"...will load an empty shell" Why do I care?

[ButlerFord45]

I almost got it all in the subject line!   I've heard for years people bragging that their 1911 would load an empty case out of their magazine.  Ok, so what? Being as gulible as I normally am, I've tried it numerous times in the past and mine will do it on demand.  Again, so what?  What's the significance of being able to load an empty shell case from an otherwise loaded magazine?  What is it I'm missing here?

[Empty Quiver]

Have you priced loaded ones lately? Cheaper than a suppressor as well and no paperwork!

 It is supposed to say something to the reliability of the weapon. That just leaves about fifty other reliability issues which must be proven I suppose.

I tried that crap with my SIG, it wouldn't load an empty, so now I'm stuck buying the loaded ammo.

[buck460XVR]

I believe it has to do with the ability of the gun to feed wadcutters as they basically resemble an empty cartridge. This would be a concern of those that shoot wadcutters.

[1911crazy]

Dam i'm happy if my 1911's load the FMJ ball ammo flawlessly......

Hold on there is a point thats missed here.  If you can load an empty case that means the centerline from the mag to the centerline in the bore in the chamber is a close match.  Like perfect.....

Why should you care???  In any gun that has this perfect alignment means less wear on the chamber opening.  Plus it will load miliseconds faster with regular rounds too because of the centerline of both parts being a perfect match or closer than it normally is. Lets not forget the wear on the frame rails in different directions.  There are unseen forces too that can slow it down on loading too.

Being a machine builder and a engineering lead tech in the r&d lab i look at things from both sides of the fence now as an engineer and a mechanic.  

[pneuby]

If your pistol loads a stubby case, with a sharp edge, which likely has some degree of 'out-of-round' (due to having been ejected and hitting the deck)...then....

It's probably a good bet that it won't have feeding issues due to the mag, or mag-to-chamber alignment.
That said, there are many great pistols that can't perform this feat, yet cycle with aplomb on actual loaded ammo. 

[ButlerFord45]

Have you priced loaded ones lately? Cheaper than a suppressor as well and no paperwork!

 It is supposed to say something to the reliability of the weapon. That just leaves about fifty other reliability issues which must be proven I suppose.

I tried that crap with my SIG, it wouldn't load an empty, so now I'm stuck buying the loaded ammo.

I knew there had to be a good reason, I guess I just couldn't see the forest for the trees!!  I thank you for showing me the light!!   

[ButlerFord45]

I believe it has to do with the ability of the gun to feed wadcutters as they basically resemble an empty cartridge. This would be a concern of those that shoot wadcutters.

I knew there had to be a legitimate reason but for the life of me, I couldn't think of what it might be.  Thanks

[ButlerFord45]

Thanks folks, I appreciate your time, wisdom and willingness to share them both.

[mcwoodduck]

Now you can have a buddy do a skip drill.  He loads your mags for you and puts an empty in one or more of your mags at diffiernt loactions.
In a skip drill with a revolver you pop an empty in a chamber and it shows you if you are flinching.
With an auto it will not only show you if you are flinching but you get to do a clear the chamber with out having to find the snap caps that cost $ at the end of the training session.  While empties are worth something I find I loose about 1% a year.

[Mikey]

ButlerFord45:  If your 1911 will strip a empty case from the magazine and into the chamber it means that your pistol is reliable and should function as designed on the battlefield.  HTH. 

[Dee]

I almost got it all in the subject line!   I've heard for years people bragging that their 1911 would load an empty case out of their magazine.  Ok, so what? Being as gulible as I normally am, I've tried it numerous times in the past and mine will do it on demand.  Again, so what?  What's the significance of being able to load an empty shell case from an otherwise loaded magazine?  What is it I'm missing here?

Butler, you already have your answer, but when folks brought1911s to me for reliability tuneups they would ask how reliable would the pistol be. I told them if it didn't feed empty brass on it's own they didn't have to pay for the tune up. I always got paid. If it will feed empty brass it will feed any hollow points, including the old flying ash trays, and semi-wadcutters. There is far more to a reliability tune up than throating a barrel and polishin a feed ramp.

