T/C contender 357 mag long chamber question

[olevern2]

I know some of you have struggled with the long freebore in the contender 357 mag and, from what I read, have dealt with it in various ways, including (1)just shooting it the way it is providing you can develop a load that is half-way accurate with the less than ideal chamber dimensions or (2) running a 357 maximum reamer in to rechamber to the max, then shooting the max cartridge in it, or (3) trimming the max cartridges down to where they will chamber in the long 357 mag chamber and developing loads for the "wildcat" somewhere between the mag and max.  I have decided to try route #3, so I loaded a 357 mag case with a long seated 158 rnfp hard cast bullet to get some sort of idea just how long my chamber was (10 inch bull). I found that the bullet seated to just touch the lands in the 357 mag case left most of the bullet out of the case, clearly I have a too long chamber. The entire grease groove was exposed and LOA was 1.705" with mag brass trimmed to 1.285".
I checked my chamber with 357 max. brass just to see if the used barrel I had purchased had already been reamed to max.  No go.  Not even close.  So, I trimmed the max case down until I could just get the barrel to snap shut on the empty casing (1.419").  When I say just closes, I mean that with the barrel off the frame, I could get it to seat, but it was stickin a bit in the rifling as I had to rap the extractor lightly to get it to release and come out of the chamber.  At least to my way of thinking, need to trim a couple of thou. more, perhaps 1.415", don't need the case constricting the bullet and hindering release when fired, with concurrent pressure spikes. Loaded a dummy with a case length of 1.415" and the above mntioned cast bullet and droppd in wih no problem. 

Several questions,

1.) Any of you more experienced with these barrels see any problems with my soulution?

2.) Any suggestions as to where I should be starting my load development with the 158 and 180 grain cast     bullets?  Mostly shooting at tipover metal plates (discs) at ranges up to 200 yards or pinking at paper at closer ranges. (powder and charge)

If this desn't work out for me, will sell this barrel and purchase a custom barrel with proper chamber dimensions and leade.

Don't want a max really, not frugal on powder for what I do.

[Richard P]

What you have is T/C's answer to high pressure loads, namely cut it off at the knees.  There are barrels out there with almost no throat. These are from around 1983 such as mine.  Aside from selling your barrel and using the proceeds to buy a 357 barrel from another source, about your only option is to cut down ''max'' cases.  This doesnt sound like a lot of fun.  You'd be served better to buy a ''max'' barrel in which you hope not to have the ''Linda'' throat.  Load it down to 357 mag or go the other manufacturer route.  By the way,  are you sure it wont shoot to your satisfaction as it stands ?  rp

[Win 1917]

I'm still learning this stuff myself so somebody with more experience feel free to correct me but I think seating the bullet until the frame just closes may not be the best way to adjust headspace. In that situation I think you would actually be headspacing off the bullet as opposed to the rim which can cause problems.

I suppose if I were doing it I would use an empty fired case and with the extractor removed and trim it until the rim comes in contact with the barrel and chambers easily. Then measure where the rim is in relation to the face of the barrel. Then start seating the bullet deeper until the rim comes back to the same spot. That way the case is fitting properly to the barrel, the bullet's not jammed into the lands, and from there you can accurately measure headspace and determine if you need to do anything to fix it.     

[sbhg]

Have you shot this barrel at all?
I use the Hornady 180 gr. XTP bullet crimped into the lower groove, this way it reduces the freebore somewhat. With imr-4227 and good light I get some 5 shot groups under1" @ 60 yds. w/ open sights.
Your idea does sound reasonable, as long as you have some room for the case to expand to release the bullet. Since the long case would now be in an area that is smaller in dia. that the chamber.
As to the bullet above, what you really need is a bullet w/ a crimp groove lower on the bullet than the regular revolver bullets. I found that the .35 cal. rifle bullets have their crimp grooves lower.
There is data available for 200 gr. + bullets in the .357 mag. thats what you need is a heavy bullet.

http://montanabulletworks.com/page5.html
Scroll down to the .35 cal. list, the bullet below would be a good one to try. I will try some when I run out of XTP's, though it will be a while since Midway had some blems on sale and I bought a bunch.

RCBS (82028)  200  .357 - .359  Flat Nose -   Gas Checked    (HT)  (crimp to nose length=0.505)  $19.70
 
BTW I forgot to mention that the barrel I mentioned above is a factory max., although I do have an old octagon w/ choke mag. barrel wich shoots very well.
I mentioned the heavy bullets because mag. brass is cheaper than max. brass not to mention that it will cost you 100+/- $ to have that barrel rechambered.
 Good Luck.

[Keith L]

I have a 12 inch bull with a soldered on front sight that shoots mags and .38 Special well.  I have never had a reason to question the throat depth.  I bet that not all TC .357 barrels are like you describe.  I have not shot all of them, so I don't know.  Must be all that good clean living...

