The Right of Israel to Exist

[SHOOTALL]

Eddie, that's cause church is like family, not a corporation. We'd like everyone to be in the family but we don't ask anyone to check their minds at the door. Were all growing up together.

YEP. POWDERMAN. 

Guess its hard to tell with some churches these days

[nw_hunter]

Eddie, that's cause church is like family, not a corporation. We'd like everyone to be in the family but we don't ask anyone to check their minds at the door. Were all growing up together.

Which family?

* 1 Catholicism
          o 1.1 Roman Catholic Church
                + 1.1.1 Latin Rite
                + 1.1.2 Eastern Catholic Churches
          o 1.2 Eastern Orthodox Church
          o 1.3 Oriental Orthodox Church
          o 1.4 Assyrian Church of the East
          o 1.5 Anglican Communion
          o 1.6 Other churches self-identified as Catholic
                + 1.6.1 Independent
                + 1.6.2 Orthodox
                      # 1.6.2.1 Byzantine
                      # 1.6.2.2 Oriental
                      # 1.6.2.3 Western-Rite
                + 1.6.3 Assyrian
                + 1.6.4 Anglican
    * 2 Protestantism
          o 2.1 Pre-Lutheran Protestants
          o 2.2 Lutheranism
          o 2.3 Anglican Churches
          o 2.4 Reformed Churches
          o 2.5 Presbyterianism
          o 2.6 Congregationalist Churches
          o 2.7 Anabaptists
          o 2.8 Brethren
          o 2.9 Methodists
          o 2.10 Pietists and Holiness Churches
          o 2.11 Baptists
                + 2.11.1 Spiritual Baptists
          o 2.12 Apostolic Churches - Irvingites
          o 2.13 Pentecostalism
          o 2.14 Charismatics
                + 2.14.1 Neo-Charismatic Churches
          o 2.15 African Initiated Churches
          o 2.16 United and uniting churches
          o 2.17 Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
          o 2.18 Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement
          o 2.19 Southcottites
          o 2.20 Millerites and comparable groups
                + 2.20.1 Sabbath Keeping Churches, Adventist
                + 2.20.2 Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Non-Adventist
                + 2.20.3 Sunday Adventists
                + 2.20.4 Sacred Name Groups
          o 2.21 British-Israelism
          o 2.22 Miscellaneous/Other
    * 3 Latter Day Saints
          o 3.1 "Prairie Saint" denominations
          o 3.2 Rocky Mountains denominations
          o 3.3 Other denominations
    * 4 Nontrinitarian groups
          o 4.1 Oneness Pentecostalism
          o 4.2 Unitarianism and Universalism
          o 4.3 Bible Student groups
          o 4.4 Swedenborgianism
          o 4.5 Other non-Trinitarians
    * 5 Messianic Judaism
    * 6 New Thought
    * 7 Syncretistic religions incorporating elements of Christianity
    * 8 Esoteric Christianity
   





What Is A Church?

When I was a young lad growing up in the rural south, I was taught in Sunday school,
A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, brought together, under Christ, for His purposes.
   
There are sooooooooooo many church denominations in the US alone, that squabble over interpretations of the Bible. It's understandable few will agree on this forum.

Some preach and teach we must speak in tongues. Some teach we should worship on Saturday.Some baptize by sprinkling, some say ..........Nope! not good enough. Must go under to be fully baptized! Some still believe, even if they no longer practice it, having more than one wife. (I cannot imagine living with two Polly's) Al tho one is good

Years ago, I accepted Jesus Christ as MY  personal savior, and that's all that matters to me.

As far as this thing between the Israelis and Arabs! Let them work it out, and try to take care of the problems we have at home, and let the rest of the world do the same.



 

[ironglow]

NW hunter;
  As I have long said, and have repeated often; "denominations are man-made things" (IMO). The Gospel, or good news is almost entirely contained in one verse;  John 3:16 . certainly, John chapter 3 will furnish all which is needed. Perhaps repentance could be stressed a bit more, but then one would not be coming to the Savior without first understanding the need for repentance.
    Extra rules come through denominations (IMO)..wear this, don't wear that, sing only these hymns, official prayers, repeated pledges, dues being sent first regional ..then to national headquarters. Worse than denomnination domination would be a local cult or cult-like body.
  That is one with a charismatic leader who, usually with henchmen, try to rule every facet of the member's lives.
  Indeed, Jesus sets us free..free to be a whole person, free to follow his leading, free be a Christian in every sense of the word and free to live an upright, honest, unselfish life. His word says if we don't want this kind of freedom...we're free to leave.

