AR vs CZ527 in 223

[teamnelson]

I'm not intending to start the endless battle ... I have a very specific question. I have a 629 that I'm not overly attached to, and I've had a hankering for a carbine in .223 for a survival application.

Don's thread on rifle cartridges got me thinking, reading, etc. And I'm liking the CZ 527 Carbine in .223/5.56, reliable action, common caliber, handy balance, and I've got chamber adapters that'd work well for .22lr and wmr. I like the looks of the CZ. But ... and this is nearly heresy for me to admit ... its got me thinking about ARs again. Somebody quick talk me back from the brink.

[Couger]

AR's have their place!  Don't doubt that.  Or your needs and tastes in guns.

I see a need for both types.

For that proverbial rainy decade when we're reliving the village green scene (and 19 April 75, or whatever the correct year was), I'd go with a 20in AR personally (to backup my FAL) also having a 16in upper if I needed it and could afford it!  But instead of a bolt gun (for survival) I'd rather have a T/C Encore or more likely an NEF/H&R Handi-Rifle (SB2 not SB1) with four barrels!

12 gauge 22in Topper bbl, modified
.30/06 w/ 4X or small variable scope with backup receiver sights installed
a reare and difficult to find .22LR "Versa Pack" barrel
and a .223 bbl!  similarly set up like the .30/06, but with good, inexpensive (if thats possible) a 2X7X or 3X9X scope.  I usually like Leupold's but might buy a VX-1 instead of a VX-2 or VX-3.

I'm also send McAce on order the next couple of days, which will include a couple .308/.30-06 chamber adaper similar to what the Navy used post WWII when they wanted their Garand's to shoot .308W instead of .30/06.

AR's haver their place!  And currently CCDN is selling C-Product 30rndrs for $69.99 for 10mags!

The M527 is a cute boltgun, but I'd apply it to the hunting fields.  My philosophy with the HandiRifle is that I can have a switchbarrel singleshot  cheaper than a coule of scoped boltguns.  Plus if the Handi got stolen confescated or destroyed, I doubt all barrels would also be lost, and could be applied to other folks with SB2 Handi frames!

[don heath]

Check the twist on the CZ... I didn't have the latest American Model but SAAMI specifies 1:12 for .223 - and the CZ rifle I stripped to build up one of the others had a 1:12 twist and a .223 rem chamber.

1) You need a 5,56 chamber
2) You need a minimum of a 1:9 twist and preferably 1:8 (or 1:7)

This means a rebarreling job- which is fine- Get a hammer forged, chrome lined barrel with a mil spec 5,56 chamber and get the gunsmith to set the head space on the tight side etc.

In an AR...you can buy a Daniel Defence AR that meets these requirements without having to build it up. You can buy a sabre defence upper with a SS 20" barrel that will shoot sub moa...guaranteed - more like 1/2moa with MK 262 ammo.

I intrinsically prefer a bolt action as a survival rifle- it certainly stops one wasting ammo- after five rounds I have to pause! You can use all sorts of ammo with no reliability issues etc and if the stuff is corrosively primed...who cares, pour boiling water down the barrel and clen it like I grew up doing with the .303...cleaning an AR used with crap ammo is a hand stand! Also, A bolt action looks less 'thretening' to law enforcement types...but is really just as effective - in defence or hunting. You never, ever fire for supressive effect in defence!

[schoolmaster]

I handled a new AR in the gunshop last week and they are surprisingly light, well balanced, and my friend has a bull barreled one that shoots .25 at 100 yards. You can get any trigger on them you want. I am slowly being pulled toward the dark side.

[burntmuch]

Ive been fighting the AR bug for a couple years now. Just never could afford it... Ive got a couple bolt guns I could sell to finance one. Just couldnt bring my self to do it. Ive got a rem 700 1''12 twist in 223 that shoots better than I can . up to 52 grain bullets. Thats gonna have to be good enough for me. Plus if Im in a fight. Im not grabbing this gun. Ive got guns better suited for a fight. Would I love to have an AR , sure, but not this year. My kids gotta get fed.  Maybe next year. Plus if SHTF Im sure there will some ARs to be found lying about.