[olevern2]

To the poster who questioned setting headspace by runnin a case with a bullet in it into the chamber until it just closes, that is not the procedure I followed or outlined.  I trimmed an empty case (Max) until it would just close to find the end of the chamber, then proposed to remove another four thousands so that the case would have room in the chamber to release the bullet.  The bullet I wish to use is a 158 gn. rnfp and the portion of the bullet forward of the crimp groove is not full bullet diameter.  A dummy round assembled with the trimmed max. brass and the aforementioned bullet drops into the chamber easily.  My question is did I allow enough space from the end of the cartridge case and the rather abrupt end of the chamber (four thousands) for bullet release? 
As to the question - did I shoot the barrel wth standard length 357 mags, the answer is no i did not.  I know it might be possible to find a load which will shoot "well enough" with this huge jump to the lands, but experience tells me it is highly unlikely that the bullet I want to shoot (a cast 158 gn. rnfp) properly crimped in the crimp groove of a 357 mag. case will shoot to my standards in this barrel.
I guess before I actually test fire the trimmed down max. brass I should get out the cerrosafe and get a better idea of just what the chamber (and leade) look like.  Iwas hoping that someone else has been there before me and could offer some starting loads somewhere between the mag. and max.  I should think it should be safe to use the maximum published data for the 357 mag. as a starting load for the new length cartridge.

[gman628]

I don't see why your method of thinking won't work for you, I would think you could start load development close to max. loads for .357 mag and go from there.  Now, I personally would not go the route you did, if the barrel didn't shoot well enough for my needs, I would sell if off and put the proceeds towards a custom barrel. 

The only problem I see with only trimming your brass to have .004" is you won't be able to try different bullets that may be a little longer than what you're using and also, usually the difference between max case length and trim to length is .010", so if you're only going to give your cases .003 - .004" to grow, make sure you keep a close eye on it.

Gary

[shot1]

I have a T/C 10" 357 mag barrel and use a load of 13.5 grs H-110 and the Hornady 180 XTP loaded in the top groove and it will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards all day long. I have killed deer out to 107 yards with it with from chest to ham penetration. If I were you I would shoot that barrel to see what it will do. Your cast bullets and the velocities that you will get with the closed breach contender are going to equal big time leading thus poor accuracy. Even one of the lighter 38 special target loads for a revolver will get you over 1000 fps in a contender. Very light revolver start loads for the 357 mag revolver will get you 1400 to 1500 fps with 158 gr bullets in a contender.

Yes I would do the chamber cast for sure. You may have that cut down Max case going up into the throat that is tapered and not actually cut like the chamber. If this is the case it will not allow the case to expand enough to release the bullet properly and cause your pressures to go through the roof.

[Darrell H]

What you are doing with the .357 Mag/Max wildcat sounds like a fun project but it doesn't sound like you are really that into it.  Rather than paying for a rechamber I would sell the barrel and put the funds that you would have spent for the rechamber with it and go with the option below:

If this desn't work out for me, will sell this barrel and purchase a custom barrel with proper chamber dimensions and leade.

I would suggest that you check with MGM.  Often times they have a short blank lying around that they will cut you a deal on.  I got mine for around $200 if memory serves correct; not bad for a custom barrel.  And it is a great shooter! 


Good luck with whatever you decide!

[Richard P]

What is the need of crimping the bullet in a single shot ?   And as for barrel leading, getting the bullet to seal the throat as soon as possible should eliminate leading caused by gasses flowing around the bullet. rp

[snapcrackpop]

Not sure if you guys look at the NEF forum on here, but the .357 Handi rifle is VERY popular and the same issues are discussed in length there... 

The long jump to the lands is not usually a problem in the 357.  I'm getting sub MOA groups (not sure if that's common with the T/Cs) with my 357 Mag (reamed to Max) using mag cases, 140, 158 and 180 XTP bullets, H110 powder and CCI 550 (small pistol mag) primers.

I'm no expert, but I have read that the "crimp" is needed to increase the pressures for better powder burn and more uniform velocities/accuracy.

I would suggest you try shooting that long throat 357 mag "as is" a few times before worrying about the "jump".

[sbhg]

http://www.(censored word).com/store/index.php?cid=120
Check out the link above.
I guess there are certain words that we do not use here
Oh well.

[shot1]

The question was asked, "Why crimp a bullet in a single shot contender?" When you load powders like H-110 and WW 296 you need to crimp the bullet to get a real good burn on the powder and get the pressure up before the bullet leaves the case. The crimp retards the bullet just long enough to accomplish this.

