Temp Carriage

[Jax]

I have been looking for the right parts to make my field carriage.  So I made this temp carriage today so I can shoot my cannon.  18 in barrel, 10 inch wheels. 

If anyone knows where I can get 16-18 wooden wheels, and an elevation screw let me know.

[Double D]

Look to the link list for wheels, plenty of wheel makers listed there.  Check withthe sponsor about an elevator

[GGaskill]

Look in the Sponsors and links list in the stickies.

[Cat Whisperer]

Saw a couple of sets of iron wheels of that size in a farmer's junk pile out in S.D. last week.
 

[thelionspaw]

It may be an optical illusion but from the apparent size of the aperture in the cheek, the trunnion does not appear to be large enough for the barrel. What is the diameter of the trunnion and what is the bore diameter? How is the union made between the trunnion and the barrel? 

There should be alot of questions and welcomes forthcoming. Here is mine......Welcome!  It's nice to see some young blood signing up.

Richard "almost the oldest"

[Jax]

It may be an optical illusion but from the apparent size of the aperture in the cheek, the trunnion does not appear to be large enough for the barrel. What is the diameter of the trunnion and what is the bore diameter? How is the union made between the trunnion and the barrel? 

There should be alot of questions and welcomes forthcoming. Here is mine......Welcome!  It's nice to see some young blood signing up.

Richard "almost the oldest"

Thanks for the welcome.  i have been looking for a forum like this for a while.

The trunnion are .5 in interference mounted.  For the pictured carriage, I just drilled them into the wood, instead of the clamps.  let me know if that will be a problem before I shoot it 

Im still new to black powder cannon hobby, so I have many things to learn.  I hope to get a larger cannon as time goes on. 

Thanks
Justin

[Double D]

I think we are having some problems with perspective.  Can you give us some measurements and show us a picture with an object so we can see how big you gun is?  It's kind of a tradition here, started at the suggestion of st of Blaster Bob , to post pictures with a powder can to give scale.  Any common item will work how ever, soda can works just fine.

[Jax]

Ok, I hope these help.

[Double D]

That Dr. Pepper can makes it look bigger than with out.

Whats you bore diameter?

The rule of thumb for trunnions is that they should be the same diameter as length as the bore.  Since the are only interference fit you might want to pull them and make them heavier and solder them in place.

That is pretty big gun you have built there and with the recoil forces it will bend and pull  those trunnion out if they are not larger and in with a strong fit.

[Jax]

Bore is 1 1/16 inches.

[thelionspaw]

You can probably kiss those trunnions good-bye with all of that cannon's oomph!

[dan610324]

I would say that its much more serious than that

I just cheked the diameter of the barrel in the chamber area ,
just in front of the second reinforcement ring from the breech the diameter is less than 2 1/4 "

with a bore of 1 1/16" that gives a wall thickness of just slightly more than 1/2"

ok I used my calipper on the enlarged photo , that shouldnt be done as its shadows there that complicates the messure taking .
but at least it gives an rough idea of the proportions
that gives an wall thickness of roughly 40% of the recomendations
in an probably unknown brass alloy

some brass alloys are very hard  BUT ALSO EXTREMELY BRITTLE
ok there are also brass alloys better suited for cannon building
but none of them that good that you could use those ratios
I dont want to fire that pipe bomb

ok Jax you made an mistake , but please dont let it be a deadly mistake
either cut it in pieces and throw them away or put in a steel liner to reduce the bore to 5/8" - 3/4"or close to that
if you put in a liner you can change the trunnions to the same diameter as the bore .
then you got a safe and beautiful barrel

the rule of thumb is that the walls surrounding the powder chamber should be equal to the bore or larger .
it have actually happened that "cannons" with similar proportions as yours but made from steel have exploded and killed people that was on a "safe" distance from the cannon

cannons is fun if you takes it seriously and always thinks safety first

[seacoastartillery]

     Mike and I crunched the numbers on the bore dia. to O.D. dia. in the chamber area also.  We confirm Dan's numbers essentially coming out with 2.25" immediately forward of the 2nd astragal/fillet on the breech end.  The resulting wall thickness of .594" is Dangerously thin and we would never fire anything with these dims., certainly not a tube made of cast iron or brass.  It is real easy to overload these 1.062" bore dia. guns; we have made several of this size, so we know.  Casual loading practices, by a subsequent owner, which may put Dangerous Overloads of one and a half or two oz. of 2F or 3F BP down the spout could lead to disastrous results including personal injury or worse to the gunner and bystanders.

