Is there a need for cannon liner

[KABAR2]

There is a romantic notion put forth that an Artist will look at the piece of stone or chunk of wood and try to "see"
the thing that want's to come out of it.......... and then carve away the bits that don't need to be there.... while many
work for a commission which lets them "see" what needs to come out of the stone or wood...... some may carefully
select the piece for the commission, I think it is more experience that guides the eye as to what will work and what
will not.....


I want to thank you for sharing a work in progress it really shows how much
goes into the manufacture of one of your cannon, it takes a lot of machining
to get to the point of having trunnions on that tube, no short cuts here! no welds
just one piece of metal being cut to shape, and all that needs happen is a tool breaking
near the end of the process and gall the metal........ shiver......

[Double D]

M&T,

Would these barrel blanks be available as just straight cylinders and or must they be step profiled before they can be rifled?

[seacoastartillery]

     KABAR2,     It is a bunch of very precise milling to reveal those trunnions, rimbases and rear sight mass which are hiding within that 'trunnion ring'.  Mike has 7 full pages of Excell X-Y-Z coordinates to go by when he does that 'nail biting' work.  While I turn the various cylinders and tapers and external radii on that type tube, I leave the 'Trunnion Expose' to Mike who is the expert machinist in our little company. 

     Neither Mike nor I play the game of chess, but we do plan out 'moves' or machining operations 9 or 10 steps ahead of the first chip being produced, even on the first prototype.  The high material cost for the 'rounds' of 4150 Crucible steel, $300 for the Parrott tube and $500 for the Brooke, force you to pay strict attention to what the heck you are doing!!

     Double D,      These Rifled Cannon Blanks we are talking about will be available as straight cylinders, saving the customer 30 to 100 dollars per customer request.  Straight cylinder will be standard shape, with stepped as an option.  I wouldn't worry too much about the so-called,  'expansion' of the bore in the muzzle area.  This is simply theoretical stuff here, no one, but no one has any data to back this up.  If there is any, it's probably located in one of the 20,000 crates in that warehouse where the govt. stored the 'Arc' in that Indiana Jones tale.  What you should be worried about is the fact that a portion of the rifling in every rifled tube is irregular in the muzzle area due to the rifling head being unsupported, either wholly or partially, as it emerges from the tube during every stroke.  Not everyone trims a portion of the tube off to eliminate this imperfect section.  WE DO!   More importantly, we will continue to remove the last two inches from each and every Blank or rifled liner that we will be making, allowing us to ship the most perfect rifling we possibly can, throughout the Entire Bore, to each and every customer.

Mike and Tracy

[VA Rifleman]

Mike & Tracy,

When I look at your work, my jaw drops and the mind says WOW!
Like Kbar2 says, you guys are artists of the 1st order. We are lucky to have folks such as yourselves as sponsors and hopefully suppliers of those beautiful barrels! Can't wait til next year.
In awe,  Va Rifleman.

[little seacoast]

Ah yes, this thread! Remembered it but couldn't find it to save my shriveled soul.  Yes I want two (2) liners when you get them in production.  When I get one watch out VA Rifleman!  Best Regards, LS

[seacoastartillery]

     No offense, Little seacoast, but it seems like a logical idea to use this thread for further discussion of rifled liners for less than full scale cannons.  Call us lazy, but we would prefer not to re-post all those pics.  With the research phase of the effort by Seacoast Artillery Company to produce Safe, Accurate and Reasonable Cost rifled liners starting today, we thought it would be a good idea to discuss what type of projectile the interested members think they would most likely want to shoot.  This preference can cause rifling form and depth changes from what we have been making.

     So, the choices, in our opinion for most of you would be one of the following: 

1)    Cast Lead    The mold can make a Minie type projectile or pellet shaped or a simple cylinder(if you use really soft lead it will   
                           upset to take the rifling without any difficulty with a scale service load).


2)    Cast Zinc     The advantages of this material is negligible compared to lead in the smaller bore sizes we are producing first
                            like 1" to 1.333"


3)    A Constructed projectile      An example of this would be a 2.0" piece of ground low carbon rod 1.000" Dia. with a brass sabot 
                                                   attached, which, upon firing, would expand into the rifling.  The bore (land to land dia.) would be
                                                   1.006" to 1.010".


4)    A Turned Projectile      This is what we make for our 1/6 scale seacoast guns out of the extremely malleable, leaded steel, 12L14. 
                                           Annealed brass could be used also.  In this style, the sabot is integral with the bolt, itself and it's flange
                                           flairs out to engage the rifling upon firing.


     What do you have in mind?


Mike and Tracy

[seacoastartillery]

     Without forgetting to tell us about the type of projo you anticipate shooting, could you also please include what size, outside the 1.000" to 1.333" Dia. range that you are most interested in.  No general descriptions please.  Give us a number like 1.750" or other number.  Also the thickness of the liner will be .375" to .500", depending what size bore you have and what size seamless tube is available.

Thank you.

Mike and Tracy

[little seacoast]

No offense taken, glad to find the pertinent thread again and yes it does make sense to use it.  What I have in mind is a liner  that will use a GB sized shell of lead cast in a mold like VA Rifleman uses made to fit my 2.25" Parrott. I will have to measure the bore for actual size and depth.  The second would be for the mysterious Florida gun that I'm going to see this week.  Be nice to have one for my Sawyer Rifle that Dom made- currently has a 1" bore. Want to use cast Mini ball type lead projectile for that one. When time nears I can get more specific as needed. Thanks, LS
 
Seeing the new post above written while I was typing, I want a 1.50 bore with wall thickness of 0.375".

[Double D]

   
     
 


2)    Cast Zinc     The advantages of this material is negligible compared to lead in the smaller bore sizes we are producing first
                            like 1" to 1.333"


 


   

Mike and Tracy

Cast zinc is a headache to cast, yes that is correct.  But the advantages are far from negligible.  Zinc has lower mass and is less subject to deformation in handling.   Lower mass equates to lesser pressure when fired.  Less deformation is a major plus. The zinc projectile can often be shot over and over again.  Lead has to be recast everytime.  Drop a lead projectile while handling and its back to the pot for recasting.  Drop a zinc projectile, brush the dust of load and shoot.

I think you sell you self short not taking a good hard look at maching zinc rounds into bolts and trying them.  Roto metal sells zinc rods from 5/8" to 6" and they will buy back your chips. .  http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/zinccastrods.htm

[shred]

Hmm... how good is 12L14 for projectiles?  I have access to lots of 1" bar ends...

[seacoastartillery]

        LS,  Thank you, we will consider the 2.25", but you probably know why we are starting small the first year and expanding on the offerings only if it is cost efficient to do so.  Lead Minie, got it.
 
      DD,   Zinc has very little malleability and would be a questionable choice in a projectile with an integral sabot.  We have little doubt that a skirt made from zinc would be forced into the rifling grooves upon firing; the question is, “Would the skirt still be attached to the bolt and able to transmit rotational force to it?”  We think not, but would be willing to test it out just to know for sure.  UNLESS you are going to go through the hassles of cast-in-place, rifling on the projo, we would probably use our zinc for the excellent mortar balls and smooth bore cannon balls it can make.  At the velocities you will achieve from an efficient BP burner like the 1.000" bore dia. rifled gun, you can forget about using the dug-out bullets.  They will be wrecked.  ANY steel is tougher and we have yet to find one we can use again.  With lead, just throw them in the pot, flux, remove dross and cast new ones.  You are right.  Resistance to handling damage is their main advantage;  lead is easily damaged due to it’s high malleability factor.
 
      Shred,  we have fired just over 200 bolts made from 12L14 and can report that if you have a little mini-lathe or larger you can make them simply.  We have found that excellent accuracy can be had if the rifling was carefully done.  Our 1/6 scale 100 Pdr. Parrott gets 2.5" to 3.0" five shot groups at 100 yds. all day long.  The  7” Brooke Rifle  get a little better accuracy at 1.5" to 2.5" for  5 shot groups at 100.  We have recovered these from 800 to 2,200 yards beyond the target.  Our ultimate backstop is a 125 foot high, hill at just over two miles at 3,500 yards.  The penetration of these steel projectiles is pretty impressive.  We have measured 29” penetration in solid, white pine logs and the Brooke has penetrated a  1.0” thick piece of steel boiler plate with a special 1,700 FPS proof load.
T&M

[Double D]

Please do test the zinc..want me to send you three feet of 1 1/4"?

I think the first problem in considering reuse with zinc bolts will be finding them...I don't believe they will survive the impact.

[Max Caliber]

Have any of you shot a lot of zinc bolts from a rifled barrel? I have heard that it leaves a mess in the bore after a lot of shooting that is hard to remove.

