Author Topic: EMP  (Read 4794 times)

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Offline teamnelson

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EMP
« on: June 07, 2010, 01:10:32 PM »
Just read One Second After (http://www.onesecondafter.com/) a great new book, with a forward by Newt Gingrich. Has to do with an EMP attack on the US ... 3 high altitude nuclear bursts, fired from a container ship in the Gulf of Mexico. Have to say its a very plausible scenario, and the story plays out along reasonable lines ... very chilling.

Made me reevaluate my longterm power dependencies, or anything with a circuit board. There's a good appendix in there as well that shows how the US has fallen away from EMP hardening some primary items, so even if you built your own faraday cage, there'd likely be no infrastructure to access. Vehicles stop, many modern generators or powercubes would be useless, some radios, even some light sources.

So how would you fare if we had an EMP?

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Offline mechanic

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Re: EMP
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 01:13:19 PM »
Other than a few brief words I have read, I know nothing about  this, but am looking forward to posts so I can learn.....!
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: EMP
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 02:23:03 PM »
Your best response is to be healthy, inteligent, and have a skillset geared towards physical labor. There is no way on this earth I will be able to collect the treasure needed to survive going forward more than a couple weeks or at most months. I will have to earn my keep daily just as those who settled here in the 18th century.

 Unfortunatly horses will not be an option either.Take a good look at a village in Kenya, those folks have the skills needed for what I can envision. Help will be coming from within your own physical body not from without.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline Almtnman

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Re: EMP
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 03:05:01 PM »
Just read One Second After (http://www.onesecondafter.com/) a great new book, with a forward by Newt Gingrich. Has to do with an EMP attack on the US ... 3 high altitude nuclear bursts, fired from a container ship in the Gulf of Mexico. Have to say its a very plausible scenario, and the story plays out along reasonable lines ... very chilling.

Made me reevaluate my longterm power dependencies, or anything with a circuit board. There's a good appendix in there as well that shows how the US has fallen away from EMP hardening some primary items, so even if you built your own faraday cage, there'd likely be no infrastructure to access. Vehicles stop, many modern generators or powercubes would be useless, some radios, even some light sources.

So how would you fare if we had an EMP?

As for transportation, one would need an older model vehicle that has the points in it and no electronics. That would be the only vehicles that would run. My spouse suggested that we find an old vehicle and get it in good running shape.

I think that all the pre-2007 model diesel pickup trucks have a system that it does not effect them. I might see if I can find an old one of those.
AMM
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: EMP
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 03:12:06 PM »
Other than a few brief words I have read, I know nothing about  this, but am looking forward to posts so I can learn.....!

mechanic, defense assessments indicate that only 2-3 nuclear devices detonated just above the atmosphere over North America would do the trick. No radiation, no fallout, no flash of light, no blast, no heat ... At most we'll feel a tingle from hundreds of amps per square yard travelling at the speed of light, and most of it will hit the ground and dissipate. However every piece of metal or wire, and the longer the more energy it absorbs, will conduct it right into circuits. Even military grade breakers and surge protectors won't work as its front loaded, so it dumps the energy faster than the circuit can trip.

Let your imagination run wild with that for a bit and you get the picture; just pray you're not on an airplane at that time. If you're on the ground, it'll be like a power outage, but you'll try to call the Electric Company and the phones won't work. You'll go outside and all your neighbors will be wondering what happened, and all the cars will stop moving. Your neighbor with the generator he bought for Y2K will try to start it and it won't go. With a name like mechanic, you'll probably be doing good about then as you might have a car with no solid state electronics in it.

So no more power, water, sewer, phone, radio, tv, cars, planes, trains, boats, backup generators, hospital equipment, pacemakers, insulin pumps ... that's probably alot of the important items. Probably alot more I'm missing.
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Offline Hooker

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Re: EMP
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 03:22:08 PM »
Well I have a few items that will have to be guarded a 70 Kw non computerized diesel powered genset , non computerized diesel pickup, and 8,000 gallons of fuel. It may not sound like much but when almost everyone is reduced to a primitive existence, he who has the ability to produce energy holds a very good hand. The genset could also be converted to run off of natural gas of which there is a well on this property.
I have enough mechanical and technical skills that I should be fine as far as getting by.
My only concern is being able to hold on to these assets during that time.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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Offline Almtnman

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Re: EMP
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 03:25:29 PM »
Pat, you might have to recruit some of your kinfolks or very close friends to guard it in case you have to make a trip for medical attention or more supplies.
AMM
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"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."~~Thomas Jefferson

Offline Hooker

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Re: EMP
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 05:06:25 PM »
My concern is more from Government confiscation by use of force than having to deal with banditos they will most likely look softer targets.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline Chappers

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Re: EMP
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2010, 05:20:13 PM »
one way to plan for this is shield some valuable electronics,
i have lined the a small closet with chicken wire and tinfoil and placed inside two UPS, radio, 240w hand light, dolphin torch, kettle and a frying pan.  