     In the history of United States ordnance, we had a class of long, slender cannon called "Walking Stick" guns. They were light, quickly and easily transported, looked kool and were deadly.  The field artillery crews who shot them found out how deadly they were, unfortunately, the hard way!  Anecdotal stories we have read about them conveyed the fact that they blew up unpredictably.  Thin metal and even normal normal powder charges can prove extremely dangerous.

     If this were our tube, we would make a nice mantle-piece display gun out of it, after filling the bore 3/4 with a close fitting steel rod epoxied in, and get a piece of 1018 steel to fashion into a shooting cannon with proper dims.

     This data is provided exclusively for your safety; we have no other motive here at all.

Good luck on any future build that you may decide to do.

Mike and Tracy

[barefiel76]

To answer your wheel question. There is a couple of threads on here discussing carriage wheels. Also, Lowe's or Home Depot have round table tops (12", 18", 24") that could be fashioned into solid wheels. Let some folks on here know what type of carriage you have in mind.

Also, please consider what they are telling you about the wall thickness. This is a fun hobby if done safely. These guys know what they are talking about.

[Jax]

Thanks for a the comments.  The guy I bought this cannon from has built this same one for a while and has sold many with no issues with them. 

That being said, I understand the concern, and this is no joking matter either, BUT could this not be just used for a salute cannon?  Start with small amounts of BP to test things.  I just measured the powder chamber wall, and its 15/16 in thick.  I did have thoughts of loading a ball in this guy, but after all the comments, I think thats out of the picture.  I guess I will have to save some more $$$ and buy a bigger scale from one of you guys  

[Double D]

Thanks for a the comments.  The guy I bought this cannon from has built this same one for a while and has sold many with no issues with them.  

That being said, I understand the concern, and this is no joking matter either, BUT could this not be just used for a salute cannon?  Start with small amounts of BP to test things.  I just measured the powder chamber wall, and its 15/16 in thick.  I did have thoughts of loading a ball in this guy, but after all the comments, I think thats out of the picture.  I guess I will have to save some more $$$ and buy a bigger scale from one of you guys  

First let me say we don't tell people these guns are unsafe so they will buy from our sponsors.  We tell people these are unsafe because, well they are unsafe.  Any cannon accidents reflects on all us negatively.

Just because someone makes these things and has had no issues doesn't make them safe. FWIW worth do you really think the maker would tell you if there were problems. I have not run across this pattern before, and I don't think I have seen it here for sure.

My first impression when I saw this cannon was that it was your first time build.  There are things about it that are amateurish, certainly not the work of a knowledgeable cannon maker.  The Trunnions foremost.  Bore size of course and the size of the knob. Not a bad first time build otherwise if this items were fixed.

A salute cannon requires the firing of black powder.  In order make a loud salute, you have to have pressure.  The walls of this gun are too thin and made of an unknown brass material.  The only safe thing to do do with this is plug it or destroy it.

You now know it is not safe, but the next owner may not.  So you need to protect yourself from that person.  

If I had this gun, I would cut it up into small pieces and sell it for scrap.

Before you spend your hard earned money ask questions.  I would hope you will look to our sponsors first for a cannon, but also look at the link list for other suppliers.  If you see something you like, let us know, we will look at the website and help you ask the right questions, to get a safe and sound cannon.

One other thing I might warn you about, these things can be addictive.  Once you get one, you will want another...and they will seem to breed...

