Is there a need for cannon liner

[Double D]

     
     So when will you be needing this iron carriage and rifling work completed?  We know a couple of guys who do that sort of thing quite well.  

Mike and Tracy

Is this where I am supposed to say "check with our sponsors listed in the stickies at the board..."   I think I need to add that to my signature line.  

No the WM Green "M-1841" stays a smooth bore...even if a pro bono conversion is offered.  

What would be neat and I bet would grab a lot of attention is if we could find someone to supply rifled liners in scaled down dimension featuring original patterns of rifling used in pre 1898 cannons...I would find some way to afford a 24 inch liner with a 1 inch bore with the type of rifling used in a 10 PDR Parrot rifle.  

[Double D]

What would be neat and I bet would grab a lot of attention is if we could find someone to supply rifled liners in scaled down dimensions featuring original patterns of rifling used in pre 1898 cannons...I would find some way to afford a 24 inch liner with a 1 inch bore with the type of rifling used in a 10 PDR Parrot rifle. 

Anybody else agree with me?

[KABAR2]

DD,

I think it's a great idea, but not just one inch.

[Double D]

DD,

I think it's a great idea, but not just one inch.

Oh no not just one inch, other sizes also, some scaled of course.

[GGaskill]

I would expect something like that to have a cost comparable to that of a Krieger cut rifled barrel at a minimum.  $300 wouldn't surprise me.  Maybe more because a breech plug would have to be installed.

[Double D]

A rifled blank would be just fine.  The buyer could be responsible fit finish and installation.  Or  fit, finish and installation extra.
 

[GGaskill]

What kind of wall thickness are you looking for?

[Double D]

What kind of wall thickness are you looking for?

Well who ever makes them should make them at a minimum to N-SSA standards.

[KABAR2]

I would expect something like that to have a cost comparable to that of a Krieger cut rifled barrel at a minimum.  $300 wouldn't surprise me.  Maybe more because a breech plug would have to be installed.

If Seacoast made them there would be no need for a breech plug..... they deep hole drill solid stock and rifle the tube the breech is part of the tube.
remember how the rifling head on their machine works, when the head hits the breech wall the cutter is put in position for the cut. and cuts on the way out. I agree the price would be more than $300 but where else can you get period cut rifling?

M&T sorry if we have Hi-Jacked your thread, perhaps this portion could be split off and moved to it's own thread,
I hope you wold add some input as to the possibilities... ??

[Double D]

If Seacoast made them there would be no need for a breech plug..... they deep hole drill solid stock and rifle the tube the breech is part of the tube.
remember how the rifling head on their machine works, when the head hits the breech wall the cutter is put in position for the cut. and cuts on the way out. I agree the price would be more than $300 but where else can you get period cut rifling?

I forgot about that...even better.   But will they do it! Will they have to expand their plant and hire extra staff!! Will Tracy wear a tie to work?

M&T sorry if we have Hi-Jacked your thread, perhaps this portion could be split off and moved to it's own thread,
I hope you wold add some input as to the possibilities... ??[/b][/color]

De-hijacked and split!!

[seacoastartillery]

If Seacoast made them there would be no need for a breech plug..... they deep hole drill solid stock and rifle the tube the breech is part of the tube.
remember how the rifling head on their machine works, when the head hits the breech wall the cutter is put in position for the cut. and cuts on the way out. I agree the price would be more than $300 but where else can you get period cut rifling?

I forgot about that...even better.   But will they do it! Will they have to expand their plant and hire extra staff!! Will Tracy wear a tie to work?

M&T sorry if we have Hi-Jacked your thread, perhaps this portion could be split off and moved to it's own thread,
I hope you wold add some input as to the possibilities... ??[/b][/color]

De-hijacked and split!!

    OOPS!   I didn't see this thread until after I posted our own  "Liners" thread.  Double D can combine these in any fashion he so desires, we do not care, but just one thread would make more sense, would it not?  As to the first, blue highlighted line, above, we must say, it will be two times $300, to 3 times $300, minimum for this type which is how we make our premium, Seacoast Series, cannon.  As to the second blue highlighted line above, the answer is No, Hell No and Never.