Offline Duke0313

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Re: EMP
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2010, 10:45:29 PM »
I too, have considered buying an old jalopy for just such an occasion.
"Republic:  I like the sound of the word -- means people can live free, talk free, go or come, buy or sell, however they choose.  Some words give you a deep feeling.  Republic is one of those words that makes me tight in the throat. -John Wayne- The Alamo

Offline Victor3

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Re: EMP
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 03:22:52 AM »
 I don't think it's possible for 99% of us to make any meaningful preparations against an EMP attack.

 I have a '73 pickup that would be okay, but where's the fuel gonna come from after a short time? Should I rig a wood gas generator in the bed like some did during WWII when gasoline was in short supply? I might could get something like that working but where would I drive to, how far could I go, and what for? I'd think a bicycle (maybe with a small trailer) would be more practical.

 As for anything else relying on electronics, most are probably not going to be useful for long even if you did (and you probably won't) shield them. What would a generator be useful for? Incandescent lights and electric motors in devices not relying on fancy electronics I guess, but not much else I can think of.

 Regarding the military, I worked on the B1 Bomber program; probably the most carefully EMP hardened aircraft up to its time. I asked one of the engineers about how well it would really do with EMP. He told me, "We're quite sure that the mockup will survive. However, it's sitting in a hanger. Let's hope the real test when they're in the air never happens."
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: EMP
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 11:05:59 AM »
victor, I think you've got the right conclusion. If an EMP event occurred, anything that was not effected would be of limited use.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: EMP
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 11:41:47 AM »
You might have to go back to a diesel engine older than 2007 . A tractor may be a good choice from the 70's . The started could be a problem. With gas engines you could use ones with points and condenser but have many spares in a steal box . I know a farmer who won't buy a newer tractor for this reason. EMP can be done without nukes , we have a plane that will do it . One must consider a roit in a large city where control has been lost . Maybe our own Govt. will see fit to stop all elec.
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Offline squirrellluck

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Re: EMP
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 03:43:15 PM »
Dont know about ford or dodge but both my 02 and my dads 95 chevy diesels have brain boxes so I doubt they would work

Offline teamnelson

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Re: EMP
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 03:58:35 PM »
Truth is, it might even fry starters, alternators and coils according to some. Its like a low intensity lighting bolt with a longer duration, striking everywhere at once. If there are any weaknesses in the metallurgy, etc. things besides circuit boards may fail from stress alone.
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Offline don heath

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Re: EMP
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 09:02:53 PM »
Lead is a wonderful absorber.....and as most who post on this site are reloaders and casters, produce a big lead lined 'film' bag that all my clients used to carry when they flew to Africa and had to put their camera's and film through the x ray machines.

If I remember my geology lectures right a 1mm (.04") film of lead will deflect/absorb 99.99% of all electrical radiation and direct radiation.

Oh...and put your surefire tourches in there...they have very fancy electrics that fry even with a near miss lightning strike. I just lost my favourite one >:(

Offline LabRat2k3

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Re: EMP
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 11:52:01 PM »
Hooker, what kind of voltage regutator does your generator have on it? Most are printed circut boards and also control field excitation. That may be something to look at.

Offline blind ear

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Re: EMP
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2010, 12:45:39 AM »
How about home made lead paint for the quonset hut?
Oath Keepers: start local
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
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Offline Victor3

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Re: EMP
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2010, 01:27:52 AM »
Truth is, it might even fry starters, alternators and coils according to some. Its like a low intensity lighting bolt with a longer duration, striking everywhere at once. If there are any weaknesses in the metallurgy, etc. things besides circuit boards may fail from stress alone.

 TN - Fortunately (as it was explained to me anyway), an EMP would not be able to generate enough energy to damage most common electrical connections (solder joints, wires, etc.) by itself.

 However, if a device were in operation or had power supplied to it when an EMP hit and the components of a voltage regulator, rectifier (vehicle alternators have a bridge rectifier made up of four diodes as I recall), inductor, etc. were damaged, the normal power supplied to the device at the time could go astray within the circuit and cause electrical connectors, wiring, etc. to melt.