[seacoastartillery]

     Thanks Double D.; send it down.  These bullets are about 2.25" long so we should be able to get two five shot groups from that rod.  We are still curious as to the cost of zinc rods of that dia.?   The 1.25" dia. 12L14 rods that we buy cost about $1.00 per pound, purchased locally.  The Brooke bolts are 9 oz. each, so seeing as we buy 100 Lbs. at a time, that allows us to turn 175 bolts from $100 of material or 57 cents each.  How does that compare to the cost of zinc rods of that size?  How does that compare to the cost of lead these days? 

Tracy and Mike

[Cat Whisperer]

Don't forget to figure in labor.

[Double D]

     Thanks Double D.; send it down.  These bullets are about 2.25" long so we should be able to get two five shot groups from that rod.  We are still curious as to the cost of zinc rods of that dia.?   The 1.25" dia. 12L14 rods that we buy cost about $1.00 per pound, purchased locally.  The Brooke bolts are 9 oz. each, so seeing as we buy 100 Lbs. at a time, that allows us to turn 175 bolts from $100 of material or 57 cents each.  How does that compare to the cost of zinc rods of that size?  How does that compare to the cost of lead these days? 

Tracy and Mike

There is a link to the rotmetal site in my previous post.  http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/zincextrudedrods.htm.  $5.99.  Extruded rod 1 1/4" $5.99 a foot, $9.57 a foot extrude.

Tim, I never figure labor in the cost of cast bullets, it would depress me.  I could buy loaded ammo cheaper. My labor is worth far to much to be be computed.

One thing I would figure is the wear factor from shooting steel projectiles in my fancy expensive rifled barrel liner. That is the one down side to this.  I know it is a factor in military barrels.

Although the barrels we are discussing here would probably not be used in  N-SSA, ferrous projectiles are not allowed in that game.  Nothing said about their use in AAA.

My bigger concern is the wear on the barrel from steel on steel...of course I don't know that zinc would be any gentler.

[seacoastartillery]

Don't forget to figure in labor.

 
 
 You're kidding right?  Do you count the cost of your labor in reloading ammo for those regular rifle matches that you compete in?  No, of course not.  It's a hobby.
 
 
      Double D.       We will test the cast zinc rods, but at $2.50 per Lb. instead of $1.00, the turned zinc bolts will really have to show some spectacular results.  And we better not see any in the rifling after the two groups are shot.  Thanks Max, we will be looking.  Don't ever make the mistake of lubricating expanding skirt sabot bolts such as we are talking about here.  We passed that test when we answered, "No, we don't."  in 2006.  The Paulsen Bros. asked us if we oiled or greased our bolts before shooting them when we visited in Dec. of that year.  They said, "Good, don't ever do that."  We asked why.  "They will skid, failing to take the rifling immediately, as they should."
 
      Also, as to your concern over wearing out your expensive rifled sleeve, don't worry about that.  We worried too, but for nothing as it turned out.  We had 160 of the steel whistlers down range before we sold the last of those 100 Pdr. Parrotts we built, so we had new unfired rifling right next to the company gun with quite a bit of use with steel bullets.  The used tube looked brighter, more polished and the sharp edges of the rifling were softened a bit, but after looking closely through a 10X Loop, we could see nothing but a .005" to .010" radius on the driving side of each land, no damage anywhere.  Plus the accuracy had actually improved right up to the 160 rounds shot, mark.  Then we began to think about all those Civil War guns which used wrought iron sabots, literally thousands.  Most lasted way beyond what we will ever shoot, 1,100 rounds plus, most were very accurate right up until they blew at 1,300, 1,800 or 4,000 plus rounds fired.  So, in the words of Alfred E. Newman, "What, me worry?"
 
 Tracy

[Cat Whisperer]

quote author=Cat Whisperer link=topic=209437.msg1099408675#msg1099408675 date=1320714817]
 
 Don't forget to figure in labor.   

 You're kidding right?  Do you count the cost of your labor in reloading ammo for those regular rifle matches that you compete in?  No, of course not.  It's a hobby.
 
 ...
 Tracy

NO, not kidding.

I reaload because I can produce MORE ACCURATE ammo than factory (most ANY fool can).

The choice was between cast and machined - if I can make 1" diameter bullets using LESS of my time (given the same relative accuracy [if that is important]) then I will choose the time-efficient method so that I can do something else with the rest of my time.

TIME is the most important commodity that I (we) have.  There is a reason that I don't watch TV - the one-eyed bandit that steels your time and turns your mind to jelly.   

[seacoastartillery]

     Oh, it's a time-on-task thing and not a dollar thing.  I must agree with you 100% there, Tim.  As far as TV is concerned, I watch about 5 minutes a day, 5 days a week. I have to have a Megan Kelly fix (FOX NEWS) every morning to get the old heart rate up so I can face the rest of the day!!  No, I'm not kidding!

Tracy

[Cat Whisperer]

 

[Double D]

There is some awful good information on Television these days shame to ingnore any source of education.  Bet when we find out when National Georgraphic channel will show the shoot last spring Tim will jump right in there to see him self.

[Victor3]

 M&T,
 
 1" lead if I were to get one. Any plans for a heavy wall blank bbl (like 1" bore x 3" OD) in the near future?

[seacoastartillery]

     Victor3,    Please tell us how long you want your tube to be.  Also tell us will a reamed ID of 1.006" to 1.014" be acceptable.  If you are making your own bullet mold for lead as we suspect, it should be no problem.  We have a supplier which can get us CDS in 3" OD X 1"ID.
Cold Drawn Seamless in 1020 or 1026 low carbon steel is rated about 2 to 3 times the strength of grey iron.  Give us this info and we will see if what we call a "Cannon Blank" can be had for a reasonable cost.  Maybe, Maybe not.
 
     Pete, give us specifics; we can figure your costs too.

Thank you.

Mike and Tracy

[Cat Whisperer]

There is some awful good information on Television these days shame to ingnore any source of education.  Bet when we find out when National Georgraphic channel will show the shoot last spring Tim will jump right in there to see him self.

IF I'm in it, I hope someone will put it on a DVD for me.   

[seacoastartillery]

     Victor3,    Please tell us how long you want your tube to be.  Also tell us will a reamed ID of 1.006" to 1.014" be acceptable.  If you are making your own bullet mold for lead as we suspect, it should be no problem.  We have a supplier which can get us CDS in 3" OD X 1"ID.
Cold Drawn Seamless in 1020 or 1026 low carbon steel is rated about 2 to 3 times the strength of grey iron.  Give us this info and we will see if what we call a "Cannon Blank" can be had for a reasonable cost.  Maybe, Maybe not.
 
     Pete, give us specifics; we can figure your costs too.

Thank you.

Mike and Tracy 

     I almost forgot to ask you fellows, what type of rifling would you be happy with?  I'm sure you realize that if you would be happy with either Parrott, square groove/land rifling or Brooke modified Hook Slant rifling then we would not have to create new cutters which would increase costs.  Also, if you are going with lead bolts or minie type bullets, then there would be no reason to be restricted to exactly 1".  If the size was 1.050" or 1.067 or 1.167" it really wouldn't cause a problem and the lead bullet mold would be designed to throw appropriate size bullets for that specific size bore.  This would further reduce your cost as an expensive, slightly reduced size rifling head would not have to be created, a $1,200 item (Parts and labor).  Save more moola.

What say you?

Tracy

[Victor3]

 So many boxes to check off. 
 
 For ease of production, I assume you'll be making all of the ~1" liners/blanks the same bore dia, rifling, etc. (Seems that would be one way to keep cost down)?
 
 If so, are you wanting to get an idea of a 'standard' bore that should work well with most projectile types/weight/material? Maybe something like this...
 
 1) 1.014" bore so you can make with the tooling you have on hand
 2) Groove dia .030" larger than land
 3) Square cut rifling
 4) 1:48 twist
 
 There's a method to my madness here; I believe that the above should be a good compromise for most projectiles you mentioned previously but will also work with a patched 1" lead or steel ball. 
 
You guys, being of the elite class, can have any type of mould or projectile you want with a side of caviar. However, not everyone has a lathe to turn bolts or can afford to have a custom mould made.
 
 Power to the 99%. Occupy Seacoast Artillery. Peace out. 

[little seacoast]

Sure we could occupy them but I still wouldn't know how to make any of this neat stuff. Respect to this 1%!

[jamesfrom180]

I do hate to clutter up such a fine informational thread as this with pointless wit.  But claiming to occupy anyone especially those who have knowledge of siege craft or weaponry is a fools errand.  Much rather have them on my side. 

Very nice work M&T!!!!

[Cannoneer]

That's right Dr. Watson, from now on you'd better check your warped sense of humor at the door, that is if you know what's good for ya.

[little seacoast]

M&T it just occurred to me that the small tube we were discussing, a Dom Sawyer barrel with 1.060" bore 12.75" long probably could be rifled as is without a liner.  1018 steel and plenty beefy. Would this be a possibility?  Sure would bring the materials cost down a little.