Author Topic: So i'm hooked!!!  (Read 4552 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2010, 02:03:50 AM »
...
 If someone could please give specific point by point responses to the above, I'd greatly appreciate it.
...

Victor -
I'll comment on each of these later today, right now, I've got to go to work.
Thanks,
Tim K
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2010, 02:12:26 AM »
1:1 surely gives the safest design, especially if made in steel.  But the N-SSA practice, rules or no rules, allows old bronze barrels with walls as thin as .44:1 and at least implies they are safe if they pass inspection (whatever that entails.) 

The problem is that 1:1 makes for some really heavy barrels if the bore gets large; much heavier than original barrels.  Now if we could get people to keep accurate records and retire the barrels after a prudent number of shots, then they could build to a lesser standard (bronze guns typically were retired after 500 rounds.)
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline dominick

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
    • Black Powder Cannons & Mortars
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2010, 02:42:41 AM »
Above is the rest of the N-SSA rule that surrounds the first two bullets above, and there is where the ambiguity lies.  They state "Replicas of artillery pieces must duplicate original pieces" and "A cannon with a reduced bore is considered a scale replica gun, and is, therefore, not allowed."  By these rules, a M1857 Napoleon would not be acceptable as its 4.62" bore would demand a breech diameter of 13.75" (3 x 4.62) while the proper diameter of a full size Napoleon is only 11" (wall to chamber ratio of .76.)  A six pounder M1841 is 3.67" bore (3 x 3.67 = 11") but the tube over the chamber is only 9.8" diameter (wall to chamber ratio of .84), also deficient according to the rules.  A mountain howitzer's chamber diameter is 3.34" (3 x 3.34 = 10") but the exterior diameter over the chamber is only 6.3" (wall to chanber ratio of .44.)  All of these are commonly fired in N-SSA events, even originals with unknown firing histories.

How do these guns fire in N-SSA events?  They have an exception--"No reproduction barrel shall be approved after March 1, 1986, which does not have one caliber's thickness of metal surrounding the bore at the breech."  [My italics.]  

It seems like the rule author(s) want safety unless you are using an original barrel.  That makes a lot of sense.  Huh?  How can a well made all steel Napoleon reproduction be a lesser piece than an original soft bronze one?  How can an underbored piece be less safe than a full bore one?

We are led to believe that the 1:1 rule is gospel; yet they must think that no one else can read prints and do the math.    They undermine their position as an authority with rules such as this.  Should it be 1:1, .84:1, .76:1 or .44:1?  All these values are OK in certain guns, all of which are 90:10 bronze.

I think their rules need a bit more specificity.  It appears as if they allow less than one caliber barrel IF they are approved by an artillery officer. [See below]

"All reproduction barrels manufactured after March 1, 1986 must have pictures of the liner
and breech plug before and after welding. No reproduction barrel shall be approved after
March 1, 1986, that does not have one caliber’s thickness of metal surrounding the bore
at the breech unless approved by Artillery Ordnance Officer. (See figure 10.2 for
example.)"  

[emphasis added]

It makes no sense.  It shall not be approved unless it is approved by an officer?



Also, in the first part of section 10, NSSA rules it states four purposes. [See Below]   It appears that there are more considerations than only barrel thickness which I guess would be the "mechanical function" part of the criteria.

                                 "IMPORTANT NOTICE
"In this, and in all other sections and sub-sections of these Skirmish Rules, the term
“approved” by the N-SSA or its designated representative(s) shall mean that the
item in question has been found to meet the dimension, configuration, mechanical
function, and authenticity criteria
of the N-SSA. It does not in any way imply, or
infer, or guarantee the safety or the integrity of any particular item."

[Emphasis added]

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2010, 04:34:38 AM »
Douglas, this is not a personal attack but an discussion of the "standards" of the N-SSA regarding muzzleloading cannon.

"Actual or exact scale replicas of Civil War artillery pieces may be fired. The term 'Civil War' applies to any artillery piece whose model antedates April 26, 1865. Replicas of artillery pieces must duplicate original pieces.  ...