   Once truly committed to Christ (not to any man or organization), it is most imperative to delve directly into his word..as the Bereans did, and in that way keep from any error. (Matt 26:56, John 5:39 and 2 Tim 2:15)

[teamnelson]

A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, brought together, under Christ, for His purposes.

That's the one, and it goes by many of the names you listed above.

As Christians we don't just have Jesus as our personal savior & Lord, we have a community - a kingdom - of which we're a part. That's why we meet together, worship, fellowship, discipleship ... like family. Sadly, like all families, we have our share of idiots. We have a few that never come 'round to family events, but still claim the family name. We have some that want to run the family, some that want to split the family, some that try to grow the family; we've got a lot that just show up and eat the food. We can't all fit in the same house, so we have a lot of them scattered around which has made it difficult to figure out who is really family, and who wants all the benefits of family without being a part of the family. We don't get to pick family, do we? But you still have to love them ... because they're family.

[williamlayton]

Such is the joy of liberty under Christ. We all see questions in the scriptures--and we seek answers to these questions.
The liberty is that they do not effect/affect salvation and we can associate as we wish.
I agree with Dee and Tn and find areas of disagreement.
Blessings

[ironglow]

TN;
  You said that with clarity and eloquence..we are "family". Some "sticketh closer than a brother", others not so close..and some families even have a "black sheep"..the one everybody wishes would "get it !"....but still family.

[ironglow]

Such is the joy of liberty under Christ. We all see questions in the scriptures--and we seek answers to these questions.
The liberty is that they do not effect/affect salvation and we can associate as we wish.
I agree with Dee and Tn and find areas of disagreement.
Blessings

   Amen, brother..

[blind ear]

TN, you do ask them to check thier minds at the door, "you will be saved by faith alone". eddie

[SHOOTALL]

Look at it another way , any and every country's right to exist is based on its ablity to protect itself . Israel seems to have it covered .

[Swampman]

"The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations."~John Adams~

[bigMikeA]

Look at it another way , any and every country's right to exist is based on its ablity to protect itself . Israel seems to have it covered .

That, I think, pretty much sums it up.  Excellent post SHOOTALL

[williamlayton]

Eddiejr
Do you understand what faith is?
Blessings

[Dee]

Well, we have drifted a long ways from the topic of the thread. Won't be long now.

[teamnelson]

Look at it another way , any and every country's right to exist is based on its ablity to protect itself . Israel seems to have it covered .

Excellent point. The arguments against the existence of Israel normally are aimed at the religious arguments first - TM7's usual approach. Failing that, the fall back is that Israel would not exist without the support of the US and the UK who foisted them onto Palestine. Since the same could be said of most of the nations of the world including the US (i.e. foreign intervention, foisted onto a native population) then that begs the question of any nation's right to exist. So we're left with SHOOTALL's argument - ability to protect itself. Is that not the essence of natural law? The right to life, liberty and the means to protect both?

That's why I say the "religious" argument for the establishment of the nation of Israel, while interesting, is not necessary as there are many who disagree with Judaeo Christian worldviews. But what they should all agree upon is the natural argument, or else they expose themselves as hypocrites as they are unwilling to extend rights they enjoy personally, to others.

[Swampman]

There's no such thing as Palestinians.  I don't really care what happens to the people that call themselves Palestinians.  They are just trouble makers.   

[Dee]

Tn, I am inclined to agree with all said in your last post, as it is the REAL MEAT OF THE MATTER on this topic. Reluctantly I am also inclined to agree will all said in Swampy's last post. They are just trouble makers, and sometimes you just have to shoot them, as they will not cease and desist. This type of trouble maker actually doesn't understand much else, but he does understand that.

[williamlayton]

Opinions vary--and that is as it should be.
We will see--well some will see.
Israel will survive because of the power of God. Will it be the geographic area God promised? I believe so.
It will also be the people of God's choosing.
Blessings

[FourBee]

- TM7's usual approach. Failing that, the fall back is that Israel would not exist without the support of the US and the UK who foisted them onto Palestine.

So we're left with SHOOTALL's argument - ability to protect itself.

Although the US and UK were the major players in bringing Israel to Palestine, they were merely the pawns used by a much greater power of which the Holy Scriptures foretold of this historical event.   As far as their (Israel) rights to exist depends soley upon protection, which again comes from that supernatural power from on High, the most High God, the Almighty God, He is God, who can fight against him?