 I rekun fried is fried no matter how the heat is generated though...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Victor3

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Re: EMP
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2010, 02:08:24 AM »
Oh...and put your surefire tourches in there...they have very fancy electrics that fry even with a near miss lightning strike. I just lost my favourite one >:(

 That's possible, Don. There have been lengthy discussions on Candlepowerforums.com about how we flashlight geeks might kiss our $100 LED lights goodbye if there were ever an EMP. Good to have a few simple incandescent flashlights on hand. But then again, they'll only light up as long as batteries are available. Can't use rechargables if your charger is toast or there's no place to plug it in.  :'(

 It may be that many small battery-operated items like flashlights would survive though. The metal case could afford some protection. The really vulnerable items will be those connected to long, exposed conductors like appliances plugged into the grid (power lines).
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline blind ear

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Re: EMP
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2010, 04:36:52 AM »
Oath Keepers: start local
-
“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
-
An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
-
everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
St Judes Childrens Research Hospital

Offline teamnelson

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Re: EMP
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2010, 09:42:43 AM »
eddiegjr, Sounds like a good time to buy a solarpanel!

I'm a bit of a Luddite myself, so I'm looking to see what all electrical items I can replace with mechanical, manual ... nonelectric alternatives. Once you accept that the TV, A/C, cellphone and internet are gone, cooking & cleaning are big users of electricity and they can be done manually. I'm also trying to have manual tools instead of power, etc. Some nice to haves would be radio communication and light, but if you manage your expectations, it doesn't take much.

So if I could shield anything it might be the Eaton FR-160 I uses in my shop, solar/crank radio/3LED flashlight that you can use to charge USB items. Maybe a solar battery charger. And I'm looking at a 26w Brunton portable solar panel to trickle charge a powerblock. It'll run a heating element and charge up the CR123A batteries.
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Offline blind ear

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Re: EMP
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2010, 06:52:03 AM »
Air conditiioning is the one thing I dread not haveing. sure wish I lived up in the mountains in the Carolinas or Tennassee. Cherokee Country, they had to be the baddest because they held/owned the best.
Oath Keepers: start local
-
“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
-
An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
-
everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
St Judes Childrens Research Hospital

Offline kctibs

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Re: EMP
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2010, 07:50:38 AM »
A good thing to store smaller items and spare parts in is a microwave things should be well protected.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: EMP
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 08:01:26 AM »
I've heard the following:

You can staple chicken wire to your rafters in your attic and ground them outside with a wire and piece of pipe.  EMP voltage will ground out.  Aluminium foil backed insulation can be wired together and grounded also without chickenwire. 

You can install a wire and rod to your car, when you park near soil, you can pull the rod and stick it in the ground to ground your car.  Since it is metal, EMP voltage will then follow the shell and ground out.  Or you can park it in a garage that has been grounded (chicken wire or aluminum foil backed insualtion that is grounded..).

What this does is kind of like the screen on a microwave window.  It keeps the microwaves from coming out and burning you. 

It sounds silly, but it makes sense to build for an EMP. 

I read that Congress passed with no dissenting vote to spend  $100 million or billion dollars to make all government buildings, and I think hospitals, etc. EMP proof.  This was not on the news. 

Also most commercial buildings, factories, etc, have metal buildings and/or are thick enough to ground EMP's since they are already grounded for lighting. 

EMP's will affect transportation most heavily, unless the electronics are properly shielded and surge protected.  Properly grounding and shielding everything helps. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: EMP
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 08:13:13 AM »
It fries diodes .
May be this might help , I worked in a plant owned buy a very large company . When going to check the job I was allowed to drive in . I had to park next to an elec vault . 3 times it fried my computer . Thank goodness it was under wart. I also worked on a job where our power wireing was 4160 v  90 amps. The controls were elec. and the boards in two valves were fried twice , then the power wireing was relocated .
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: EMP
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 09:31:33 AM »
Here is information from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=emp&submit=Search

Looks like Congress is only going to protect the electric grid. 

Offline teamnelson

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Re: EMP
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 09:54:16 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/06/10/electronic-armageddon-solar-flares-disaster/?test=latestnews
Quote
A major solar storm could cause 20 times more economic damage than Hurricane Katrina, the National Academy of Sciences warned in a 2008 report, "Severe Space Weather Events—Societal and Economic Impacts."

Evidently the source of EMP that has them worried is a Solar Flare.

Good geeky article here: http://www.nojitter.com/blog/archives/2010/06/emp_defeats_the.html;jsessionid=E4W3EQ2EJBAI5QE1GHRSKH4ATMY32JVN
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: EMP
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 10:22:00 AM »
Also, the grid size you protect with must be smaller than the wave size.  Microwaves are the diameter of a pencil, thus the small holes in the door to see through.  The chicken wire I heard about to make a homeade Faraday cage.  Is it the 2" hole or the 1" hole wire?

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: EMP
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2010, 10:26:42 AM »
The boxes in radio shops are solid no holes .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !