Author Topic: am i the only one confused  (Read 1274 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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am i the only one confused
« on: November 24, 2003, 01:51:12 AM »
am i the only one confused about terminaology used in our society today.
boys you can take your best shots at me on these if'n ya want too--but ya better think about it real hard.
the u.s. constitution is NOT a conservative document. it is a very liberal thought.
NOW boys we are into humanism--not under gods way--under mans way of making things better.
under humanism you must give liberty to have liberty.
under humanism you can not distinguish right from wrong based on any precept other than human conscience--ie, if it feels good and right.
humanism leads to disorder and a breakdown of society.

we are all liberal in this society we have created and live in.

if you are conservative you want control. ie, the person or group in power makes the rules for what is right, wrong, good, bad. think of the golden rule here--he who has the gold makes the rule.

as gunowners, activest, advocates are you consevative or liberal. if you think conservative then remember, conservative governments control and limit freedom-liberty, if you can. if you think liberal-remember you must give liberty.
a conservationist is conservative-look at the words-not liberal. a liberal is republican in thought and action.
 now boys what i'm saying is things need to be thought out-all the way thru to the end results of our actions.
consider what you are and what you want-in a humanistic thought process- and wonder if the things we hold dear are given to us  as giving a dog a bone to keep him from keeping ya awake at night.
soapbox is clear
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Jack Crevalle

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am i the only one confused
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2003, 06:13:26 AM »
Unfortunately I think you are confused. I think the term liberal in the way that you are using it is an antiquated form. Liberal used to mean someone who was in favor of personal liberty and as such describes the framers of the Constitution. Liberals today however are very much against personal freedom and it is they who strive to control every aspect of a person's life.

Just as unfortunately, the word conservative used to stand for personal freedom and limited government. Now there are those who call themselves conservative who want larger government and less personal freedom. True conservatives need to either distance themselves from those who call themselves conservatives but seek to limit personal freedom or they need to bring these so-called conservatives back into the fold. Otherwise there is going to be a huge rift in the "Right".

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2003, 09:12:23 AM »
well all governments that, historically limited human rights, were called conservative.
this nation was a liberally created republic.
any limiting of human rights is conservative. remember the give to get part.
i think the part that is being misunderstood is the cross from liberal to consevative and the breakdown-eventually- of the society being liberally governed.
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline dbuz

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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2003, 03:35:24 PM »
I don't think you know what a liberal is. A liberal (Ted Kennedy, Tom Dashcle, Howard Dean, Richard Gephart, ect..) is someone who wants what you have because they think you are too stupid to know what to do with it. They think the government knows whats best for you. They want your money to put into the coffers and distribute it as they see fit. They want big government until it comes to the military, then they want to wave their peace flags and give all of our control to the u.n. They want to take away your gun rights while they have armed guards paid for by our money (we are supposed to use 911 :roll: ). They want to redistribute the wealth to the lower class to buy their votes so they can stay in office. Most of their ideas would fit in with the communist governments of the world. They want to protect stupid insects and plants to end the enjoyment of the forests and rivers. They want to end the rights given to us by the Constitution unless they need to use them for their agenda. I could go on and on for hours but I need to get in the bed.
If you can earn it, why did He have to die?

Offline dbuz

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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2003, 03:37:53 PM »
How could I for get the clintons? They were in red china protesting the vietnam war burning American Flags. How could those commies ever get elected in this country? :shock:
If you can earn it, why did He have to die?

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2003, 04:19:18 PM »
well-lets sort this out.
all i said is we have confused what a liberal is and what a consevative is.
all i have heard is what a consevative is in the eyes of many of use folk who are pro-weapon possession.
what is needed is a clarification of the term "liberal" & "consevative"-that these terms be used in proper contex.
a liberal-me think-should be in favor of liberal weapons legislation. coversly a consevative.
we have even turned the term left wing-right wing around. originally it was just the opposite.
what i did say that should have sent tremors thru your ranks is "to have liberty one must grant liberty". no one seemed to notice this or pay any attention to it. cetainly no one has thought thru this.
please do not argue the point concerning interpretiting the constitution consevatively as it is not  conservative literature and therefore must be interpreted liberally. our folks created a liberal nation-that brings with it liberal practice-that bring forth a nation in constant transformation. that is why we pass laws which repeal laws which were good laws till they were out of favor and became bad laws.
remember the second law of thermodynamics.
some good thought here-some usual reaction stuff. mostly folks just not reading thru and thinking bout it fore they react.
still it is good discussion and out of good discussion come good ideas.
blessing in christ jeasus on the advent of his birth for our sake.
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline dbuz

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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2003, 04:08:16 PM »
I think the terms liberal and conservative refer to government spending. The liberals want to take all of your money and give it out liberally (note that they want to help others with your money and not their own, we know most of them are multi-millionaires) and conservatives want to keep government spending low (note that as I write this, G.W. is spending a heck of a lot of money with education and medi-care-Is he really a conservative?). I understand what your point Mr. Layton.
If you can earn it, why did He have to die?