Tracy

[seacoastartillery]

  Mike and I have been thinking about several different ways to have some fun, (rifling tubes is Fun) and generate some cash flow between commissions for our 'Magnificent Seacoast Series' of 1/6 scale Seacoast Guns.  The two ideas we have been discussing so far have been Rifled Liners or Rifled Cannon Blanks for Bore sizes from 1" to 2.50".

     We will see if there is any interest out there among the GBO membership by the interest shown in this thread.  We better get cost out of the way first so we will not be charged with leading someone on.  From our discussions with potential customers and other makers, we can't see any possibility of making a Quality liner, minimum thickness-.375", of top quality seamless tubing in a length up to 36" for less than $275 + shipping.  And for a Rifled Cannon Blank which is a rifled tube with very thick walls that you or your machinist friend can lathe turn to replicate any cannon type you like, the starting cost would be $375 + shipping.  Please remember that the $275 and $375 are starting points and that what you specify may cost more.

     One more thing, we will not be welding anything, period.  For cannon breeches, you need expert, not beginner, welding done and we don't need any more learning curves at this time.  Crush fit threaded breech plugs with hemispherical internal radii will be fitted to all liners.  All liners and cannon blanks will be properly reamed for a smooth, consistently sized bore, ready for rifling, and then rifled with straight or gain twist rifling at the customer's request.

     The availability date is still too far off to be certain, but a good guesstimate would be approx. next Spring.  We just had another 100 Pdr Parrott ordered and these Seacoast guns have priority over all else.  We have several main assys. already built for it so probably 4 months would see it complete.  It's planned to be started in Dec. 2011, so Liners and Cannon Blanks should be available in April, May or June  of 2011.

     Any questions, suggestions or comments are welcome on this thread.

Mike and Tracy

[KABAR2]

Well When the date that you decide to build blanks arrives I will have hoped my finances have
recuperated to the point that I can order a 36" 2.5 blank from you, the possibilities for theses are endless. 

[Double D]

Sounds like I need to start walking the highway collecting aluminum cans!!!! Oh for the old days collecting pop bottle to buy penny candy....

[Victor3]

 I'd buy something like that at those prices.

[seacoastartillery]

     And here Mike and I thought the Handiholics rule of these forums was absolute.  Maybe not.  There is hope after all.  Three interested parties in one day.  Not bad.  Forgot to mention it before, but the material we are thinking of for these liners and Rifled Cannon Blanks is 1018 steel.  If you insist on 4150 or 4140, the material cost goes up dramatically.  One more thing, because of subsequent machining ops have to be performed on both of these products, the vent WILL NOT be drilled.  Think about it.  You will understand why.  As long as you peck-drill a vent, taking your time and using a light touch, and plenty of cutting oil, you should have no problems.  However, just thinking about the possibility of a broken drill makes it a nail-biter of an operation.

Tracy and Mike

[KABAR2]

M&T,

Un-drilled is fine, being a barrel blank where we decide the final contour add trunnions etc. makes sense
plus it is up to us if we want an angled touch hole at the rear or a straight touch hole or perhaps someone
thinks it should be at mid point on the chamber....... Also if there were a touch hole and someone decided
to use it as a liner in a cast gun it would have to be plugged beforehand.

1018 steel is fine, besides the extra cost of 4150 & 4140 There would be an added cost for the extra wear and tear on
the tooling....

 
 
 Will Tracy wear a tie to work?

 
 

   As to the second blue highlighted line above, the answer is No, Hell No and Never.

Tracy

Note to self...... No ties for Tracy for Christmas......

[Victor3]

 Think Gary would cast some bronze over them for ~$50?

 

[little seacoast]

Hi, Is a rifled liner to fit a 2.25" bore possible in GB caliber? Would a semi authentic Parrott rifling be doable?

[GGaskill]

When you think about a rifled bore, also think about what you are going to use for projectiles. 

[seacoastartillery]

M&T,

Un-drilled is fine, being a barrel blank where we decide the final contour add trunnions etc. makes sense
plus it is up to us if we want an angled touch hole at the rear or a straight touch hole or perhaps someone
thinks it should be at mid point on the chamber....... Also if there were a touch hole and someone decided
to use it as a liner in a cast gun it would have to be plugged beforehand.
  