Revelation 19:
11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:

[Swampman]

Swampy's last post is not only historically and Biblicaly totally incorrect...it is also the succinct dialogue of those engaged in and justifying genocide. The region, Palestine, existed long before the word israel was coined and long before judiasm 'evolved' from paganism and jews forced to flee or killed each other off; and will exist long after political zio israel is gone. The Promise of a Holy Land for all creeds and peoples will remain.

..TM7
.

Just more pagan crap that your mentor dreamed up.

[jimster]

I got the same deal when I posted pretty much what Swampy posted.  I even gave dates and times of history,  Swampy is really right on the money...

There's no such thing as Palestinians.

Everyone knows where the word Palestine came from...the Romans....who also wanted all the Jews to suffer.

Egyptians and Hebrews pretty much predate anyone out that way.

Anyways....as  TeamNelson pointed out, why does any of this matter at all?

The right to exist depends on protecting themselves. These so called Palestinians can't even protect themselves from themselves...Murderous thugs, ran and supported by murderous thugs.  They kill each other when nothing else is close enough.  

It don't matter who was where first...if it did, we would have to move too.  
 

[powderman]

tm. You well know where the name palestinian comes from but choose instead to deny and offer more untruths.
SWAMPMAN. Right you are. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  the pressing question...Can the Jews defend themselves ? They can and will , with God's supernatural help.
  We have a flotilla coming to challenge Israel's right to exist again. The Persians (Iran) are sending a ship of their own and warning Israel to back down, when their ship shows up...lay down their weapons and allow the Iranian (Persian) ship to pass.
      I shall borrow from the Texicans with their cannon at the Battle of Gonzales, who borrowed a slogan from the Spartans at Thermopylae..when they faced the Persians..who back then demanded they lay down their arms..
          
       ....Israel will likely say "COME AND TAKE THEM" ....

[Swampman]

There is no "new covenant" there is just the Bible.  It is the teachings of Christ from cover to cover.

[powderman]

tm. You continually ignore facts and real history and continue to spew anything you can to deny that Israel has the right to exist, and completely deny that God, the real one, protects and blesses them. You are becoming a bore and are not worth my time. Good luck in your fantasy world, you look, but refuse to see. If you knew anything about Jesus you wouldn't ask such stupid questions.  POWDERMAN.  

[Swampman]

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."~Proverbs 26:4

[williamlayton]

TM
You ask questions of which there are answers but not in the way you want God too answer them.
God has a way and a plan. Like the withered arm he gave no explanation how.
As far as killing goes, what the heck are you referring too? Is it all wars? The Lord knows what and who and chooses who and when, then He declares when it all will end and you want to set your clock. Your mind is not in the same league or on the same level.
God doesn't care if you want too know the details.
Think upon Trust.
Blessings

[billy_56081]

TM will you stop at nothing to spew your antisemetic hatred? Seriously you are becoming a broken record. You spew anything no matter how vague the source as gospel when it fits your hatred of Jews. Do not try to dispute that yopu have an antisemetic ghatred, you prove me correct daily.

No matter how we answer your question, you will sidestep with more of your silly hate mongering. You are not a Christian, and are only trying to further your hatred of the Jews.

My Cristian beliefs have very little to do with my support of Israel, I not being blinded by antisemetic hate, can see that Israel as a nation is doing good in the region. They have carved a wonderful place out of the desert. Israel is not and has not been the aggressor in countless wars and attacks that have been launched against them. It only takes common sence to see who is the good a nd who is the bad in the middle east. From your comments on this 4000 watts death ray that ran on AA batteries I can see you have none.

[Dee]

There is no "new covenant" there is just the Bible.  It is the teachings of Christ from cover to cover.

Swampy there ya go thinkin again.

For anyone wantin the truth, here it is in lue of Swampy's imaginary ramblings.

A New AND BETTER Covenant Hebrews Chapter 8 verses 8 & 13, and Hebrews Chapter 12 verse 24.

[Swampman]

Hasn't happened yet.  Modern dogma just don't cut it.  Try again.

[Dee]

Swampy you are at times truly clueless. I can't even get aggravated at ya. As you know I don't debate the Bible. I'll just let everyone that wants the truth to read it themselves, and gave them the Book, chapter and verse. It is as clear as a church bell, except possibly at your house.