60 grain V-Max won't stablize in my 1 in 14" twist barrel. Need help.

[DalesCarpentry]

A member here named Loyd Small was nice enough to send me 21 60 grain V-Max bullets to see if they would stablize in my Remington 700 SPS Varmint 22-250 with a 1 in 14" twist barrel. Well to say they were grouping poorly would be an understatement. The groups were like 6" to 8" at 100 yards no kidding. The thing is none of them keyholed they just grouped very poorly. I loaded 3 of each working up to the max load using IMR 4064. Would trying a different powder help? I say this because none of them keyholed that means they were stablizing but were just not accurate. Can you tell me anythig I can do to get them to group? Thanks and take care Dale
PS thank you very much Loyd Small

[torpedoman]

You can play with different powders and charges but it will take a lot more than 20 bullets no keyholing means they are stabilized  but with groups that big i think i would consider a bullet weight change.

[DalesCarpentry]

You can play with different powders and charges but it will take a lot more than 20 bullets no keyholing means they are stabilized  but with groups that big i think i would consider a bullet weight change.

I may end up having to use this rifle for White Tail Deer this year and I am trying to get a 60 grain bullet to stablize. I won't be using the V-Max for deer so don't worry about that. What bullet would you guys use if you had to hunt deer with a 22-250. Thanks Dale

[torpedoman]

can't use 22 cal centerfire here but i can use my 25 auto pistol (politicians should not be allowed to regulate anything they do not understand)
pick the bullet you intend to use than start at the mid range of the listed loads go up and down in 1/2 gr steps or even 1 gr steps til you find a sweet spot then work around it in 1/4 gr steps. If you get real nuts go to tenth gr for as close to perfect as you can get. No two barrels are the same so anyones great load should be viewed as a starting point.

[DalesCarpentry]

Yes I do understand that you can have 2 of the same rifles in the same caliber and one will like one thing and the other will like something different. Almost like finger prints no 2 a alike. Thanks Dale

[drdougrx]

Hey Dale,

I have a rem Lite Varminter with a 1 in 12 twist and a 60gr bullet will NOT stabilize in this either.  It will shoot 55gr OK though and 40gr BTs are all inside a dime at 100.  I don't think a change in powder or primer will do any good.

GL!

Doug

[DalesCarpentry]

Hey Dale,

I have a rem Lite Varminter with a 1 in 12 twist and a 60gr bullet will NOT stabilize in this either.  It will shoot 55gr OK though and 40gr BTs are all inside a dime at 100.  I don't think a change in powder or primer will do any good.

GL!

Doug

I have been doing some load testing with the 40 grain V-Max this week and have found a very accurate load for it. It shoots these little pills well under a half inch at 100 yards. My load is 35.7 grains of IMR 4064 with CCI 200 primers and Winchester brass. This load produces a Muzzle volicity of 3,900 FPS. This is going to be my go to load for Groundhogs. I am currently shooting 50 grain V-Max BT'S Molly coated with 40.5 grains of H-380. It also is an accurate load but I think the 40 grain V-max produces just a hair more accuracy and shoots a little flatter. I have not taken a Groundhog with this bullet yet but will soon as I am loading them as I am typing this. The 50 grain V-Max has work great also on hogs. If I hit it they don't get back up. That little V-Max bullet does a lot of damage. I am also working up a load for the Hornady 53 grain hollow point. It also shows real promise. Take care Dale

[KansasPaul]

Hi Dale,

I'm no expert on 22/250 caliber rifles but in a .223 you need about 1/9 twist to stabilize a 60 grain bullet.  The rule of thumb for .223 is 1/12 or 1/14 twist for 45 to 55 grain bullets, 1/9 to handle 55 to 65 grain and 1/7 for anything heavier.  Not sure how this translates to 22/250.....

The other thing that struck me is that you have been shooting moly coated bullets - my understanding from reading some forums on moly bullets is that once you start shooting them you need to stick with them.  The other option is to completely scrub the barrel before going back to a jacketed bullet.  This may be the reason for the spread groups.