... A gun crew shall consist of a minimum of 4 members of the organization. Effective 1 February 1996, all artillery pieces must be originals or full-size, exact replicas to be approved.
a. Scale replicas currently having N-SSA approval, except those with tank-type rifling, may be sold or transferred to N-SSA members or organizations and continue to be used as long as they pass the inspection at the time of transfer. If a scale replica fails to pass inspection, or is not currently inspected, it shall be disqualified from further N-SSA competition.
b. A cannon with a reduced bore is considered a scale replica gun, and is, therefore, not allowed, unless already in N-SSA use as of February 1, 1996.
c. A reproduction of a rifled cannon must be rifled, unless already in N-SSA use as of February 1, 1996.
"

Above is the rest of the N-SSA rule that surrounds the first two bullets above, and there is where the ambiguity lies.  They state "Replicas of artillery pieces must duplicate original pieces" and "A cannon with a reduced bore is considered a scale replica gun, and is, therefore, not allowed."  By these rules, a M1857 Napoleon would not be acceptable as its 4.62" bore would demand a breech diameter of 13.75" (3 x 4.62) while the proper diameter of a full size Napoleon is only 11" (wall to chamber ratio of .76.)  A six pounder M1841 is 3.67" bore (3 x 3.67 = 11") but the tube over the chamber is only 9.8" diameter (wall to chamber ratio of .84), also deficient according to the rules.  A mountain howitzer's chamber diameter is 3.34" (3 x 3.34 = 10") but the exterior diameter over the chamber is only 6.3" (wall to chanber ratio of .44.)  All of these are commonly fired in N-SSA events, even originals with unknown firing histories.

How do these guns fire in N-SSA events?  They have an exception--"No reproduction barrel shall be approved after March 1, 1986, which does not have one caliber's thickness of metal surrounding the bore at the breech."  [My italics.] 

It seems like the rule author(s) want safety unless you are using an original barrel.  That makes a lot of sense.  Huh?  How can a well made all steel Napoleon reproduction be a lesser piece than an original soft bronze one?  How can an underbored piece be less safe than a full bore one?

We are led to believe that the 1:1 rule is gospel; yet they must think that no one else can read prints and do the math.    They undermine their position as an authority with rules such as this.  Should it be 1:1, .84:1, .76:1 or .44:1?  All these values are OK in certain guns, all of which are 90:10 bronze.


Simple George, those portion of the rules apply to guns that they allow in their competition and have nothing to do specifically with safety.   

If you wish to compete in their events you will need to get with them to see what you have to do to make a gun to qualify. 

Offline dominick

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
    • Black Powder Cannons & Mortars
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2010, 05:03:03 AM »

Simple George, those portion of the rules apply to guns that they allow in their competition and have nothing to do specifically with safety.  

If you wish to compete in their events you will need to get with them to see what you have to do to make a gun to qualify.  

Exactly my point too.  Their rules pertain to more than just barrel construction only.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2010, 05:15:08 AM »
So maybe we shouldn't be citing them as a safety reference.

No water pipe in any event.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2010, 06:33:00 AM »
So maybe we shouldn't be citing them as a safety reference.

No water pipe in any event.

Why not?  There rules and those of the AAA combined are dated but clear as regards to safety.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2010, 07:30:12 AM »

1) ...a 3/8" wall extruded seamless tube of the strongest and most appropriate steel comercially available would be considered safe for all liners, regardless of bore diameter, outer material of the barrel and total breech wall thickness?

You leave one factor out, maximum working pressure of the maximum recommend loads to be used.  Stronger is always better.  But even the strongest steel can be burst. But are the loads so strong that these super strong alloys are needed. Do we need something with greater than yield of 85,000psi? 

I think you are correct in citing that the N-SSA rules are vague in the reference to Minimum ANSI stand for extruded steel.  AAA does give a call of minimum burst strength.  We are left to guess whether ANSI had a minimum standard for all extruded steel tubes when the rule was written.  By today standards that's not how it was done.

Also the liner is not by itself the cannon. It is surrounded by metal, and that outer metal doesn't have zero resistance, it does offer resistance and the stress applied is reduced by the liner. Theory of lamination if I remember the 2 hour lecture in college 25 plus years ago.   