[jhm]

     And all this time it was to remove a mighty weight off your mind as to being sued for a unlawful shooting,   That will let me sleep better tonight.   Jim

[ButlerFord45]

JOKES!!!  Everybody's got JOKES!!  Maybe I should offer a magazine full of empties for the best punchline!   

[Dee]

Butler, your offer would most likely make as much sense as some of the jokes wouldn't it?

[ButlerFord45]

Yeah, Dee, I thought it was pretty much an appropriate prize for the contest.

[bubbinator]

My background is LEO. Have carried multiple calibers/makes / models over 42 yrs. To the best of my recollection over the yrs. as a reloader the "Feeds empty cases" was  search for a reliable gun that would shoot the new hollow point bullets coming on the market.  In the "day"  1911s were not as reliable as now, and many would not feed hollow points as reliably as ball ammo.  Remeber all the 45 cal hole VS 9mm expansion articles"? Back then a good 1911 would feed empty brass.  Then the Sig P220 came along and it fed empty brass to the point it was boring! Bullet design today has all but eliminated that issue.

[Dee]

You are correct bubbinator. The major issue back then, but not the only issue, was the Colt Series 70 1911s came with an unthroated barrel. Throat the barrel, polish the ramp, tune the extractor, and with a good magazine, much of the problems in feeding disappeared.
The truth of the matter was, and is, that the real advantage of the 1911 was the single action "sear set", and the caliber. It was the fastest in the business, and although the Browning Hi-Power was a stable mate in the action dept. and more reliable it was in a "minor caliber".
There are MANY more reliable actions today than the 1911, and although Glock is one I could never get fond of, it is FAR AND AWAY a more reliable pistol, and a higher round capacity one also.

[Mikey]

I just used to love the older comparisons:  45 ball vs the newest 9mm hp that had hit the market; and the old reliable 38 spl lswc vs the newest 9mm hps, or the 32 acp hps vs 380s, or even better is the 327 vs the 357 - now that's a classic. 

I rememeber the effect of the plain jane 230 gn 45 ball on 6' tall 230 lb hard muscled Chinese advisors to the NVA and the VC.  Don't get confused here - the average Chinese Spetznaz and advisor type was over 6' and a hard man to try and put down but the 45 would do it.  I do not recall ever firing just one shot - most often it was 2 or more until I was sure I had hit him and he was going down.  I do not recall giving just one bullet the chance to work - we never took that kind of chance.  And since the 45 worked as well as it did, many of us saw little need to get a reliable pistol to be more reliable when it didn't have any problems in the first place. 

If you have a 1911 that will feed a empty case then load the mag with ball ammo and don't worry about trying to shoot a empty case....................

[1911crazy]

No two guns are alike so not every mag is interchangable into every gun.  I found even the same manufacturers gun to be different too.  No two V8 racing engines run the same too.  This is why stripper clips were used for all these many years even when the gun has a mag they still used a stripper clip.  They know that different mags and guns aren't alike.

I had 6 egyptian hakims in 8mm mauser.  The orginal mags wouldn't lock up or interchange in each rifle.  There is a reason why they used stripper clips.  Some mags would fit in the wood stock.

When i check a new mag in a rifle i look for it going into the center of the chamber.  New mags are a PIA sometimes too.  I got every larger capacity sks mag to function properly.

My point is if two rifles or multiple rifles can be different why not pistols too?

[bubbinator]

To EmptyQuiver-  If your Sig was not feeding empty brass something is wrong with it.  As stated in my earlier post, as an LEO Instructor we loaded the mags for the officers with 3-4 empty cases per mag to detect problems with our poorer shooters. If they jerked the trigger on an empty case, we found part of their problem(s). We did this with all agents regularly during the twice a year combat/tactical courses. The other 2 times we shot was regular qualification.  I dealt with 100+ Sig P-220s over a 7 yr. period and never once did one fail to feed an empty case. That equates to thousands of rounds thru the guns, with varied levels of maintenance.  Sig will fix your gun if it won't do this.  Good luck & take care. Bubbinator

[Empty Quiver]

I tried this with a SP2340. It was the one and only time it has failed. It has at least 5000 rounds through it now. Being it is a double stack design might have something to do with it, not really important to me as I rarely shoot empties.