     Seacoast.....All of these are very good reasons NOT to drill the touch hole or vent!  We will not be doing that.


1018 steel is fine, besides the extra cost of 4150 & 4140 There would be an added cost for the extra wear and tear on
the tooling...

    
     Seacoast.....Yes, except for the hook cutter, itself, there will be more wear on the Rifling Head parts and other parts of the rifling machine.  Dan will love what we are going to say next.  For hook Cutters, we can find no steel better than Swedish Tool steel offered by MSC in their huge catalog.  When we switched to Swedish tool steel from REX tool steel, we were able to go from three sharpenings per tube (9 groove) to 3 complete tubes (27 grooves to full depth) per sharpening!!  6X as good!!!  And it isn't any more fragile than the real soft Indian tool steel.

Think Gary would cast some bronze over them for ~$50?
 

     Victor, if Gary wants to cast some bronze over one, which I doubt, he can try it.  To steel's credit, it does not turn green, but with a little gun oil occasionally, stays blue-black for as long as you own the cannon.

Hi, Is a rifled liner to fit a 2.25" bore possible in GB caliber? Would a semi authentic Parrott rifling be doable?

     Little seacoast, we will not be doing the larger sizes for about a year after we start making these liners, the reason for this is two-fold.  First we can't afford the approx. 5 to 7 thousand dollars it will cost to buy the new drills (larger sizes are not available in thicker wall tube form and will have to be drilled) , reamers for each new size, and many hours of shop time necessary to make the new no. of groove indexing collars for the rifling machine and the new Rifling Head needed foe each new bore size.  For the first year of making these we will stick to the smaller sizes like 1.00", 1.067", 1.167", 1.250" and 1.333".  Most of you can see that these sizes are 1/6 scale of a standard Civil War rifled gun size (such as 6.4", 7.0" and 8.0").  Also if you rifle larger bores, a new rifling machine will have to be built which can cut wider grooves with either a hydraulic Rifling Head feed or a motorized lead-screw or ball-screw drive. We will not be doing this anytime soon. maybe in two years from now, but not before.

     So, a GB liner is certainly possible, but not in authentic 3 groove, (Parrott Rifling).  It would have to be done in multi-groove rifling like our miniature 100 pdr. Parrott.  See pic below.  Tool pressure is far too great to be done by hand.  Has anyone ever wondered why the early rifle builders who made their barrels on hand driven rifling machines, offered rifling with many small grooves rather than several wide grooves?  They simply could not overcome the friction between a large hook cutter and the barrel steel(iron).  You can be sure that we will make a larger rifling machine, probably a ball screw type, if the interest in the smaller sizes is really there, but we must be sure it is before we invest in the time (3 months) to make it.

Mike and Tracy


1/6 scale, authentic Parrott style rifling, 9 groove RH, 1/36" Gain Twist




We have to make one of these Rifling Heads for each new bore size.  This very precise work requires 3 full days.




You also must make one of these No. of Groove Indexing Collars for each new No. of rifling groove change.




You need a new expensive($250) push-reamer modified to deliver compressed air and water-sol cutting fluid for each new bore size.




This is what the Cannon Blank will look like for a Parrott type profile just prior to reaming and rifling.


 

[KABAR2]

M&T,

I read your last post several times, the first time we discussed the possibility of this in email form was back in Sept of 09,
I can see much time and thought has gone into this and I can see that you will most likely move forward in this endeavor as time
permits I look forward to the day these may become available one possible item I see in my future would be a nice scaled down
confederate mountain rifle using one of your barrel blanks as a liner.


Allen <><   

[little seacoast]

Thanks for the reply and an explanation of what is involved in this kind of work.  I'm sure glad there are folks who understand and are actually able to do this kind of work, many of us don't and can't.
   I will be very interested in a barrel when/if you decide to build. Please keep all of us informed. Best Regards, LS

[XxLT250RxX]

I would be very interested in a rifled Cannon Blank for a Parrott.  I will be watching and waiting for updates.

[Cannoneer]

"For the first year of making these we will stick to the smaller sizes like 1.00", 1.067", 1.167", 1.250" and 1.333"."