[olevern2]

First, thanks to all who contributed to this discussion.  I do have some 357 mag loads assembled for other guns with the two cast bullets i wish to use, so I will take the advice of many and try out this barrel before moving on.  I really believe it is an exercise in futility, but it will cost little more than some time at the bench and, as we all know, a day at the range is better than most other things we could be doing. Even better, I don't have to leave my property, have my own range right here.  Tomorrow morning I have a former pastor visiting with his two boys, ages 8 and 10, to ride my dirtbikes on my property, I'm sure they will be happy to join me on the range for some informal 22 shooting under dad's supervision while I do the necessary testing (after they tire themselves out riding in the hot sun). If I am not satisfied with the results, will move on to the chamber cast, to confirm with appropriate precision measurment instruments what I see with my naked eye. Looking thru the bore from the chamber end it looks like the chamber ends abruptly with a very short chamfer to the rifling. I will not spend the money on a rechamber as a 357 max is not what I want, so if I can't get this barrel to shoot it's on to a MGM bbl.
BTW, for those who suggested loads with various factory jacketed bullets, I shoot mostly cast, either commercial cast or, when I get my new reloading/casting room set up, hopefully my own cast again (moved recently, new reloading building is up and closed in (36'X60') and I am working on plumbing and electric.

[olevern2]

Well, been a bit busy, but got some testing of the 357 mag. contender barrel today.  I shot it with jacketed bullets first, at 25 yards, and then 50 yards from the bench, bagged, with a 2-6X scope set on 6X.  First load shot about 1/2 inch, 5 shot groups from 25 yards, then several 5/8" groups at 50 yds.  Didn't take it out to 100, creek is up and didn't want to get feet wet walking out to the 100 yd target.  That load was a 146  gn Speer half jacket hollow point with 16.6 gn. H-110 lit by a CCI small pistol mag. primer.  Certainly can't complain about those results.

However, then tried several cast bullet loads developed and loaded for other 357 mags.  First tried 180 gn. hard cast lead (RCBS Sil. G.C.) pushed by 15 gn. Lil Gun. First five rounds clustered into about 7/8 inch at 25 yards.  Moved out to 50 and shot another 5 shot group which grouped just over 2 1/2 inches.  Third attempted group at 50 was 7 inches, looked down barrel which now looked like a sewer line.  Didn't attempt to shoot any further groups as the lead build up looked like it might cause dangerous pressures.

Spent more than an hour cleaning the barrel tonight, pushed out a bunch of "crescents" of lead shaved off in the "leade" and a whole mess of lead smears in the first inch of rifling.

Not my favorite pasttime, cleaning leading, that is.

In any event, That's where I am at present.  Will still pursue the chamber cast when I get time and see if I can safely use shortened 357 max. brass custom fit to the chamber.  Might just keep this barrel and dedicate it for jacketed bullets and purchase another custom one for cast.

It seems it has possibilities with jacketed, perhaps will be a shooter with load development for this particular barrel, as theload usedtoday was tailored to anoher handgun (Ruger three screw Blackhawk)

will update thread when chamber casting available.

[Hank08]

OV2,  I got my 1st .357 contender barrel about 40 yrs. ago.  I was amazed that it shot both .38s and .357s superbly, never checked the lead.  About 25 yrs. ago i got a 10" bull in .357 Max, it will shoot .38s, .357s or .357 max superbly, I have a Ransom rest to test.  My favorite load has been a 200 Saeco Gascheck mold ,(no longer made) but RCBS makes a similar one, over 20 grs. 4227. Never had any leading even shooting this bullet in a .35 Whelen at 2300fps.  Recently I obtsained an old Oct. .357 barrel and decided to make it .357 max for a lightweight hunting gun.  I used a Clymer .357 max reamer and was surprised to see that it has a very short throat and won't chamber my 200 gr. bullet in a max case unless I lower the charge  and seat them deep but shoots them great if I load them in a standard .357 case
despite the jump.  It also shoots .38 spl great as well.  Factory Rem 180 SJHPs shoot under 2" @ 100 at 1720fps. with factory iron sights. Same bullet loaded with 20 gr. 4227 in the max case goes 1665 fps.  All this to say I haven't seen any problem with the throat either way or even the long jump of the .38 or .357 in either throat.  Sounds like the cast bullets your shooting are a little off in the alloy dept.  The bullet needs to be soft enough to expand to seal the bore (with the pressure your load is generating) but not so soft to lead the bore (10 lbs. wheelweights + 1/4 lb. of tin is a good alloy) a gascheck is necessary for velocities over about 1000 fps.  I'd suggest doing a lot of shooting with standard cases and good bullets before going to all the trouble your suggesting.  Good luck whatever you decide.
H08

[lynneil]

If it was my barrel, I would go with #3. I have the same problem with a 14" 7 TC/U barrel. I went to the slightly longer .222 mag brass and trimmed it until it just fit. That was about 3 years and hundreds of reloads ago. Works for me.