[teamnelson]

I'm also send McAce on order the next couple of days ...

Couger, if you get through to McAce let me know. I tried to get ahold of them several times with no luck. Tried writing their webmaster too.

[teamnelson]

And for all the reasons Don mentioned, and Couger with the handi, I like things other than ARs, and as burntmuch mentioned, I'm convinced there will be more than a few that haven't been broke in yet lying around. I've got a lot of options for the short game that I much prefer over an AR. But I've got a gap in my long game for a shtf scenario, and I want to stay true to my values when it comes to gun selection (i.e. multi-generational reliability with minimal maintenance (zero access to parts), and comfortably operated by non-shooters of smaller stature).

Appreciate the feedback ... the need to re-barrel isn't attractive though. If that's the case, I may go a different direction. I had read that some CZ's have shown up with a 1x9 which would be okay for the lighter loads, and better for the 75gr.

[Couger]

I'm also send McAce on order the next couple of days ...

Couger, if you get through to McAce let me know. I tried to get ahold of them several times with no luck. Tried writing their webmaster too.

Last year I bought 3X .30Carb to .308W adapters, just sent McAce Sports a $60 money order.  Less than 2 weeks later they arrived "muy pronto!"  I have no idea why the fellow won't use an email, but with a POSTAL MONEY ORDER, the "check" is guarenteed and uncle will investigate who gets and takes the funds if fraud is committed.


I'll let you know how it goes.   

DON'T OVERLOOK THE hANDI-rIFLES, too.

[mcwoodduck]

I have one of each.
The Cz is a great little rifle.
I like mine and it is what it is.
A magizine fed bolt action rifle.
the AR was about twice the price of my CZ 527.
I like both rifles.  I think they have different tasks.
The CZ is a hunting rifle.  It will take small game up to and through small deer and possibly larger with the propper bullets.
While the AR is capable of hunting as it launches the same bullets and I have hunted with it.
To me the AR is a target / defensive rifle.
I use mine in different target shoots from 3 gun to the Military rifle shoots.  mine does not wear optics other than I will stick a 4X Ar scope on the carry handle for bowling pins or ground squirrels.
The higher cyclic rate and the high capacity mag would make it a primary self defence rifle.  don't get me wrong I would not feel under guned with the CZ but the ar is clearly a better battle rifle.
When I brought it home and played with it a little it seemed like a big rifle - Similar to the garand.
When I put it in the safe next to the garand and the M1 Carbine I noticed it was 2" over all longer than the Carbine.  i was shocked at how it felt like a large rifle but was smallas the carbine with a 20" barrel wearing a 2" muzzle break.

The Cz does have advantages over the AR.
Fewer moving parts. 
Easier to clean.  Cleaning rod or drop string and a shirt tail will keep it going
lower profile.

AR Advantages:
Higher cyclic rate,
more rounds in the mag,
Mags are abundant.
parts are abundant.
You can build the rifle to your liking.

[Victor3]

... the need to re-barrel isn't attractive though. If that's the case, I may go a different direction. I had read that some CZ's have shown up with a 1x9 which would be okay for the lighter loads, and better for the 75gr.

 TN - I know at least one model of the 527 was (maybe still is) offered in 1:9. It was one of the clunkier models with a target stock, no sights and long bbl though. Older style with mag that extends below the stock.

 I was about to buy a Savage Mod 10 Precision Carbine in .223 recently ($689 at the time). A friend called to say he'd ordered one, so I'm waiting 'till August when he gets back so I can try it out.

[243dave]

Tikka T-3 lite can be had in a 1-8 twist and open sights can be as an option too.  Just a thought for around $600.    Dave

[LabRat2k3]

I don't know if they still make it or not but Remington use to make a pump action .223 that  used AR mags. It was the 7615, I think they had a 18 inch barrel and weighted around 7.5 to 8 pounds. Might be worth seeing if you could find one used if nothing else.

[teamnelson]

LabRat, accuracy on those 7615Ps is 2-3" at 100m, similar to a KelTec SU-16 or Saiga 223, and I've seen all 3 for similar prices (KelTec a little more). I'm really looking at the 300m+ range which is where the bolt or AR stand out.

Appreciate all the great info, gents!

[LabRat2k3]

Yes 2-3" at 100 yards is unacceptable.

[teamnelson]

Ok, so here's something that just hit me. I've been looking at fast twist heavy barrels ... however, for the survival application my goal was to use chamber adapters in 22 wmr and 22 lr, which would mean lighter bullets. What would a 1-9 twist do to a 40gr bullet - would it stabilize I wonder? Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[LabRat2k3]

Howa has a ranchland compact in .223. No detacable mag, and about a pound heavier, but has a houge stock and is about $200 less new. They say they will shoot MOA or better. I'm not sure of the rate of twist its not listed on their site.

[burntmuch]

TN my rem 700 1 in 12 twist would put 40 grain V maxes under 1/2 inch. the factory winchester 45 grain almost as good. under 3/4 inch. I ran out of the v-maxes. but Ive got a whole bunch of the Winchester factory stuff. I just started loading some 52 grain Nosler JHP. Only one range day so far. But it looks good. Im fairly new at the reloading, but I am under the impression that a 1 in 12 will stabilize up to 55 grain bullets. So a 1 in 9 will stabilize 60 grain bullet or so.. not sure on that.

[don heath]

1:9 is a fair compromise...will shoot BT bullets up to 69grns.
A 1:7 twist shoots 55grn bullets just fine. Lighter tend to come appart.

My MAIN reason for going with the fast 1:7 twist was simple...Hammer forged, chrome lined barrels in this configuration are available.  why this? Well, A decent chrome lined barrel is good for 25,000 rounds as oposed to 5000 from an unchromed bore. A 1:8 or 1:7 twist alows me to shoot 75grn Amax, 77grn Sierra's, 80grn Bergers: 70 grn Barnes TSX and  75grn Oryx. It is these bullets that turn a mouse gun into something that can reasonably cleanly take a deer, will hold against the wind well enough to make 300m shooting easy in most conditions and give me a 500m rifle on a good day. The last two bullets named will hold together well enough for bigger game - like kudu (elk) with good shot placement and certainly good enough for a bear if you are sitting up a tree and he is climbing up to talk to you .   

[jlwilliams]

  Not to throw a curve ball, but Savage has a new detachable mag bolt gun that I'm looking at for the same purpose.  It's new enough that I haven't heard feedback from people who bought them yet.  If it's as accurate as I hope it will be it may be the option for me.  I like CZ, but the Savage has a flush mount magazine which Ilike the look of.

  I have an AR and I like the AR for all of it's finer qualities, but you are right that the simplicity of a bolt action is atractive.

  I also have a Saiga which is a great knock around gun.  Fun to shoot and rugged as a brick.  It's a little limited in it's accuracy, like TN pointed out.  It's still a great gun, but it's only really good within it's limitations.  I look at it as being equivalent to a Mini 14.  The Mini used to be a reasonable gun for reasonable money.  Now they are unreasonable money, so the Saiga is now what the Mini was.  The Saiga is also tollerant to 'plinker grade' ammo.  Years ago I stocked up on a bunch of Wolf 223 ammo because it seemed like a good idea.  AR takes enough time to clean with good ammo, so I bought the Saiga in part as a platform to use the dirty Wolf ammo.  A little off topic, but I guess I felt like typing it.

[Couger]

Ok, so here's something that just hit me. I've been looking at fast twist heavy barrels ... however, for the survival application my goal was to use chamber adapters in 22 wmr and 22 lr, which would mean lighter bullets. What would a 1-9 twist do to a 40gr bullet - would it stabilize I wonder? Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree.  