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2003, 09:23:27 PM »
dbuz-
ya bring up a good point. it is kinda like my household. i think you can be liberal with a lot of things, mind, body and spirit. but you must be consevative in the things you can allow. you can't be liberal past ur means to support.
christ jesus is liberal and consevative. if he were not liberal with his love and tolerance with a fallen sinful man, well ya know. but he draws a line, consevative, with his grace, in a way, by offering it to thoses who believe him. but i digress from the humanistic  boundaries i originally stipulated.
i still believe we must be liberal-as liberal as we can afford-in allowing liberty to have liberty.
i have concerns about things such as same sex marriages, and moral codes-but if i am humanistic, wanting to maintain a republic then i must - well it is a conflict within me.
which kinda brings me to the point i was thinking about- man cannot bring about the kind of world we want- we are incapable of governing because we are so incomplete in our own selves. yet we will not trust in the one capable of doing so for fear he will limit us in our own personal desires, and he will. we are a prideful people, not just the good ol u.s. of a. but the world as a whole. we are, as liberal as we want folks to be towards our own selves, incapable of setting limits for fear of them setting limits- we are really not as conservative as we think we are.  
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline dbuz

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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2003, 02:43:29 AM »
Mr. Layton
I agree. This nation is far from a Christian nation. It has been rooted in humanism for a long time. I sadfully think we are past the point of no return. If you look at what rules this country, I think we can all agree that the stock market does. We as a nation are deep rooted in greed, the desire to get more and more. Look at the blessings Christ has bestowed upon us and how we have trampled Him under our feet. He wants to be the Lord of our life but we are too preoccupied with the things of the world to do what He wants for us, even though it would make our lives more complete. He doesn't tell us not to sin because He wants to hold "fun things" from us. He knows what's best for us and that sin wrecks lives. Even though I like a lot of the conservative talk show hosts I listen to from time to time, the majority of them are rooted in humanism. Thank God for His grace and mercy. Grace-giving us what we don't deserve. Mercy-not giving us what we do deserve.
If you can earn it, why did He have to die?

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2003, 08:45:55 AM »
amen.
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Loader 3009

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am i the only one confused
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2003, 04:37:11 AM »
I think all of you are right.  The terms as used today are in conflict with the terms as they were used in the middle of the last century.  They should be replaced with more descriptive and easier understood words.  Unfortunately, English is a "living language" and meanings change over time.  How many of you are "happy and gay"?

Would any of you care to submit new words for Liberalism and Conservatism?  English is putty in our hands.
Don't believe everything you think.

Offline ironglow

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Yes, you're confused......
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2004, 03:14:59 AM »
.....but then, so are millions of others!
     The problem is with the CLASSICAL definition of Liberal and Conservative....
   Yes, our Constitution was written by Liberal politicians; that is by the standards of 1787....
     Do you think for one moment that "Liberals" of that time, such as Patrick He3nry, Ethan Allen or G. Washington compared favorably with the Teddy Kennedys or Barney Franks of today?
    We all know better than that!!!
 
   In fact, today's Liberal doesn't even compare with Harry Truman or JFK!
   
      If need be, to help clarify the differences between Lib/Con, just consider Conservative and Republican parties as conservative, and Liberal/ Democratic parties as Liberal (by 2004 definitions), the ask yourself these questions:

     Which party;
   1. Wants to limit your choices of school, jobs,prayer and Bible study?

   2. Which party historically, has fought against  your 2nd ammendment rights?

   3.Which parties have historically, tried to keep government off out backs and out of our pockets?
   
    4. Which party has always reached into our hard-working pockets to get $$ to hand out to people who REFUSE to work?
   
     5. Which party has enacted all types of "social" programs that not only cost taxpayers wages into May each year, but don't even work?
     
      6. Which party enacted the "War on Poverty", that broke up millions of families and placed those they claimed to "liberate" into servitude to their party....begging for government handouts?

   As far as Jesus being anything like today's Liberal....thoughts like that are near blasphemy!!!

      Which of these Liberal programs would Jesus have endorsed?
 
       A) Abortion of 40 million Americans...
             When Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come to me!"...I
       highly doubt he ment that early or that way!!

        B) Homosexual clergy (see Romans 1:25-29)

        C) Homosexual marriage

        D) Keep any mention of God (Jesus) out of public discourse.

        E) Do not allow ten commandments to be displayed

         F) Sp[onsor art institutions that blaspheme God in their paintings  
          and such things a crucifixes being inverted in a vat of urine.

                  Do you suppose Jesus wouldn't want  athletes to pray before
           games...or wants the Boy Scouts to be forced to have
           homosexual leadership to camp out with???

         If you in any way can think that Jesus is comparable to today's
         Liberal, you had best re-read your Bible...a little closer this time!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline onesonek

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am i the only one confused
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2004, 05:57:33 AM »
Regardless of terminology, our political system shifts. In general, the political, and social scene of forty, fifty years ago is almost opposite of what it today.
They say hindsight is 20/20. The main problem, we have as Americans today. Is that memories are either very short, or very selective. And that there are far too many, illiterate in reading " between the lines" of the political, and media BS. Then of course, there is the problem of those whom just, don't care what happens.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2004, 08:06:22 AM »
Would one say that Christ Jesus, who was the penanty for the sins of this world, was liberal or consevative?
Those things ya bring up are good questions, and i think I know where your coming from, but do you understand my point. We are all as bad as those folks ya mentioned, can ya expect him to forgive you and not them?
I think I'm coming from a conservative reading of the word of a pretty liberal savior. When I say bad "as", what I mean is I am not a believer in mortal or venial sins. Lieings jest as bad as murder, thru abortion or mayhem aint it. One sin, unwashed by the blood, is condemnation.
Maybe ya see it different.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline ironglow

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am i the only one confused
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2004, 12:51:55 PM »
William;
   I believe I am with you theologically. One sin...any sin condemns us, and only the blood of Christ can wash it clean! As far a mortal and venial sin, this is a nonexistant issue as far as I am concerned. I know that means something to other folks here...so I won't debate that issue.
   Don't forget William; sin is only forgiven if we ASK for forgiveness, and then REPENT(turn away) from that sin...or all sin , as best we can.
   The simple truth is that many, if not most of today's Liberals are defying and denying God. They believe that people that believe in God are one of this nation's biggest problems.
   If they don't belive that God or sin exists, they cannot be saved by him from them!!!
   It wasn't Conservatives that went after Judge Moore, tried to kick prayer out of school, promoted the blasphemous "art" works or caused the death of dozens of the women and children (US citizens) at Waco!
    It is not Conservatives that are pushing the death of millions of boys & girls before or during their birth. It is not Conservatives that train kids how to put a condom on a cucumber, nor is it conservatives that want to disarm you, while going soft on the criminals that would turn their guns upon you!
  It is not Conservatives that want to teach sex techniques to our children from third grade up. It is not Conservatives that are promoting sodomy....the thing that God destroyed entire cities for.

   Will; those are all today's Liberals programs....

   Agreed....2000 years ago Jesus would have been considered a Liberal, but a Liberal of 2000 years ago would be more like a "far right winger" of today.

     Dr. Don Boys, an Evangelical legislator and scholar from Indiana wrote two great books about this subject:

    1. Is God a Right Winger

    2.LIBERALISM: a rope of sand

    Good reading if you can find them!

          Maranatha; John 14:6
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2004, 02:38:06 PM »
jest a picky point I guess. Well anyway there is a lotta sinin going on an I guess ya can call sinin liberal, can a liberal, in many ways be a chrisian, i guess i'm tryin not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.An, well, can a consevitive be a non-Christian, I'm thinkin of tricky dicky here i guess. I'm thinkin liberal/conservative is not the criteria for bein Christian. Many Christians are labled liberal.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2004, 02:04:18 AM »
Sure William;
  A Liberal CAN be a Christian and a Conservative CAN be an unbeliever;
I was speaking in generalities.
   Let's look at it this way...Someone that dislikes football or boxing COULD be a referee.
   Someone who dislikes golf, COULD work as a grounds keeper.
It take perhaps, a bit more  credibility to see how a person that truly loves children, could be an abortionist...
   
      I have a friend that doesn't play billiards....but sets up billiard tables!
 
  I point out these things out to show that such things are POSSIBLE but not common.

    Relate it now partywise......