T&M,

What would be your prognosis on rifling smaller bore sizes than these, say a .75 caliber on an already existing 16-inch barrel made of 1018 solid stock?
 

[PaulB]

I would also buy one, probably 1.25" although my dream would be 1.5"  for a 1/2 scale gun.

[seacoastartillery]

     Thanks to everyone for your interest and you can count on updates as we get closer to making some of these products.  Paul B.   We can also probably supply the 1.5" size.  1.5 X 3.1416=4.7124 (inside circumference) of a 1.5" dia. bore.  We may be able to provide a 9 groove tube to satisfy this size like this:  4.7124/18(9 lands and 9 grooves of equal width) = .2618" wide grooves and lands.  Experiments will determine if we can cut these grooves, with our curren, hand driven, equipment which has a mechanical advantage of approx. 4:1.  We will keep you fellows in the loop with updates on the results of those experiments.  We may have to do a twelve groove tube which will reduce the groove width to about .196" which we are sure we could do, as we now cut some tubes with .187" wide grooves without difficulty.   

     Unfortunately, Boom J., we know we can't handle gunsmithing type projects such as you describe.  The reason for this is that our company is not set up like a gunsmith shop, with a terrific variety of little clamps, etc.,etc. which are used to perform open set-ups on a great variety of part and assys.  As slow as our production parts flow is, the fact remains that we have sacrificed some of this "do anything" capability to be able to afford the very best tools available ($300 gundrills) and ($250 push reamers to cut the smoothest and straightest holes possible), to do those tasks that actually advance our piece-parts and assemblies forward, toward the Final assy. process and product completion.  You can't have it both ways.  However, if you decide to sleeve the bore of another cannon someday with a rifled liner, we may be able to help you out.

Mike and Tracy

[VA Rifleman]

I'll through my hat in the ring for a rifled barrel blank.

[PaulB]

     Thanks to everyone for your interest and you can count on updates as we get closer to making some of these products.  Paul B.   We can also probably supply the 1.5" size.  1.5 X 3.1416=4.7124 (inside circumference) of a 1.5" dia. bore.  We may be able to provide a 9 groove tube to satisfy this size like this:  

Outstanding! count me in.

[seacoastartillery]

     Glad you are happy, Paul.  And to everyone including KABAR2, LT250 and VA Rifleman who was interested in the rifled cannon blanks, the following photo is for you and should help to let you see what a rifled cannon blank will look like.  Allen, a Confederate Mountain Rifle?  Kool!!

Mike and Tracy


This is a cannon blank or roughed out turning of our 1/6 scale 100 Pdr. Parrott rifle, M1861 on the right, with the finished tube on the left.  It is significant that a 1/3 scale Parrott field gun tube is almost identical in size to the 1/6 scale 100 Pdr.  You can use this information to find a carriage maker if you don't have one already.  Neff Cannons makes a really nice field gun carriage in 1/3 scale for the 10 Pdr. Parrott, and the Ordnance rifle.  Also you have Jefferson Armory who makes custom carriages for those size tubes.  We have visited him and seen all the fixtures and one of his carriages.  Top notch.  We have also seen Neff's carriages and guns at one of the big Nevada gun shows a few years back.  Very fine wood work there.  These two businesses are on the GBO List of cannon suppliers and both have excellent websites that have great photos of their work.

The cannon blank on the right has the large central steel ring from which we machine the trunnions and rimbases and front sight mass.  Most of you will probably be welding your trunnions on the tube which is perfectly fine and is much, much less expensive.  The lack of that large trunnion material ring is the only difference you will find on your Parrott rifled cannon blank.  A weight reducing series of turning will be done to customer specs. (dimensions) and we will try real hard to get the weight under 70 Lbs., the UPS limit.  Finished weight will be right around 45 Lbs. for the 1/3 Scale 10 Pdr. Parrott tube.  Because we need centers to turn the blank, you or your machinist won't have to waste time with that task.  The cannon blank will come to you ready to turn the final, distinctive profile of the cannon you have chosen to be your head-turner at the gun range.




Just ignore 'Minime' behind the 11" Paixhans Mortar Tube and see rifled cannon blanks to the right for a Brooke style tube.