Author Topic: considering purchasing cannon, need help (Read 2364 times)

mustang67ford · « **on:** June 12, 2010, 07:26:02 AM »

Hello,

I am somewhat new to cannons, but not blackpowder. Never been involved with the full-size cannons though I really want one. I have a small 0.69 cal round ball cannon from traditions, but the bug has bitten me. I have been doing a lot of research and reading. I recently found a cannon for sale and am in negotiations with the Owner. The cannon shoots pop cans filled with concrete and appears to be full size cannon. The person said the cannon was bought about 20 years ago from reinactors. He recently remade the entire carriage which appears to be pine (didn't ask). Showed me pics of the old carriage and it was eaten out by bugs. The cannon sides are solid, it has the 3 spacers on each side, and the trail is made of like 4 or 5 laminated boards. It has all the looks of a regular cannon. When they fired it, they would use the foil charge. They also used cannon fuse and not a regulat igniter. As for the barrel, it appears to be heavy duty but may have been homemade. There are no markings on it anywhere. The barrel is one diameter for about 3 feet then it changes over the a larger diameter for an additional foot where the charge would set. This back piece has a sidewall thickness much larger than the main bore. They also used it to fire blanks. The barrel appears to be solid steel painted black. The the old timer selling it said if it was machined, the machinest must have been a heck of a good one. It comes with a specally designed trailer and ramming tools. The seller though noted he is selling it as an "ornament" for legal reasons. He has no data or paperwork on the cannon.

As being new to cannons, I want to buy it, but am un-familiar. Does this sound like a descent cannon and what would be a fair price.

As for firing it, what am I getting in to. I am not a cannon expert. Do people other than reinactors have cannons and is there any special laws? I have read about all the cannon accidents and now I am hesitant. I know I need at least myself and a helper due to holdng the vent hole. I would love to fire it for spectators, but the whole legal issues have me scared.

Any advice would be very helpful.

Thanks,

mustang67ford · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2010, 07:30:00 AM »

If you go to this post

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,209150.0.html

and click on the link for cannon pictures, the first pic looks almost identical to the cannon I am looking at, especally the barrel, see how the diameter steps up. There are no sights though. The carriage looks almost identical as well.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2010, 07:48:13 AM »

Hello first Welcome to the cannon forum,

If you could ask the owner if you could take a few photo's of the cannon, if you can post them
we can better tell whether this is something to get or run away from.... I am hoping the carriage
is not pine but rather a hard wood, pine is the last thing one things of for carriage material.

Allen <><

mustang67ford · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2010, 09:09:45 AM »

I will take a ride later and snap some pics. I will also try to find out the carriage material.

mustang67ford · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2010, 12:53:07 PM »

Here are some pics. The Owner looked to be having family over so I just snapped some pics from my car.

GGaskill · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2010, 01:06:38 PM »

The carriage looks pretty good; hopefully it is not pine or some other soft wood. The barrel looks like a smaller piece of tubing with a shrunk on reinforce over the powder chamber. Not exactly a Parrott profile since there is no taper but assuming the dimensions are appropriate, it should be safe to shoot.

mustang67ford · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2010, 01:27:27 PM »

What if the carriage is pine, no good to shoot? I think the owner said the sholders are made out of some chun of hadwood like an old buthcer block or something. As for the barrel, I think it was solid and machined. Looking at where the dimension changes, it is definitelly not a weld, and is has a curve a machin cut would do. There is no rust where the dimensions change seeping out either.

GGaskill · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2010, 01:36:50 PM »

What if the carriage is pine, no good to shoot?

It will shoot OK, but if you fire shot, the recoil will ultimately cause breakage. Probably in the cheeks, maybe in the trail. If the trunnion irons fit well, you may get good life even from pine because well fitted irons spread the recoil force over the whole cheek rather than just at the bolt holes and behind the trunnions.

Double D · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2010, 02:15:53 PM »

Might be could be isn't good enough.

You need to ask some very definite questions.

1. What is the barrel made of.
2. What is the carriage made of?

To my eye the barrel looks suspiciously like a piece of pipe screwed into a larger chamber part. The barrel does not look like one solid machined unit. You need to know beyond any doubt what that barrel is made of.

I believe Southern yellow pine was used for carriage material, but hardwood is much preferred for the strength. If any part of this gun has any value it is the carriage, if it is sound.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2010, 03:09:30 PM »

Whats strange is that someone paid fairly good attention to detail with the carriage
as to detail it almost looks like you could drop a correct size Civil War tube on it
and have a good looking set up, the wheels and axle probably came from a farm
wagon , where things really went south is the actual building of the cannon....
another concern is how the trunnions are attached & what the welds look like.

mustang67ford · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2010, 07:47:42 PM »

I talked to the Owner, the trail is made of pine as suspected and the sides the cannon attaches to are solid cherry. I am meeting him tomorrow (sunday) and will get some up close pictures. The wheels are from a farm or a amish buggy I believe. As for the barrel material, I'll take a light, get some dimensions, snap some pics and see what I can find out.

Again, thanks for all the help here guys.

mustang67ford · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2010, 06:44:40 AM »

Ok, met with the Owner this morning and took some more detailed photos. The barrel is definitelly some type of steel. The bore is rusty as I shined a light down it. The bore diameter is 2.75", the wall thickness at the muzzel is 11/16" and the ovaral diameter at the muszzel is 4 3/16" and the circumference is about 13 1/8". The smaller diameter part of the barrel is 56" long and the thicker part of the barrel is 16 1/2" long with a circumference of 27 3/8". I can not tell how the two pieces are attached. the ovarall width from wheel to wheel is 61". I hope this is some useful information. I do need to make a decision on the cannon, any ideas on if it is a good purchase and what a fair price would be?

I can't wait to get it. I have so many ideas for it. I really want to get into this hobby, but don't want to get taken for a ride. Thanks again.

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2010, 07:43:45 AM »

My frank opinion...run away from that!

Bore needs some very heavy work. It has some serious neglect. Doesn't look like pipe, could be heavy walled tubing. If it's seamless tubing fine, but if it's welded seam, then it's scary.

This by it self rules this gun out in my book for any serious consideration for any purpose.

Tell us about this gun!!

KABAR2 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2010, 07:49:37 AM »

After seeing the bore on this I would save your money and walk away!
the bore is pitted and has scale rust along the length that can be seen,
you would be better served looking at some of our sponsors cannon
for something reliable that will not be a money pit.

Other deficiencies I note from photo's :

Wheels more than likely are loose there is a lot of filler on these wheels
which means someone is trying to hide something not just pretty it up.

the pine trail may hold up but I can show you photo's of a correct Reproduction C.W. cannon
that had a field load fired with ball with a broken oak trail. also if you look at the one photo
showing the front of the trail below the barrel I again see putty - not a good sign.

trunnions look to be made well trunnion irons show gaps between iron and wood again either
wood strips have been added or there is more putty involved.

you will be buying a project that would be better serve as a lawn ornament. the barrel should be
filled with concrete. just my opinion and you know what opinions are worth.

Allen <><

subdjoe · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2010, 08:08:57 AM »

I have to agree, say "Thanks for your time, but I'll pass on it." That bore is downright frightening. Not only the rust, but it looks uneven - which might be an illusion from the flash. MAYBE if you were to hone it clean and even, the install a heavy sleeve it could work. But by the time you did all that, you could buy a new, solid tube that you wouldn't have to worry about.

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2010, 11:08:53 AM »

DD, I think that little gun belongs to somebody else. In that string of pictures there is a partial picture of one of Dom's cannons next to that little gun.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2010, 11:28:04 AM »

I think you are right!!!

barefiel76 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2010, 02:26:31 PM »

I can comment on the carriage and leave the barrel to the experts. There is no doubt that wood filler is on the carriage. So no doubt there are weak spots in the build. There is also some pretty dry wood on the wheels that would not with stand much pounding from firing. As a project the metal piece might be good to build a different carriage. (Not commenting on the barrel there.)

Best advice I saw, "Thanks" and run. Second best, fill it in with concrete and use it as a lawn ornament.

dominick · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »

The barrel looks like it was made from an existing machinery part. The transition from the large diameter to small has a robotic type mig weld. It's welded while being rotated. It may have been a large roller shaft at one time that was drilled. I haven't seen any tubing with that rough a bore. I've seen drilled bores that rough. [Been there, Done that]. Even hot formed seamless tubing, which has the roughest ID's of tubing that size does not normally have a finish with ripples along it's length. Hot formed seamless usually has either an egg shaped bore or one with flat spots that run along the length. It's made by piercing a hardened bar through a piece or solid round.