  Do you recall when, a few years ago, a couple pro-life Democrats wished to speak at the Democratic national convention....they were not only denied the platform, but basically ostracized by the party.

     The Republicans a few weeks later, at their convention, set aside a parcel of time for the few pro-choice (what choice does the baby get?)
reps....
  This not only demonstrates that percentages of pro-life & pro-aborts are very lopsided concerning both parties.
    It also demonstrates whether those who claim to have a corner on "tolerance" really do!

   Yes Will, "with God, all things are possible" (Matt 14:26).....but it is best if one is truly "with God" at the starting line!

    Drawing an analogy, I have heard of Pit Bull dogs nursing kittens....but it's not very common!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline trick45

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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2004, 08:22:37 AM »
Back to the origianl topic, I rather like the model of the "The Political Compass" website. It's from the UK, so the terminology is different, but the way it's described there, you have two axes: the "x" axis is economic, and is labeled Liberal...Conservative. The "y" axis is governmental, and is labeled Libertarian...Authoritarian. By that standard, the U.S. constitution is neither liberal or consevative, but it's totally libertarian. In light of the subsequent discussion in this thread, I posit that there may be a "z" axis as well: Believing...Unbelieving. But I think the constitution is neutral on that, too. The framers may have been believers, but the document itself is neutral.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2004, 01:36:41 PM »
the framers were a dukes mixture-TJ probably was a non
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2004, 06:16:17 PM »
Mr. Layton has raised an interesting issue, and the key, I think, to understanding revolves around how one defines one's terms. I don't think one shoulod take the approach, in a discussion such as this of simply saying a "liberal" is defined as, or a "conservative" is defined as whatever.

Mr. Layton suggests that the constitution is a liberal document and that liberalism suggests, as I believe he is pointing out, that "to have liberty one must grant liberty."

So, let us start with the premise that liberalism involves the granting of liberty. How then, by this definition, do today's "liberals" stack up. As has been pointed out already in this thread, these individuals do not fare very well by this standard.

I would like to posit the thought that todays "liberals" are not at all "liberal." I would contend that a better term to describe these individuals would be "antilibertarian."

We must be very careful not to accept an individual's label, as applied by him/herself as definitive of his/her actual philosophical or political bent. If a giraffe were to call itself an elephant, that would not make it an elephant.

Our nation's recent political history is very enlightening in this regard. There was a time, in the not distant past, when certain politicians openly proclaimed themselves as "liberal." this was a time when such a label enjoyed a certain popularity. But, times change, and recently that apellation has lost its political luster to a considerable degree. So, individuals of the political bent that once proclaimed proudly of their liberalism switched to referring to themselves as "progressive" or "centrist" or "moderate." They ran in political terror from the "L" word. Realistically, they had not undergone a philosophical metamorphosis; they had just undergone a name change.

As the Bard said, "What's in a name?"

At the present time, those who most aptly fit the "liberty" criterion are those commonly referred to as "conservative." Once, proclamation of this title would have been the political equivalent of leprosy.

As a nation, we've been for a very long time hung up with labels that, in my opinion, have come to mean very different things from when they were first applied. Their continued use, I believe, has poisoned the well of political discourse to the point that we're recreating the Tower of Babel.

I don't know, perhaps one answer is to adopt more meaningful terms such as "prolibertarian" and "antilibertarian." Not that I think we ever will. No politician would ever want to adopt a label such as "antilibertarian," or "anti" just about anything for that matter, no matter how fitting it might be.

In any event, it does not seem very helpful, or appropriate, to adopt 18th century definitions for terms in use today, especially as those terms, as labels, do not actually describe the behaviors of those who wear them. It is quite clear to me that todays "liberals," whatever they call themselves, are in no way champions of liberty.
Brian
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Nil sine magno labore.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2004, 08:43:22 PM »
Well now, that was better put than my original, at least suomebody understood the intent.
I have been thinkinking that a liberal document can be be interpreted conservatively or liberally. I think that is the criteria we define ourselves within.
It seems to me we, as people, do not understand that politicians are not about statesmanship. They are of course about being elected.
We live and exist to feed our egos and our wants, desires. I was going to say passions, but thinking, not many today have passions so I opted out of that thought. To digress, we are short sighted, ill temperted, wanting tomorrow today. We as people are liberal and not conservative. We are shortchanging our tommows for today, our eternity for our tastebuds for whatever desires we let Satan decieve us into believing will make us happy NOW.
WE have all become what we hate about others, liberal.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD