pc9s or better yet a pc40. they can be found used if you search enough and are about as bullet proof of a gun as youll find. I too like the m1 carbine but ive had crap luck with the comercial ones and IF you can find a original in good shape your going to pay dearly for it and dearly for the ammo too. Another good alternative and a bit cheaper is the marlin camp9 if you can find one. the one i had had some teathing problems but all it took to run great was a wolf recoil spring. Out of all of them id take a ruger pc hands down though.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2010, 04:14:24 AM »

I have an M1 Carbine and a HiPoint, and have shot the KelTec.

The M1 would have made more sense a few years ago. They have gone way up in cost, both the guns and the ammo. While they have a place in our history and I enjoy mine, they just may not be the ticket for your purpose. Flatter trajectory and better penetration of the 30 carbine over the 9mm doesn't really matter for your purpose, buying bunches on 9mm for carbine and pistol training makes more sense.

The HiPoint is a good shooter, but has a flimsy feel. The new model has a much improved stock. Less flex making it just feel better in the hands. They also have no BS customer service. You have a problem with their gun, they fix it or send you the parts.

The KelTec has the advantage of taking Glock or Baretta magazines, which is nice. For the training purpose though, the ten round HiPoints are fine. The KelTec fold up feature makes it an outstanding truck gun. Nice feature but outside the scope of your purpose.

I'd say pick up a new HiPoint and try it out. You may decide that it's worth getting as many as you need. They are a great value for a knock around gun in a better than 22lr/ less than real rifle round shooter.

Merle · « **Reply #8 on:** May 31, 2010, 04:33:47 PM »

Quote from: jmayton on May 30, 2010, 06:37:18 PM

Lets see, I own a M1 Carbine and love it. It's an early commercial Universal, but made with a military receiver, so it's not the later ones that don't feed and just don't shoot good. Finding an actual military issue M1 is a pricey move, but the military rifles do shoot better than most of the commercials. I'd shoot it in a carbine match just for the fun of it. . . and actually see a lot of guys running them. I've shot the HiPoint and other than a feeding problem (that may have been the ammo or magazines fault), really liked it. I've handled the Kel-Tec and it seems well made and my friend that owns it told me it shoots well. His son liked it a lot. All in all, I don't find anything significantly wrong with any of your choices.

OK, thanks. It is starting to seem that Kel-Techs & reasonably priced M-1 carbines are very difficult to find.

Merle · « **Reply #9 on:** May 31, 2010, 04:36:25 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on May 31, 2010, 02:11:36 AM

high points are but ugly but are a pretty good gun. I had a 40sw and it was very reliable and suprisingly accurate. I gave it to my neighbor and hes put thousand of trouble free rounds through it. What i would look for if i wanted a gun in that catagory is one of the ruger pc9s or better yet a pc40. they can be found used if you search enough and are about as bullet proof of a gun as youll find. I too like the m1 carbine but ive had crap luck with the comercial ones and IF you can find a original in good shape your going to pay dearly for it and dearly for the ammo too. Another good alternative and a bit cheaper is the marlin camp9 if you can find one. the one i had had some teathing problems but all it took to run great was a wolf recoil spring. Out of all of them id take a ruger pc hands down though.

I've been watching for a Ruger or Marlin, but they seem to be as easy to find as Bigfoot!!!

Thanks for the reminder.

Merle · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2010, 04:41:01 PM »

Quote from: jlwilliams on May 31, 2010, 04:14:24 AM

I have an M1 Carbine and a HiPoint, and have shot the KelTec.

The M1 would have made more sense a few years ago. They have gone way up in cost, both the guns and the ammo. While they have a place in our history and I enjoy mine, they just may not be the ticket for your purpose. Flatter trajectory and better penetration of the 30 carbine over the 9mm doesn't really matter for your purpose, buying bunches on 9mm for carbine and pistol training makes more sense.

The HiPoint is a good shooter, but has a flimsy feel. The new model has a much improved stock. Less flex making it just feel better in the hands. They also have no BS customer service. You have a problem with their gun, they fix it or send you the parts.

The KelTec has the advantage of taking Glock or Baretta magazines, which is nice. For the training purpose though, the ten round HiPoints are fine. The KelTec fold up feature makes it an outstanding truck gun. Nice feature but outside the scope of your purpose.