TeamNelson,  If I may throw out a couple ideas .....  (and not trying to hijack the thread)

My experience with chamber adapters is still quite limted (was wondering about the rimfire adapters myself!), but are you trying to "do too much" with a fast-twist .223 of some kind?  And those adapters?  

What about having a standard .223R longgun in a bolt or semi that's a 1-9 or 1-8 twist, but also a .223R single shot like a Contender?  Or Encore?  Thats partly the solution i've come up with besides having a couple NEF Handi's.  If it sounds like too many pieces, they're for more than one person!

There's also another solution as well ...... What about developing a reloadable small game load (maybe with the .223 case, or a .22Hornet or .218Bee?) similar to a .22LR or magnum (in velocity with a 44 to 60 grain lead boolit)  that uses TrailBoss? or a few grains (literally 2 to 5) of Unique, RedDot or BlueDot?  etc.

I like the idea of the McAce adapters that are .30 or .35/.38 caliber (for the .30/30, .308W, .30/06, .38Spl, etc and loading them down to small game performance) , but to dischage the rimfire adaters - they depend on the host centerfire weapon giving perfect performance with a really strong firing pin that can propel the block-firing pin in the rear of the adapter to have enough force to 'discharge' the rimfire round!  [personally] I don't want to have to depend on that!

My solution is to develope that SG .22H or .218 load.   Anmd if those .224CF's are too tedious or persnickity to reload, there's also a round like the .25-20Win!  That made a great smallgame cartidge in its day.

I wouldn't try to discourage anyone from getting a .223 in any configuration he might think he needs, but there's a huge casm to bridge between a .22 Long Rifle or WMR and the .223R (or .221FB, .222, .222M).  Hence my interest in .218B and .25-20W, which use the same parent case!, BTW.

[don heath]

It is interesting what we all consider important- eg .22LR converter for .223. In 1984 6 of us set out to drive from Zimbabwe, via the congo, CAR and the Sudan to see the pyramids. Taking a gun along was out of the question- so I took a Russian Drulov .22LR target pistol. These are a) Cheep, b) very Accurate, c) simple thumb operated bolt action d) dirt simple to build in an integral silencer and e) the grip was just right to fit a wire stock off a marlin game getter. Made for a handy 10"pistol that turned into a short rifle with wire stock and was quieter than my webley air pistol.

Some rebel in the south Sudan probably still has it

My main point is, you built/buy the very best firearm for the job you want it to do - and no firearm is any better than the sights.

If I need a rifle, I need a proper rifle, capable of doing everything asked of a center fire rifle. If I want a .22 for small game hunting, then a single shot target pistol with wire stock weighs little and will perform better than a makeshift on a rifle. 

[teamnelson]

Yeah, I think all the discussions have just reconfirmed the G2 contender in 223 I already have fills the bill. Just looking for an excuse for a new gun, but I think I'll pick another project afterall. Thanks for the chat!

[don heath]

G2...I enjoy mine alot!

But if you need a project then there is almost nothing to beat the AR15 (even the STI/SV colt upgrades have nothing on the options available for the AR)...You will always have another add on or different part part to try...torches, sights cqb...set up, long range varmit set up, 6,8 SPC upper ...30 whisper top if you want to get a silencer....the options are endless...better than teaching a man to fish...just buy him an AR and you will know what to get him for birthdays/Christmas for the rest of his life  (am there!! I shoot IPSC!!!!now if only they did the sling like...dang but are there options!

[LabRat2k3]

Yes, my AR is my grown up Lego set. I can snap pieces on and off to make all kinds of neat toys. I'm only limited by my imagination and my budget, well mostly my budget. Still need a Grendel upper, and a 450, oh and a suppressed 300 whisper would be sweet, and, and, and...

[Couger]

Yeah, I think all the discussions have just reconfirmed the G2 contender in 223 I already have fills the bill. Just looking for an excuse for a new gun, but I think I'll pick another project afterall. Thanks for the chat! 

In a Contender (or possibly an Encore) I would have a 1-9 twist .22LR barrel for shooting the 60grn Aguila SSS loads and standard 40grn loads,

a 1-9 .223Rem,

a .25-20Win,

and a .30-30 or .308W barrel depending on the frame (Contender vs. Encore).