[dan610324]

if you buy a cannon from any of the sponsors or not doesnt matter for me as long as you got a cannon safe to shoot . so thats not the reason to why I tell you this .
the only reason is that Im concerned about you and your family when you are shooting, and I hope that you not are going to fire that piece without a liner in it .

the accident I talked about happened on the 4th of july 2 or 3 years ago  WITH A BLANK LOAD
If I remember the numbers correct the little boy who was killed was standing approximately 30 yards away

even blank loads generates a high pressure in the barrel , the boom is directly proportional to the pressure
what you hear as a boom when a cannon is fired is the pressure wave from when the pressure is released from the barrel .
so with a low pressure in the barrel a very low boom , and I suppose that wouldnt satisfy you .

you said that it had a wall thickness of 15/16" , did you really mean that each wall is 15/16" or is the combined wall thickness for both the walls 15/16" ??

to have a 15/16" wall thickness the outer diameter of the barrel should have approximately 3" diameter in front of the second reinforcement ring , when I checked the diameter on your photo I got it to less than 2 1/4"
please tell me the correct diameter , I hope that I didnt do any mistake when I messured on that photo .
but as mike and tracy confirmed my calculations I think Im close to the truth

by my calculations 15/16 is approximately the combined thickness of both walls, remember that there are 2 walls surrounding the chamber .
each wall should be the same thickness as the bore diameter or thicker to be considered safe to shoot .

so even with a 15/16" wall thickness it would be better  BUT STILL NOT GOOD , to be considered safe to shoot you need an 3" outer diameter or slightly over that just in front of the second reinfocement ring .

the guy who sold it told you that he hadnt had any problem with them , thats probably true .
I would guess that he havent been in the cannon making business for any long period yet and havent sold enough barrels to have the first of them to blow up yet as not anyone here seem to have seen any of this barrels before .

BUT IT WILL MOST PROBABLY COME SOONER OR LATER .

that design could hold together for 10 or maybe several hundred shots before it burst as a grenade .
its the pressure peak from the exploading powder that hammer the inside of the barrel that will make it harder and more brittle for each shot .
so in the end it will burst without any warning

take a soft piece of copper and hammer it flat on an anvil and try to bend it , then you will feel the difference in resistance between the cold forged part and the original soft copper .
thats exactly the same as whats happening with a copper alloy barrel when shooting with it .

if you still got any posibility to contact the guy who made the barrel please contact him and tell him to come here and read this tread , hopefully he will become a member and stay here and learn a little more about cannon safety . he will most probably be sued for millions of dollars when someone will be injured or killed by any of his barrels .

as DD said he is probably new to this as he made such an small diameter on the trunnions to such an large bore diameter and the cascable diameter is also way to small

[dan610324]

I just did another check of dimension on your barrel , on the point where it got its smallest diameter just behind the muzzle reinforcement it is approximately 1 5/8" in diameter .
in my opinion it should be 2 1/8" , so its 1/2" too small in diameter there also .

a good rule of thumb is 2 times the bore diameter on the barrels smallest diameter and 3 times the bore in the other end

you can still save the barrel if you have someone to make and install a steel liner in it
49/64 ( 0,765625" )  would be a suitable bore diameter to shoot a 3/4" ball
then you are very close to the 1/40th clearance between ball and bore diameters (called windage)
with a 49/64" bore you could use either fg or cannon grade powder

I know it may sound silly that a liner with just 5/32" extra wall thickness may make that large difference
but it both reduce the bore diameter and add thickness to the walls so the proportions will be very different

please remember that those numbers are just approximate , I live in sweden and got hughe problems to think in both fractional and decimal inch . so please check them carefully before you do anything else .
I think they are correct but can never be sure when I must think in fractions 

at the same time I would change the trunnions to shrink fit 3/4" diameter
drill and ream a 3/4" hole all the way through the barrel and shrink fit a slightly over sized bar into the hole.
then drill the bar away that crosses the bore and ream it again for the liner

then you have something that not only looks good but also is safe to shoot
I think that would be the best solution on the problem ,
its a pity to cut such an beautiful barrel into pieces and throw them away .
and not to mention the financial lost

Im sure that you got a friend or neighbor who could help you with this , if not start looking in the sponsor list and ask around for a good price .

[wolff]

Personally, I don't mind the squishy tires - I live in the desert - they'll soak up the jarring from rocks and chuckholes!  True, a modern tube profile would be more visually appealing to purists; but I'd hate wheeling around a pretty carriage:  I'd feel every jolt and bounce.

my .02

wolff