I'd say pick up a new HiPoint and try it out. You may decide that it's worth getting as many as you need. They are a great value for a knock around gun in a better than 22lr/ less than real rifle round shooter.

Thanks. It seems as if the 9mm is the way to go, as ammo is cheaper. I don't have a 40 S&W, but do have 45 ACPs - it's good to simplify the ammo pool.

It's good to have the advantage of a side-by-side comparison.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2010, 05:57:06 PM »

Another vote for the Hi-Point. I have one in 9mm, and its a blast to shoot. I put a cheap red dot on top, and mounted a flashlight w/ pressure switch on the forearm. It makes for an extremely affordable practice gun. Mine has been 99% reliable, with maybe one jam every couple of boxes. Not perfect, but I have seen big $ Colt 9mm sub guns that we staked our lives on do no better. The reason I chose 9mm is only because I have tons of it sitting around, so the gun would be cheap to feed. My only real criticism with it is the lack of high capacity mags. The factory mag is limited to 10 rounds. Plenty for practice and training, but limited for use in a real combat situation. I have heard spotty reviews of the aftermarket 15 round mag that is available.

Larry

Merle · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2010, 05:22:23 AM »

Quote from: Bigeasy on May 31, 2010, 05:57:06 PM

Another vote for the Hi-Point. I have one in 9mm, and its a blast to shoot. I put a cheap red dot on top, and mounted a flashlight w/ pressure switch on the forearm. It makes for an extremely affordable practice gun. Mine has been 99% reliable, with maybe one jam every couple of boxes. Not perfect, but I have seen big $ Colt 9mm sub guns that we staked our lives on do no better. The reason I chose 9mm is only because I have tons of it sitting around, so the gun would be cheap to feed. My only real criticism with it is the lack of high capacity mags. The factory mag is limited to 10 rounds. Plenty for practice and training, but limited for use in a real combat situation. I have heard spotty reviews of the aftermarket 15 round mag that is available.

Larry

Well, the Hi Point sure gets a lot of votes. I've been digging around various forums & it seems 90% or more are satisfied. At least for the carbines; the pistols aren't quite as popular. I guess I'll have to try out a 9mm, as I too have a boatload of left-over ammo.

For my intended purposes, an occasion malfunction is good - it supplies needed "crisis management" training. Plus if I do use it in the local matches, I'll not be out much if it malfunctions.

PS: from what I am reading, the new 15 rnd ProMag's seem to work a whole lot better, with some requiring a minor emeroy cloth polish of the feed lips. Much better than previous reports.

Dee · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2010, 06:09:39 AM »

Quote from: Merle on June 01, 2010, 05:22:23 AM

For my intended purposes, an occasion malfunction is good - it supplies needed "crisis management" training.

In all my years of training for myself, and training others, I have never heard that said of a weapon being considered for possible defense.

Merle · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2010, 01:29:30 PM »

Quote from: Dee on June 01, 2010, 06:09:39 AM

Quote from: Merle on June 01, 2010, 05:22:23 AM
For my intended purposes, an occasion malfunction is good - it supplies needed "crisis management" training.

In all my years of training for myself, and training others, I have never heard that said of a weapon being considered for possible defense.

I agree, if it is intended for self defense, that malfunctions aren't good. But back when I was young, it was common for the old timers to introduce malfunctions, so that you would learn how to deal with them on the range - not when TSHTF (at the time I was a Navy nuclear weapons security guard). Much better off that way. Now the young cops give me a blank look when I refer to a tap-rack-bang drill. Maybe they think their equipment will never fail, or there isn't enough training budget, or

At any rate, I still feel it is a good thing if the shooter can deal with problems. I'd like to see all of the good guys live to a ripe old age.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #15 on:** June 02, 2010, 02:33:43 AM »

any gun that doesnt run a 100 percent doesnt stay in my safe long.

jmayton · « **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2010, 06:07:51 AM »

So, Lloyd, you got an empty safe?

Seriously, and hopefully not hijacking this thread, I agree with you and if I have a problem with a weapon that will not function properly (like when I installed the ejector on my Mosin Nagant backwards) I try to figure out the problem and fix it. . . but even then, there will be the occasional FTF, FTE, or FTC caused by either ammo, magazine, broken this or that, or lack of maintenance. . . so 100% is pretty hard to come by.