I do get the reasoning behind the practice, but after this many flawless cycles I don't need convincing of its reliability.

I did once load a round with a primer that was installed sideways (unknown to me). Lots of flash and smoke at the chamber end, I just stood there and looked at the thing totally flumaxed as to what to do. As a ML shooter as well I'm kinda used to an ocassional hang fire so I naturally gave it a few seconds. This incident did get me to wondering how a person should react under a defensive shooting situation. I always hear the " rack tap and bang drill " but a squib sure would be a bummer. As I ejected the round I saw the bullet so continued on.

Is there a good drill for such a thing, or were my instincts good enough in the end, just pretty slow?

[myronman3]

Is there a good drill for such a thing, or were my instincts good enough in the end, just pretty slow?

yup, there is.  it is the "inspect your ammo as you load it" drill.  i dont understand how you could have missed such a thing. 

[Empty Quiver]

I understand about the obviously missloaded rounds.

So should I test all of the primers? Should I just rack tap bang into a possible squib? Figuring it ain't no worse than,  getting shot? Is there some secret specop type clearance drill for a squib? Is there something short of a field strip and look down the barrel?

 I'm just asking cause I haven't a clue. Right now I'm doing pretty good with low profile living and leaving the gun holstered.

[Flint]

You don't need to field strip to clear a bullet lodged in the bore, just open and lock the slide and pound the bullet out with a cleaning rod.

Even to leave the slide closed and reduce the strain on the barrel link, etc, driving the stuck bullet back into the chamber will leave it loose and it will fall out when you open the slide.

[Keith L]

If you have a determined attacker you won't get a squib cleared before he is on you.  Use quality ammo and don't let it sit for years in the clip.  I practice with reloads, but shoot Federal Hydroshock ammo for protection.  I don't keep it more than about a year, shooting it and replacing.  I know it is not going bad from storage, cycles in my gun, and gives me confidence. 

[mrussel]

Is there some secret specop type clearance drill for a squib? Is there something short of a field strip and look down the barrel?

 There is actually,they show it in the beginning of every James Bond movie. ;-)

[SHOOTALL]

I tried this with a SP2340. It was the one and only time it has failed. It has at least 5000 rounds through it now. Being it is a double stack design might have something to do with it, not really important to me as I rarely shoot empties.

I do get the reasoning behind the practice, but after this many flawless cycles I don't need convincing of its reliability.

I did once load a round with a primer that was installed sideways (unknown to me). Lots of flash and smoke at the chamber end, I just stood there and looked at the thing totally flumaxed as to what to do. As a ML shooter as well I'm kinda used to an ocassional hang fire so I naturally gave it a few seconds. This incident did get me to wondering how a person should react under a defensive shooting situation. I always hear the " rack tap and bang drill " but a squib sure would be a bummer. As I ejected the round I saw the bullet so continued on.

Is there a good drill for such a thing, or were my instincts good enough in the end, just pretty slow?

By chance did you check the flash hole to see if it was blocked and the primer flowed out the only way it could ?

[SHOOTALL]

Dam i'm happy if my 1911's load the FMJ ball ammo flawlessly......

Hold on there is a point thats missed here.  If you can load an empty case that means the centerline from the mag to the centerline in the bore in the chamber is a close match.  Like perfect.....

Why should you care???  In any gun that has this perfect alignment means less wear on the chamber opening.  Plus it will load miliseconds faster with regular rounds too because of the centerline of both parts being a perfect match or closer than it normally is. Lets not forget the wear on the frame rails in different directions.  There are unseen forces too that can slow it down on loading too.

Being a machine builder and a engineering lead tech in the r&d lab i look at things from both sides of the fence now as an engineer and a mechanic.  

The only 45 I know of that matches is a Thompson  or a grease gun , 1911's have a couple nasty turns in the travel. Main reason for having a good crimp and also not chambering the same round over and over setting the bullet back.

[SHOOTALL]

BTW if your 1911 feeds empties the feed ramp and bbl hood along with the chamber would need to be free of obstructions to the poine of being smooth as a babys back side. One might also assume the chamber was not tight .