Of course a .410 or 20ga bbl would be nice to have too. 

If I had to limit myself to a (Contender not Encore) .30-30 I might also consider a .357Mag or .357Maxi bbl too. 

Most if not all barrels would be the 16inch legal (and "functional" for the cartridge) minimum.

I agree with Don's philosophies almost completely.  My singleshots are special [multi]purpose pieces I'll have "special" ammo for.

I see a need to have "reloadable" ammo, hence my interest in the 'Bee' and .25-20.  I was considering the .22-KHornet, but like the original Hornet brass is very thin and hence delicate, and VEEEERY persnickity oftimes to reload accurately.

However if I couldn't have all those extemporaneous possibilities, I'd strive to make-do with only a reduced .38Spl reduced (squibb-type) load, and something similar in the .308W, and maybe even something in the .223 (for smalgame but also "sniping").

Digressing .....

In the old Handloader Digest #10 from around 1970-1971, there was an article where a fellow devised an array of special [survival] loads for his .444Marlin levergun.

[jlwilliams]

  Can't go wrong with the Contender, especialy if you already own it  .  As much as an excuse to buy another gun is an excuse worth contemplating there is wisdom to keeping your cash in your pocket.

  TN, have you ever seen .223 (or any 22 centerfire for that matter) adapted to 22 pellets?  They may be a good option for you to have the 223 and a small critter getter in one.  If you are unfamiliar with them, they are just a spent shell with a ring soldered into the neck so the pellet won't fall down all the way into the case.  You just put a primer into the case by hand then push the pellet into the neck.  It works better with a 22 hornet than it does with the 223 because of the longer neck but it's doable with the 223.  It shoots the pellet as fast as any pellet gun does and is quiet like a mouse fart.  Good for starlings, squirrels, pigeons and so forth.  It's nice to have an option that is safe to fire up into a tree that wouldn't stop a real rifle round.  Doesn't rip the small animals apart either.  Also doesn't require the $200 tax stamp to be quiet.

  You can buy them but I don't know where.  I've made some over the years.  Some I bored the back of the case out for 203 primers (more punch and easier to fumble with the fingers) but a small rifle primer will do fine.   You can get thin walled brass tube that just fits down the necks of the cases from hobby shops.

[JASmith]

My middle son has a CZ 527 Varminter with a 1-9 twist -- that rifle shoots well and ! and an AR-15 that works fine too.

Do you really have to choose between them?

[FourBee]

TN; I have both the CZ 527, and an AR15.  mcwoodduck is right about the cleaning, but that's no big deal.  If I had to choose between the two, I'd go with the AR just because I've always wanted one.  Right now sales are slowing some and prices are more tolerable. Keep your eyes open, you may find a real good deal.

4B

[Hooker]

This a tough one these to rifles are at completely different ends of the spectrum.
ARs can be as accurate as the bolt gun but the bolt gun will never have the firepower of the AR. With that the only issue would be reliability.
Given that I'll take the bolt gun over the autoloader, for run of the mill survival work.
Almost every thing I know about the AR/M16 I learn from the old man he was an armorer from 47- 73.
I wont use the colorful metaphors he used when describing the black rifle, but I'll list his three biggest concerns using a clean version of his words.

1- Anything that craps in it's own dinner plate should be put out of it's misery.

2- #1 causes the need to clean the rifle often, not a great attribute for a battle rifle.

3- Too many small parts to be cleaning the rifle in the field.

A good defensive weapon is not necessarily a good survival weapon.
If you have to defend your self from zombie hordes the AK47 goes bang almost every time and requires very little cleaning. Most AKs are capable 4 moa which is about average for the M16s we issue our troops and is quite acceptable accuracy for a battle rifle.

Pat   

[schoolmaster]

My solution was to purchase an Olympic Arms match AR-15. It is extremely accurate and has 1 in 9 twist for the 69 grain bullets.