Quote
2) ...the N-SSA's incomplete description of breech plug construction (welding, fit, type of steel etc.) provides sufficient information for an accomplished machinist/welder unfamiliar with cannon construction and/or principles to build a safe barrel liner?

True enough, by the modern manufacturing standards and the description required in computer driven machining and drafting techniques these things need called out. When the rules were written Machinist and welders still thought for themselves and did not rely on engineers to tell them how to do their job.   That's not all bad.  The old way isn't all that great especially since the modern student of the art isn't able to understand what is meant and we aren't left to the hope the Machinist or Welder knows what to do.

Quote
3) ...the N-SSA's minimum 1" thick breech plug requirement provides sufficiently safe material in all bore sizes, considering the cast iron barrels that they allow?

Actually they say "at least one inch". Minumum would be a better word, but "at least" implies it could be less. And again have you considered the working pressures involved?  You say unsafe, but that is vague, unsafe at what pressure? 


Quote
4) ...the N-SSA's 'grandfathered in' original CW and other older unlined barrels of less than 1 cal breech thickness that they allow should be considered safe (I can't remember how many times I've heard here that smaller barrels fitting this description should be considered "open end pipe bombs")?

I don't think they say the old guns are unsafe, what they are saying is 1 cal. wall thickness is safer. They have increased the standard above the original standards. 

Muller in 1780 was calling for 1 caliber wall thickness of brass guns and 1 2/14th cal wall thickness in iron guns as standard practice. Surely adding a liner of modern steel and retaining 1 cal. or  1 2/14th cal increases the strength?

Quote
5) ...we should encourage someone interested in building a safe barrel to try to decipher the ambiguous, archaic and contradictory language within the N-SSA's rules?

 If someone could please give specific point by point responses to the above, I'd greatly appreciate it.[

Actually the practice has been to point to the rules of the AAA and the N-SSA-(Check the stickies), but more often it was just said N-SSA. I fail to see the safety aspect of either organization as ambiguous.  If you consider the fact they grandfather original barrels that don't meet the rules for newer and repaired guns an ambiguity, well okay, I'll agree, ambiguous. 

I really don't think they are saying the old guns made to the old safety standards are unsafe,they are saying the guns made to the newer standard are safer.  The problem that old guns cannot be lined and comply with the rules for competition is a self elimination rule. 

Sooner or later as the old guns fail inspection, they are going to have to deal with the fact that their guidelines eliminate new guns of the same pattern for competition.  That is for N-SSA and AAA to work out.   That has nothing to do with building a safe gun.

Quote
I never expect anyone to abandon something they've hung their hat on for many years, even in the face of logic and clear evidence. Human nature I guess, but hope springs eternal.

Border line cheap shot aside,  logic is only as good as the inferences it analyzes.  Evidence by itself can lead to inferences. If all evidence is not consider then the inference can be incorrect and lead to faulty logic. 

The  evidence you presented is interesting but is based on assumption, that pressure we are dealing with are high.  On what do you base that.
Volume 9, No 4, the Fall 1988 The Artilleryman has an article on the pressure tests of cannon loads, are you using that for reference?  I haven't read it for years and no longer have a copy...have one coming however. 

Should we make our own standards? Not on your life. 

Citing N-SSA and AAA Safety standards for construction is the safest way. I could collect the various standards from the two groups and list them with citation and put it in a sticky at the top of the board as George and Dom seem to be suggesting. That makes sense.




 

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2010, 04:07:36 PM »
I'll interject a little with my thoughts, though I know that's risky...

I consider the NSSA rules to not be guidelines for contruction, but only their guidelines for competition.

Dom chose to highlight part of the rules that I find quite useful in this conversation, but I think he highlighted the wrong part:

IMPORTANT NOTICE
In this, and in all other sections and sub-sections of these Skirmish Rules, the term
“approved” by the N-SSA or its designated representative(s) shall mean that the
item in question has been found to meet the dimension, configuration, mechanical
function, and authenticity criteria of the N-SSA. It does not in any way imply, or
infer, or guarantee the safety or the integrity of any particular item.