Zulu · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2010, 05:18:27 PM »

It is certainly hard to get excited over this gun. There are much better options to spend your money. I know it is easy to get caught up in the excitement of owning a big gun. I have been there. Take your time. Look at other options. It is a big investment and you can do better for your money.
Zulu

mustang67ford · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2010, 06:03:56 PM »

Well guys, from what I've read, it doesin't sound good. Great information, though very disappointing. I was all ready to hook the trailer to the truck and drive away. The robotic mig weld does sound like it fits if they had this 20 years ago. The is how long the owner had this gun and he bought it already built. Wouldn'ty that make for a good solid barrel then? That little cannon DD is talking about, not sure how it got into the discussion. It isin't mine nor did I ever see that pic before. I was thinking the bore could have been cleaned up with a wire brush welded to a rod an spun on a drill or something, but I guess people are concerned with the pitting.

The wheels don't bother me much, I could get another set for about $200.

It sounds like there is no hope for this one, how do you guys ever find guns. This one seemed great to me, with trailer and all. What I don't want to do, is rollgo to a cannon shoot and have something that looks homemade and cheap which is what this one sounds to be like. I look on gunbroker, and they go for may thousands of dollars, practically need a 2nd morgage to get one. Heck, there are some on there for 20+ thousand dollars.

If my money can be better spent another way, any suggestions on how do do this? Build from scratch or buy a carriage and gun separatelly?

Thanks

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2010, 06:15:12 PM »

Well start by telling us what you are looking for and what you want to do with it. We might have some ideas for you.

You might also give us some idea of your experience with cannons

GGaskill · « **Reply #22 on:** June 13, 2010, 07:14:37 PM »

First, read this post; it is about carriages but it applies to barrels, also.

A full size Napoleon weighs about 1100 lbs; a full size Parrott or ordnance rifle weighs about 800 lbs. Just the steel alone to make something full size is going to cost over a thousand dollars. And it will need a large lathe, a skilled machinist and a lot of time to change it from a round piece of steel into a cannon barrel. Unless you can do it yourself, or have some debts you can collect from a machinist, it's going to be expensive.

That's one of the reasons most of the people on this forum make miniatures, say one half to one quarter scale. They are not desk top size but they aren't full size, either. And they are easier to move around.

Victor3 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 13, 2010, 10:42:02 PM »

Mustang,

I tend to agree with GGaskil; for your 1st cannon you might want to go with something a little smaller to see if you really want to continue on to a big one. I don't know how many people I've known personnally or heard about here and other places who bought or built a large gun and shortly thereafter decided it was too much hassle and expense to get out and use.

A friend of mine had a very nice 2/3 scale 1841 complete with carriage and all the tools and goodies that mostly just took up space in his garage for two decades after he put it together. He offered the whole package to me for $600 a few years back but I knew it would just sit in my garage (or out in the yard) for years too.

Also, it's better to get a cannon that at least looks half way like an original. If you decide to sell, people are inclined to pay more for something that looks close to the real deal. That one you were considering didn't come very close to any real barrel from the Civil War era.

If you decide to go with a larger off-the-shelf barrel, you might consider something from Hern. They offer cast iron barrels with a steel liner. Many folks use them. I've been eyeballing their English swivel gun for a while since it's not too big...

http://www.hernironworks.com/cannons.html

As far as a carriage goes, if you wanted a bullet-proof all steel one, Dom Carpenter (one of the sponsers here) has made large ones in the past. Many of us here (me included) have had him do custom stuff at very reasonable cost.

Zulu · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2010, 03:54:51 AM »

Mustang,
If you have a gun that you can pick up and carry, it can be carried inside to protect it from the weather. If you have a large gun on a trailer, you must also protect it from the weather or it will look like the one you were considering in short order. I had a full scale Parrott Rifle with a limber for 10 years. It lived in a storage unit. It was still very nice when I sold it but I ate the storage costs for all those years. I collected a premium price on it because of its condition. It never went to storage without a thourough cleaning. A large gun is something to be proud of but it requires a lot more attention and care than a smaller gun.
Zulu

KABAR2 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 14, 2010, 05:16:21 AM »

Another consideration with size is the amount of powder consumed & where you can shoot it.
These are items that REALLY require you to be sure of your backstop, even with the smaller
bore sizes they can still do dammage a long way off. If you are getting into the hobby a Dom
Carpenter tube or a Hern tube would be a good start.
http://blackpowder-cannons.com/index.htm

RocklockI · « **Reply #26 on:** June 14, 2010, 06:22:50 AM »

Quote from: mustang67ford on June 13, 2010, 06:03:56 PM

Well guys, from what I've read, it doesin't sound good. Great information, though very disappointing. I was all ready to hook the trailer to the truck and drive away. The robotic mig weld does sound like it fits if they had this 20 years ago. The is how long the owner had this gun and he bought it already built. Wouldn'ty that make for a good solid barrel then? That little cannon DD is talking about, not sure how it got into the discussion. It isin't mine nor did I ever see that pic before. I was thinking the bore could have been cleaned up with a wire brush welded to a rod an spun on a drill or something, but I guess people are concerned with the pitting.

The wheels don't bother me much, I could get another set for about $200.

It sounds like there is no hope for this one, how do you guys ever find guns. This one seemed great to me, with trailer and all. What I don't want to do, is rollgo to a cannon shoot and have something that looks homemade and cheap which is what this one sounds to be like. I look on gunbroker, and they go for may thousands of dollars, practically need a 2nd morgage to get one. Heck, there are some on there for 20+ thousand dollars.
If my money can be better spent another way, any suggestions on how do do this? Build from scratch or buy a carriage and gun separatelly?

Thanks

These guys are correct big cannons are big and heavy ,my Dom parrott gun tube is 58 lbs all together 140 lbs ,not to much really . But it can be awkward ,it is the biggest gun I'd ever consider for shooting solo .

I highlighted part of your post that will not be the case if you pass .

I'm being blunt now

to me the carriage looks better than the barrel .

Spend some time here watching and dont get discourgaged and run off because you did what a lot of people dont ....they inquired B4 they bought . That barrel is just wrong ,no taper no grace .too skinny too .

If you show up at a shoot with that in tow .......in short "..home made and cheap" you will get looks for sure , and if you couldnt tell that right off you should hang out and look at cannons for awhile .

If you are going to spend any time in this hobby that is not want you want . You won't like it for long .

YMMV Gary

eta where can you get a piar of wheels for 200 bucks ?

mustang67ford · « **Reply #27 on:** June 15, 2010, 05:25:37 PM »

Thanks for all the responses. I reviewed th link to the post andI would like something larger. This would have been my 2nd cannon, I have one that is much much smaller from traditions. Iam looking for a larger size gun and do have some $$. I guess I'll have to start watching the classifieds on this site. Or, is it cheaper to order a carriage and a barrel separatelly. I definitelly would not e making the barrel, but I could make the carriage. Thanks for all the help again and if anybody sees something for sell, please email me at mustang67ford@live.com . Thanks

Zulu · « **Reply #28 on:** June 16, 2010, 12:54:13 PM »

Mustang,
Making a full scale carriage is very, very involved. It easily could take a year. You can purchase a barrel seperatly form South Bend Replicas. Look them up on line. I think they are amoung the nicest barrels made.
They don't sell carriages. Paulson Brothers builds carriages. Steen Cannons also builds a very nice product.
$$$ = quality
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #29 on:** June 16, 2010, 03:17:48 PM »

Quote from: mustang67ford on June 15, 2010, 05:25:37 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I reviewed th link to the post andI would like something larger. This would have been my 2nd cannon, I have one that is much much smaller from traditions. Iam looking for a larger size gun and do have some $$. I guess I'll have to start watching the classifieds on this site. Or, is it cheaper to order a carriage and a barrel separatelly. I definitelly would not e making the barrel, but I could make the carriage. Thanks for all the help again and if anybody sees something for sell, please email me at mustang67ford@live.com . Thanks

What do you have in mind? Are you looking for a bigger gun that you can crew by yourself. Or are you looking for something bigger.

The picture below is of my 1 inch gun. The gun weighs about 60 lbs and is a bunch of work for one person to operate. When thinking about a one man gun, think about how you will move it. Moving involves loading and unloading on you vehicle. Range set up. Cleanup, storage, display.

The mortar behind is my Pop can Dom Dictator. It weighs 90 lbs and is a beast to move and ball of fun to shoot.

I have a larger 6 PDR mortar in progress and may regret building it. It weighs 160 lbs on the temporary carriage. I don't move it without help. Accordingly it doesn't get moved or used much. It also uses a lot more powder than the others, that do get shot.

If you are thinking about a big gun, may I suggest you find a big gun that some group owns and ask to crew on it. Then decide if you want a big gun.

By the way the big gun behind with flag decor is South Paw's bowling ball mortar, he needs a tractor to move it around.