Israel puts 4 in the head of a US citizen

[JASmith]

TM7, answered earlier.

So let me see if I understand some of beerbellys logic; if a man threatens to rape & kill your family, brings a bunch of his buddies with him, armed, and he's standing on your doorstep ... and you have no police to call ... you'd wait to start firing until he knocked the door down? Just trying to make sure I know what Israel did wrong.

If one were in California, you'd have to wait until the door was broken down, the toads entered the house, and to be convinced you don't have a back door or window to retreat from. 

Even so, the California test for use of lethal force in self-defense would likely have been satisfied...

[billy_56081]

Beerbelly I think your letting your bias gat in the way of facts. Yes there were T54/55s but also T62s. In the gulf war the elite soldiers used T72s and T80s. I know of one case where an M1 penetrated a 10 foot dirt berm and 2 T72s with one round.

Please stop letting your bias get in the way of the truth.

[beerbelly]

Your truth not mine. I do not under stand this Judeo-Christian  thing at all. The Jews are not Christians. They have no use for Christians other than what they can use you for.
  They still remember the inquisitions. In case you don't know the heretics the Catholics we converting or killing were Jews. They still have not forgiven you Christians for that little deal. They would be trying to do the same to you they are doing to the rag heads, except they need the christen fools to back their play.
                            Beerbelly

[teamnelson]

beerbelly, leave the religion thing out for bit. How does one come to possess land? Buy it or fight for it. Clearly in American history we did both, and at the individual level, most of the frontiersman, settlers, staked claims and fought to defend them, built on it, improved it. However America came to be, the fact is it is ours and we defend it. There are those that claim we have no right to it, but the fact is we have it. Again, leave God out of the dialogue, how is Israel different?

[beerbelly]

Yes our frontiersmen took the land away from the Indians. But they did it with out the help of the UN or some other country paying for their arms, as we are doing for the Israelis. Frankly the folks that had been living there for hundreds of years, were ganged up on by a large number of countries.
   I think hoping to get rid of the Jews in their land. After all they have never gotten along with anyone in any country in the world where they have migrated to.
And when things are not going their way, they scream HOLOCOST! We are a mistreated people. BS they are the one's that will not get along. They got their country, but that was not good enough. They had to start expanding and taking more land from the rag heads! They will never be satisfied until they have exterminated the rag heads and get control of all that oil.
                                        Beerbelly

[teamnelson]

TM7, bottom of page 4.

TM7, I'm going to limit my supposition to the operation based on the facts available.

Now I'll ask you, if they thought the Ari Marava had weapons, was armed, had wmd, or dangerous and unsavory characters on board...wouldn't they have disabled the ship to keep it away from israeli shores and to make it dead in the water?  And so then to proceed with more  cautious surveilance and a landing after a period of attrition..?? Or a daylight landing with mass media prsent?  And that they would have milked every last drop of propaganda out of such a 'terror' ship??

You're correct, they did not suspect anything, so they did not disable the ship. You're correct, had they thought that they would have approached more cautiously, media support, all those things. According to the IDF report, they boarded the AM because it did not adhere to the blockade and refused to change course [SOP for coastal defense the world over]. They went in at night because that's when the AM broke the blockade, so the IDF was responding not initiating. They went in light because they did not anticipate armed agressive resistance. So your questions only underscore the fact that the IDF went by the book, responded to a situation. Not been avoiding - been reading up on CQB; this sounds like the after action of every other time an unit was dropped into a hostile environment and had to shoot their way out, to include multiple gunshot wounds from close distance.

As for the 2 shots fired at distance, do you have forensic evidence placing the timing of the shots prior to boarding? Or were these supporting shots taken while the IDF on board were engaged? That little detail right there will go a long way towards determining the chronology of events.

You're question was not what I would do; your question is why did they not do it differently? My answer was they did an inspection boarding by the book given the perceived threat. To accept my statement, you would have to remove the filter that this was a "raid." Boarding a ship running a blockade that refuses to alter course does not constitue a "raid"; our Coast Guard routinely boards ships that do not comply, for example, and they will fire if presented with a life threatening situation. A raid on the other hand would have resulted in no witnesses left, and the hull of AM resting on the bottom of the Med. That this went kinetic in a haphazard manner is the most glaring evidence that this was not a raid. Do you have the forensics on the two shots taken at distance for the timing? The USCG will fire from deck once they perceive their boarding party is in peril; I would assume the IDF would do the same.

If you're asking me how I would've conducted a "raid" ... versus boarding a ship failing to comply to a blockade ... I wouldn't. A raid is visible, and inappropriate to the task. If I felt the AM was a threat, and I wanted it neutralized, I would approach it in such a way as to discredit the movement while removing the threat of the ship. As you've stated, they evidently did not feel threatened so there was no need for offensive operations.

[teamnelson]

TM7, by all accounts the IDF did not board them for suspicion of "commandeering war supplies." They boarded them for failing to comply with a blockade ... that's the fork in the road for you and me. All other assumptions are predicated on why you think they boarded.

You've not given me any forensic evidence that the 2 shots preceded the boarding; could they not have occurred after hostilities began? Does the autopsy corroborate the time, distance, and angle of fire matching the witnesses claim? I've not read that. Without it you can't prove either way.

The autopsy shows shots to the back of the head, but no powder burns at the entry point, and in conjunction with other shots on the front of the bodies as well. In no battle damage assessment would that be sufficient to declare an "execution." Were the bodies found on their faces, with zipties on their wrists, brass casings 2-3 feet behind their shoes, lying together? Were the bullet holes uniform, i.e. placed in a similar location indicating controlled fire. What is the evidence that makes this an "execution" and not just a shootout? Read a BDA from a shootout, or watch the history channel on any of the wars we fought with firearms - lots of folks with wounds in the back of their head. Some while turning away having just been shot in the front.

Give me the corroborating evidence, and I'll buy it. I stated up front, I'm only discussing the operation, not the validity of the blockade. Just the what happened. Both sides have motive to lie to some degree, so to determine what happened you have to set motive aside and disbelieve everybody. I've done critical incident stress debriefings with teams that were in close quarters kinetic engagements, and so far all the data I've seen from both sides, this was a terrible event, that no one should feel good about.

[billy_56081]

Your filter is that there was a legal blockade, which there is not in the eyes of the international community and the UN.

..TM7
. 

TM so now are you in support of the UN as a regulatory body over a sovereign nation? Methinks I am seeing you be a bit hipocritical in your attemp to support your blind hatred of Jews. I don't think I am the only one that has noticed this either.

[powderman]

The stoppage of declared humanitarian civilian ships is another matter altogether.tm


Problem is is the ones doing the declaring, avowed terrorist supporters and muslims, taught to lie by their dead false prophet mohamed. The word of a muslim to a Jew or Christian is worthless. The Godless ones got what they asked for and deserved. POWDERMAN. 

[jimster]

in the eyes of the international community and the UN.

The UN is corrupt and everyone knows it, what they think or say should mean nothing. After what they have been caught doing they are irrelevant.
The international community, whoever they are must be irrelevant as well.  Who cares what any of them think.

I have no idea what happened after the ship got boarded, or any idea of how the events went down, but I have a pretty good idea whoever decided to not comply with the blockade was not using good judgement. I'm just using plain old logic here.
Ya ask for trouble your going to get it. These are tough times, you'd think people would have some brains when traveling through places like that.  

If Israel says there is a blockade, there is one, same as if they say their capital is Jerusalem, that's where it is. Doesn't matter what the corrupt UN says, they are totally irrelevant.

[teamnelson]

jimster, just took a big blank out of your post is all.

On the subject, despite initial reports, it looks like Obama opted to back Israel's investigation instead of joining the UN push for its own investigation.

[jimster]

Well TN, that was a good move on Obama's part.  I agree Israel needs to investigate as well.

I was just kind of saying, there are lot's of places these days were you need to us common sense when traveling around.
If your headed through a check point in Iraq, it's just not a good time to bend over and scratch your foot. You might wind up with an M9 in your forehead, even though a great case could be made anyone has the right to scratch their foot. Blockades and checkpoints are set up for a reason, I think it makes good conversation to talk about if it's right or not, but the bottom line is, they are there and you deal with them or your going to have trouble.  I don't understand why this ship avoided or broke the blockade.  Even the Obama administration have been warning Gaza activists to avoid trouble and not break the blockade.
Now to make matters worse, you have masked Hamas members holding up Turkish flags taking part in all this, stirring the pot.  These are turning into more of a challenge to Israel than any humanitarian effort it seems.  If they were worried about getting supplies to the needy they would just unload at Ashdod and get it done.  There is more to the agenda than humanitarian efforts it seems.

[Dee]

I don't much care for the UN either as it extends toward future world government. But having disdain for the UN is like having disdain for the US of A, because we invented it, we fund it to 52% (Japan another 20% or so), we host it on our soil, we permantly sit on the security council, we use violations of UN resolutions to go to war, we use UN troops in the mix, and so forth and so on.  It is actually an arm of the US policy making apparachis and subvert to true American sovereignty for sure....but oh so useful for world nwo aspirations.

Well TM7, I am in total agreement with you on your above statement, and analogy. That outta scare ya.

Having Israel investigate it's own brutality, and throw in the Goldstone Report, is like having criminals prosectue and convict themselves....or BP investigate what went wrong....a total waste of time and oxygen.

I am in total disagreement with you on this one. Israel has the right to keep out instigators and suppliers of terror, just as we SHOULD BE DOING, on our own borders, and in our own ports, but aren't.

Make no mistake BHO is 100% behind israel whatever they do, dispite appearances otherwise. Afterall, why would he/we have a 'former' IDF mossad guy running our country.

With this one, I once again disagree, as Mr. Obama is about as anti-Israel as yourself, and beerbelly.

Until we come up with a better way of looking at these kinds of crimes of nation, and Crimes and Wars against God, we are kinda stuck with current instituions.  Although, I'm all in favor of new investigative bodies being assembled right now. But granting unconditional 'roque' status to a provacautive country is not the way to go.  Who knows...maybe we will see so-called 'blockades' of israel in the future to keep US war supplies out of there.!

On this issue I think we need LESS institutions looking into OTHER COUNTRIES BUSINESS, and more minding our own business. I am not in favor of other countries investigating our business, and "it is contradictory to claim a want for sovereignty", while organizing NWO organizations to monitor evertyone.
 

[billy_56081]

you are a dilly you "don't care much for the UN", but when it fits your antisemetic views you want it to be a governing body. Keep up the laughs, I'm thinking Jamaldog will be your warm up act at the BBQ.

[ironglow]

TM:
  Are you still into accepting those mythological stories such as.. Holy Blood, Holy Grail..  and ..The Davinci Code..as having some basis in fact

IG....Nope. And never have.  Just need to look at undistorted Bible without Scofield the deceiver thrown in and the zio editorializing;;;actually quite clear. Actually, beerbelly has the zio jewish mind pretty well figured, but can't lump all in that mindset like you, IG et al, lump all muzzies in a hate mantra.  The zios and most jews ain't got no need for JC at all (never did, duh!)...cramps their style.  Remember I'm married to a jewish women, I get to know jewish thinking firsthand. My wife has moved on to more life giving and fruitful cosmology. Her parents have disdain for your zio Talmudist which you bow to and adulate in building an alter called israel....they think they are evil doers and subverting the jewish faith...so do I. I get less grief discussing man, God, and war with my in-laws then I do here discussing with rabid so-called judaeo-christian zioniks. Go figure.  Clearly, the Bible precludes any 'chosen' race being called 'chosen', and clearly it precludes jews from re-entering Palestine; and it definitely does not instruct, endorse, or elicit Christians to kill Palestinians (your Philistines) for the crime of being born a Palestinian.  How judaeo-christians (actually an oxymoronic term) get these zionist ideas is an interesting study however.  My advice for you et al is to get away from 501(c) mega churches and find the 'narrow gate'.  You'll be much better off and so will the planet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


TNel...could you please direct me to the posts # where you answered those questions and how you, a professional mil guy, would conduct the 'inspection' raid...Sorry, what's that post #...? Oh, btw TNel....the AGES have changed if you haven't noticed.



...TM7

  So your wife has deserted her heritage..I don't know or care about your personal iife, but I am well aware there are apostates in both Judaism and Christianity...but unlike Islam, "kill orders" are never issued..

[blind ear]

BeerBelly, the judaeo-christian thing. You hardley ever say anything that I have as blunt an attitude about as you do but that is one openion that I have always had also. eddiegjr

[ironglow]

 "proper Biblical interpretation"..??  

.

  "proper Biblical interpretation"..??   

Yep...and your's is zionized and doesn't pass muster and is anti-life and anti Logos.

For example in practice....you can't claim being anti-abortion here...then praise and celebrate the death genocide of muzzie children elsewhere.....And you can't be a sunday Christian and then go back to supporting killers.  Christianity doesn't work that way. No IG...forget it, there's no excuse.
By the way, ask a moslem what he thinks of abortion someday....then ask a jew.


...TM7
.

  TM:
      I'm calling you on it ! Show the specific post where I called for killing Muslim children... As a matter of fact, I have been a vehement defender of muslim children, moreso than some Muslims !  i have condemned the "honor-killing' of muslim teenagers and using children 16 and younger, sometimes as young as 4 or 5 for human bombs. I also condemned the use of the mentally retarded as bombs also. I also condemned the execution of women ..based upon rumors of infidelity. I don't even endorse the mistreatment of women for having been raped !
   Soooo.show me specifics..or eat crow..

[billy_56081]

IG it is just that TM is getting more and more desperate in his support of his antisemetic views. He is grasping at straws and even going against what he has said previously.

[powderman]

Remember I'm married to a jewish women, I get to know jewish thinking firsthand.

I don't believe it. I read   some of your hate Israel garbage to a Jewish friend of mine and told her you said your wife was Jewish. Man, she came unglued. She flat out called you a liar and said that if your wife was was really Jewish that she'd have slit your throat in your sleep years ago. She said it, not me. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

Hey beer belly. Can you identify the tanks in this picture?

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk225/b_mckagan/Yom_Kippur_War_large.jpg

How about this one? It has a caption. http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3082&stc=1&d=1163910449

Here beerbelly if you want to see a list of weapons used by each side. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Here is a video if you cannot take looking at the pics.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzw2ff7b6zU&feature=related
Note the taking on of T55 and T62 with upgunned WW2 Shermans. The truth is kinda hard to swallow aint it?

I do have to say I was wrong about the mig 25 it arrived in the middle east shortly after the war. They were using Mig 21 and SU7. While Israel had thos modern A4 and F4 aircraft.

Read if you want, but maybe your hate filter won't allow you to.

[billy_56081]

TM once again you post one of your sourceless urban myths just to prop up your hatred of Jews. How about you show some sources and coroberation of that blather you just posted. All I can find on this story you are telling is it is considered and urban myth cut and paste story that goes around and around. Desperate!

[Dee]

TM7, the 1973 Yom Kippur war is historical fact on whom invaded whom. The fact that the Palestinians are a bunch of rabble rouse-rs that have been expelled from their own countries (Egypt and others) is also historical fact. Arafat was a trouble making, double dealing queer that no one trusted. I doubt you will ever get any where with this bunch, as you really don't have a leg to stand on in defending the Muslim. Granted we should exit their countries and let them go back to killing each other, but your defense of Islam and it's doctrine contradict it's teaching.
Some here are as dogmatic at heckling you, as you are defending Islam. When one finds himself in a hole, he should stop digging. Islam is, what it is.

[powderman]

HEH, tm, you sure can spin a yarn, and I recon your puter screen reads different from mine concerning IRONGLOWS posts. Gotta admit, you are entertaining at times. 

[BBF]

BB hates everyone equally. It's the semi-American way.

No False Flag Attacks from him or beating around the bush either

[BBF]

On the subject, despite initial reports, it looks like Obama opted to back Israel's investigation instead of joining the UN push for its own investigation.

Considering the dual citizenship of a number on individuals in his Cabinet, is this a surprise?? 

[BBF]

.......................  Who knows...maybe we will see so-called 'blockades' of israel in the future to keep US war supplies out of there.!

...TM7  

Which would be declared "Illegal" in a matter of hours or minutes and Uncle "Saps" Navy instructed to break it yesterday.

[Dee]

.......................  Who knows...maybe we will see so-called 'blockades' of israel in the future to keep US war supplies out of there.!

...TM7  

Which would be declared "Illegal" in a matter of hours or minutes and Uncle "Saps" Navy instructed to break it yesterday.

By Uncle "Saps" Navy,  I take it you mean "Uncle Sam's" Navy.   Well I'll tell ya BBF (BigBlowhardFlake), why don't ya first time ya see one of Uncle Sam's Sailors run that by him, and see what he looks from the ground while he's standing on your throat? Your a "trolling idiot", and GB should ban you from this site. I suspect your avatar is actually a studio portrait of yourself. It certainly fits you.

[billy_56081]

I would really like to see BBF run that by one of our fine sailors. Stay in Canada BBF.

[ironglow]

  ...But if he can't find a sailor....A Marine or Army paratrooper would do as well.    have at it BBF...

[BBF]

Are you dumb enough not to realizeit was the Govt, the same bunch you and other have been bitchin and screaming about for years, I was calling Sap?? Not the guys in Uniform.


PS . After a night of contemplation I came to the conclusion that I broke my own rule on attacking someone regardless of provocation.