They make a point that they are trying to have as close to historical accuracy as possible, while having a reasonably safe time.  They have a history of having uneventful (safety wise) matches.  That doesn't mean they are safe.  That's the point some are trying to make.  In fact, the rules they set forth are written in such a way that makes it easy to enforce using simple inspection techniques, rather than examining the actual safety of the gun, which would require much more in depth knowledge of the design and material than what anyone could hope to acheive in a field setting.  

I would say that they are a good starting point, but since their rules don't really take into account the most important thing in a gun's construction, they have no hope but to present an ambiguous set of rules.  What is the most important design consideration in a gun barrel?  Simple...pressure.  The second I would propose would be stress, though let's just deal with the first for now.  The rules set forth by the NSSA don't mention any pressure or strength requirements for a barrel...save one - that the barrel meet the 1:1 ratio.  This is an ambiguous rule - not because the NSSA used it, but because they use it without documenting it.  This rule was around a long time before the NSSA, and was developed from experimentation rather than formulation, so it is by nature ambiguous.  It is, however, a tried and tested rule of thumb that is quite useful in modern cannon design.

Douglas, you make this same point:
Quote
Actually they say "at least one inch". Minumum would be a better word, but "at least" implies it could be less. And again have you considered the working pressures involved?  You say unsafe, but that is vague, unsafe at what pressure?
Just a side note - "at least" implies it could be more, not less.  My real point - everyone here is talking about pressure, but the NSSA doesn't.  Their rules make no claims as to what maximum pressures a cannon meeting their requirements can withstand, or what it's service life should be.  If they were consistant in utilizing the 1:1 rule, that still wouldn't give any indication as to when it's necessary to build beyond their minimums, since they make no qualifying statement as to the bore ranges their rules apply to - except that they be chosen in accordance with the original piece.

The argument that is being made is that the NSSA rules are inadequate due to their ambiguity and and a few assumptions they make that are undeclared.  They assume there's a limit to the overall bore of the cannon being shot at their matches, which is why they determined a fixed minimum size liner would suffice.  I don't think it's suitable for all bore sizes, though it may be suitable in the situation it is recommended for.  People choosing to build large bore cannon should definitely consider this to be a poorly written aspect of their rules, and adjust their design according to it's requirements.  

That they don't mention any specifics as far as suitable materials is a problem, considering the vast differences between the three classes of materials they list - steel, iron, and bronze.  Some alloys are ill suited for such use, though that becomes an issue of design as well - you can make a "safe" cannon out of a tree if you design it according to the material you are using.  Of course, since their rules are focused on maintaining close historical accuracy by way of having similar dimensions, this is a moot point.

Citing their rules as a guideline for design of a barrel (though I've done it in the past myself) gives them more credibility than they profess to posess - they themselves claim they aren't guaranteeing safety, but as we recommend them to new builders, we claim they are ideal guidelines for a safe cannon.  As I said, they are a good starting point, but they just don't give sufficient qualifiers for the requirements they set forth.  I think the principles they use to establish their rules are sound, but overall, after examining them more in depth over the last couple of weeks, I agree that they shouldn't be used as a guideline for manufacture unless further conditions are placed on them, such as bore range, specified materials, etc.

Douglas,

One further note - it may seem that a few people are ganging up on you, but that is not the case.  You have been using the best published source you could find for a reference, and there are some of us that see some issues with that reference.  It doesn't fully invalidate it's usefulness, but simply makes the observation that those published rules weren't intended to be used in the manner some people are trying to use them, and that they could use some revision to better serve their own purpose.

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2010, 05:03:11 PM »
Hmmm.  Do I really want to add another couple hundred words to this loooooooong discussion.  NO.

There are several perspectives here.  That's ok.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2010, 05:29:50 PM »
I'll interject a little with my thoughts, though I know that's risky...

I consider the NSSA rules to not be guidelines for contruction, but only their guidelines for competition.

Dom chose to highlight part of the rules that I find quite useful in this conversation, but I think he highlighted the wrong part:

IMPORTANT NOTICE
In this, and in all other sections and sub-sections of these Skirmish Rules, the term
“approved” by the N-SSA or its designated representative(s) shall mean that the
item in question has been found to meet the dimension, configuration, mechanical
function, and authenticity criteria of the N-SSA. It does not in any way imply, or
infer, or guarantee the safety or the integrity of any particular item.

Actually this speaks to approved items, nothing more.  

It says, approved items simply meet the dimension, configuration, mechanical function, and authenticity criteria of the N-SSA; and the designation approved  does not in any way imply, or infer, or guarantee the safety or the integrity of any particular item.

Since our cannons aren't inspected they can't be approved.

It doesn't say anything at all about construction standards. It's a standard liability disclaimer and doesn't absolve them of using due care.
 

Quote
Douglas, you make this same point:
Quote
Actually they say "at least one inch". Minumum would be a better word, but "at least" implies it could be less. And again have you considered the working pressures involved?  You say unsafe, but that is vague, unsafe at what pressure?
Just a side note - "at least" implies it could be more, not less. 

A definite ambiguity.  

Quote
My real point - everyone here is talking about pressure, but the NSSA doesn't.Their rules make no claims as to what maximum pressures a cannon meeting their requirements can withstand, or what it's service life should be. 

 If they were consistant in utilizing the 1:1 rule, that still wouldn't give any indication as to when it's necessary to build beyond their minimums, since they make no qualifying statement as to the bore ranges their rules apply to - except that they be chosen in accordance with the original piece.

The argument that is being made is that the NSSA rules are inadequate due to their ambiguity and and a few assumptions they make that are undeclared.  They assume there's a limit to the overall bore of the cannon being shot at their matches, which is why they determined a fixed minimum size liner would suffice.  I don't think it's suitable for all bore sizes, though it may be suitable in the situation it is recommended for.  People choosing to build large bore cannon should definitely consider this to be a poorly written aspect of their rules, and adjust their design according to it's requirements. 

I guess I have to concede another ambiguity because N-SSA and AAA do address pressure indirectly with their maximum load charts  N-SSA carries it even further by posting maximum loads for bore and projectile weight. This is much like the loading manuals for small arms cartridges. Except N-SSA doesn't state the load charts are developed based on pressures.

Quote
Citing their rules as a guideline for design of a barrel (though I've done it in the past myself) gives them more credibility than they profess to posess - they themselves claim they aren't guaranteeing safety, but as we recommend them to new builders, we claim they are ideal guidelines for a safe cannon.  As I said, they are a good starting point, but they just don't give sufficient qualifiers for the requirements they set forth.  I think the principles they use to establish their rules are sound, but overall, after examining them more in depth over the last couple of weeks, I agree that they shouldn't be used as a guideline for manufacture unless further conditions are placed on them, such as bore range, specified materials, etc.

Again in the disclaimer they are saying the N-SSA approved doesn't guarantee safety.  They are not saying using the construction criteria isn't safe.  They can't publish an unsafe criteria, that would violate the due care principle of civil liability.

I totally agree that the  N-SSA construction rules could be better written, but I don't see anything unsafe about them.  Combine them with the Rules from  AAA and the load criteria from both organizations and you should be able to build and shoot Muzzle loading artillery with reasonable confidence of safety.


Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2010, 06:17:18 PM »
Quote
Actually this speaks to approved items, nothing more. 

It says, approved items simply meet the dimension, configuration, mechanical function, and authenticity criteria of the N-SSA; and the designation approved  does not in any way imply, or infer, or guarantee the safety or the integrity of any particular item.

Since our cannons aren't inspected they can't be approved.

It doesn't say anything at all about construction standards. It's a standard liability disclaimer and doesn't absolve them of using due care.
Exactly my point!  They proceed in the rest of the guidelines to express exactly what the requirements are such that a barrel can be "approved."  That means they freely admit that following their rules to the letter doesn't necessarily result in a safe gun.  I have no issue with a disclaimer, and in fact fully support it.  No one can guarantee a barrel is safe for all purposes, because when you make something foolproof, inevitably you'll find a better fool, and having a disclaimer serves to give notice that there are risks associated even with firing what normally would be considered a "safe" gun.  The guns we use for sport and pleasure are weapons, and can maim or kill should we ever lose sight of that.  Even so, they provide rules for the barrel as well as for loading, and still admit that their own methods may not be safe.

I wasn't meaning to say that their rules are unsafe, but that they are potentially unsafe for certain purposes beyond their intended use, due to their own assumptions and vague wording.  The main reason their rules could be unsafe is because of the ambiguity in them.  Since they don't clearly establish the limitations of their rules, and since some of their rules are unclear, they leave too much to the interpretation of the reader, who potentially being inexperienced in cannon, materials, or engineering, may think their minimum requirements apply to all conditions, potentially resulting in an unsafe build.  It is not so much what they say that's potentially unsafe, but what they left out.

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2010, 12:13:42 AM »
 I'd like to continue but I'll have to let this one go due to time constraints.

 DD, at this point maybe you and I should agree to disagree. I believe we've both made our points and appear to be at an impasse.

 I've made some less than cordial remarks toward you here. I try to "play the ball, not the man" but my emotions got the best of me. That was wrong, and I apologize.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline dominick

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
    • Black Powder Cannons & Mortars
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2010, 02:43:39 AM »
Without a disclaimer, I doubt if any insurance company would cover their events.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2010, 11:08:58 AM »
Very true. 

In fact, I don't think there's anything wrong with continuing to reference their rules if we include a disclaimer, letting anyone interested in looking at them know that they are rules designed for approval of guns at shooting matches, but there are some aspects of the rules which may need further consideration if they are to be used for guidelines to design of a gun.

I think that's where I'll leave my stance.

Offline VA Rifleman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2010, 02:40:12 PM »

A six pounder M1841 is 3.67" bore (3 x 3.67 = 11") but the tube over the chamber is only 9.8" diameter (wall to chamber ratio of .84),

For me, the above tidbit was very informative.  I know now why Cannon Mikes 1144 replica 1841 barrels don't meet the 1 caliber rule. He built to scale. Been trying to get one with a reduced bore or different taper over the chamber area. 

Excellent points by all. A good exchange of ideas and thought.
Ammunition is like firewood. The more you have, the warmer you feel.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2010, 02:53:01 PM »

A six pounder M1841 is 3.67" bore (3 x 3.67 = 11") but the tube over the chamber is only 9.8" diameter (wall to chamber ratio of .84),

For me, the above tidbit was very informative.  I know now why Cannon Mikes 1144 replica 1841 barrels don't meet the 1 caliber rule. He built to scale. Been trying to get one with a reduced bore or different taper over the chamber area. 

Excellent points by all. A good exchange of ideas and thought.

Actually in a howitzer you measure diameter of the powder chamber not the bore.  The powder chamber should be no more than 3.267 in. in this gun.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2010, 03:43:04 PM »
The six pounder is a gun; the mountain howitzer is even thinner proportionately, .44 wall to bore ratio.

One thing we should also consider is that the military guns of Civil War era were loaded with pre-made cartridges with pre-measured powder charges so the press of the time didn't cause the artillerymen to overcharge their pieces. 
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2010, 06:52:45 PM »
The six pounder is a gun; the mountain howitzer is even thinner proportionately, .44 wall to bore ratio.

One thing we should also consider is that the military guns of Civil War era were loaded with pre-made cartridges with pre-measured powder charges so the press of the time didn't cause the artillerymen to overcharge their pieces. 

Yeah gun, not howitzer...need a hearing aid...

Offline PaulB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2010, 10:49:12 PM »

A six pounder M1841 is 3.67" bore (3 x 3.67 = 11") but the tube over the chamber is only 9.8" diameter (wall to chamber ratio of .84),

For me, the above tidbit was very informative.  I know now why Cannon Mikes 1144 replica 1841 barrels don't meet the 1 caliber rule. He built to scale. Been trying to get one with a reduced bore or different taper over the chamber area. 

Excellent points by all. A good exchange of ideas and thought.

Hern also has a 1/2 scale 6 pdr with a 1.75 bore that has the same issue.  I bought one but ended up swapping it for a 1/2 scale Napoleon with a 1.75 bore. It probably would have been fine but I have more confidence in the Napoleon

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Re: So i'm hooked!!!
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2010, 10:20:07 AM »
...
Your point that something better is needed is inarguable.

And yet it seems to be OUR nature to add one more *&^*! comment that doesn't really add much (from the perspective of the greater scheme of life).   :D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)