I will say that the Hi Point that I shot did have a couple of problems chambering rounds. . . but I think it was a mag problem.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2010, 02:32:20 AM »

nope last count there were 8 ars of various configurations, 7 1911s and various other semi auto pistols. No light caliber carbines right now though. I too will allways give a gun a fair shake. If its something small it needs like a feed ramp polished ect i will do that. My semi autos all get the same test. After a break in period I go to the range and shoot them for two days. I shoot 500 rounds the first day with a clean gun. I go home and oil it without cleaning and go back the next day and shoot 500 more. If the gun fails to pass this test ill maybe tinker a bit and try it again. If it fails the second time it goes up for sale. The only thing i let slip by is a malfunction due to ammo. Most good guns will pass this test right out of the box. Its only then that i will trust my family and my life to a gun.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2010, 04:26:47 AM »

I think we can all agree that we want reliable guns. At the same time, nothing made by the hands of mortal man is going to be perfect.

jmayton · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2010, 05:14:09 AM »

Lloyd, I wasn't trying to get you riled. . . just having a little fun. I agree wholeheartedly that a weapon that will malfunction even occasionally is not one worth having. And I like the test you do. Mine's not that scientific, but usually includes the weapon riding around in my jeep and getting dusty and muddy to the point that I'm embarassed to claim it as mine. So far, the only problems I've had with my AR, 1911, and Glocks have been ammo related. That being said, there is a lot to learn from dealing with malfunctions, so I still occasionally do empty chamber drills with my wheel guns (to eliminate flinch) and dummy rounds with my semis just to keep myself sharp in the event of a bad primer or other problem.

The best malfunction I ever had was during a 3 gun where after 4 rounds my 1911 (which never seems to malfunction) suddenly locked up. As I began my tap-rack-bang routine, I noticed that for whatever reason I had only loaded that mag with 4 rounds! At least targets don't shoot back.

RB1235 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 03, 2010, 06:15:52 AM »

Sorry, I don't have a whole lot of experience with the ones these fellars are talking about but I will link up an info page. http://www.mouseguns.com/smallrif.htm

I have a couple of m1 carbines in .30 and 5.7 johnson. They are good little rifles and quality made. IMHO not worth what they are asking today though. And accuracy is not that great unless you put some work in them and reload.

Also have a couple IMI uzis in 9mm and 45. Very high quality and accuracy. They are way to high these days, but there was a Chinese clone that was just as good minus cosmetic and currently is one made in US by vector which is reported to be as good as the IMI.

Last is a vector mp5 clone. It is the best carbine I own. Very high quality and accuracy is superb. Actually it is very comparable to the uzi, just a lighter package and ergonomics are better. I have no idea what they are going for today, picked it up used quite a while ago.

shvlhead.45 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2010, 09:29:02 AM »

It's just a thought but if you are just going to use the carbine for training, wouldn't some of the .22 LR carbines out now fill the bill?

Bulk .22 LR ammo sure is a lot cheaper, allows for more trigger time too.

Range for the .22 is about the same as for pistol caliber (not revover) carbines.

I know that the more time I spend with the .22 LR in carbine and pistol the better I do when the centerfires come out.

v/r
Shvlhead.45

Merle · « **Reply #22 on:** June 04, 2010, 02:11:32 PM »

Quote from: shvlhead.45 on June 04, 2010, 09:29:02 AM

It's just a thought but if you are just going to use the carbine for training, wouldn't some of the .22 LR carbines out now fill the bill?

Bulk .22 LR ammo sure is a lot cheaper, allows for more trigger time too.

Range for the .22 is about the same as for pistol caliber (not revover) carbines.

I know that the more time I spend with the .22 LR in carbine and pistol the better I do when the centerfires come out.

v/r
Shvlhead.45

Yes they would, and I have a Ruger 10/22 & an Iver Johnson 22 carbine (clone of an M1 carbine) reserved for that function. But part of the idea was to use it in some local "tactical" matches, and the 22 LR won't do for that. I consider that to be more or less of a "graduate" program, and also a way to expose folks to something other than my way of doing things.

I quite agree with the 22 LR idea, and have been shooting a LOT of it for the past year or so, to avoid bankruptcy!

Thanks for the thoughts.