Paul

[DalesCarpentry]

Hi Dale,

I'm no expert on 22/250 caliber rifles but in a .223 you need about 1/9 twist to stabilize a 60 grain bullet.  The rule of thumb for .223 is 1/12 or 1/14 twist for 45 to 55 grain bullets, 1/9 to handle 55 to 65 grain and 1/7 for anything heavier.  Not sure how this translates to 22/250.....

The other thing that struck me is that you have been shooting moly coated bullets - my understanding from reading some forums on moly bullets is that once you start shooting them you need to stick with them.  The other option is to completely scrub the barrel before going back to a jacketed bullet.  This may be the reason for the spread groups.

Paul

Yes I make sure the barrel is spick and span (very very clean) before switching between Molly coated and regular bullets. I read in many cases a 1 in 14" barrel will stablize a 60 grain bullet but it is kind of like what your barrel like someone elses will not. For the most part a 1 in 14" barrel will not stablize a 60 grain bullet but some people get lucky with their barrel. I am hearing that the 60gr Nosler and the 55 and 63 gr Sierra GameKings stablize just fine in a 1 in 14" barrel. I don't know I guess I will have to try them to see. Take care Dale

[billy_56081]

THe 60 grain vMax is longer  than the 60 grain partition, you might want to try that. It is not the weight that causes them to be unstable it is the length. Also the faster you push a bullet the faster it spins, meaning the faster you push a bullet the longer bullet you can stabilize in said twist.

[MZ5]

I have some Sierra 63 grain semi-points here which are only just barely longer than my 50-grain Speer TNTs.  Those would stabilize with no trouble.  Speer makes (made?) a 55-gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw that should stabilize without trouble, and they have a 70-gr. grain semi-spitzer which they claim (in their manual) the 22-250 is powerful enough to stabilize.  They don't list a twist rate for their test barrel, though.  Speer says they don't consider that 70-grainer to be a wise choice for deer, but they do say that lots of people have told them it works well on deer.

Anyway, that Sierra or Speer TBBC should easily stabilize for you, and also be very good-for-class deer bullets.  Good luck!

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Dale I was just looking in my Hornady 6th Edition and I noticed a little note under the load data for their 60 gr. bullets. Maybe your 7th Edition has it as well.

NOTE: The 60 grain V-Max bullet will not stabilize in a 1-14" twist and slower twist Bbl's.


I think I'd give the Hornady 60 grain SP #2270 a try, if 60 gr. is what you intend to use (for varmints).

Bill

[DalesCarpentry]

You see that is just it. My 7th edition also says that but I have heard many people gettimg them to stablize in a 1 in 14". I have proved that they stablize but are by far not accurate. I want to know if there is anything I can do to make them accurate. Like change powders and such. I am about to forget the whole 60 grain thing and just find some 55 grain pills that shoot great. Thanks Dale

[ironglow]

Dale;
  I have been surfing for hours at times for an answer to this question, since I plan on using a .223 Rem this fall. medium game bullets are hard to find in .224 and stabalizing larger ones in the wrong twist rate can be a problem.
  Perhaps you could go down just 5 grains and get much better results. This bullet has good reviews on medium, soft skinned game;

   http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=683244

[bcp]

I've read some reports that the Winchester 64 grain Powerpoint will work in a 1-14 twist.   It is a blunter lead point big game bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390573203

Here is one thread on it:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=729215

Bruce

[Dand]

A .22 hollow point on deer??  It would take a lot to convince me. Like others have suggested, try the Sierra 63 or shorter blunter 60's. I get good accuracy from them in my 1:10 223. But maybe 4 inches less twist makes more difference than the velocity difference between the 223 and 22-250??

I'd look at sturdy 55 gr bullets if none of the 60's work.

[skarke]

IMHO, you won't get a 1 14 twist to stabilize that heavy of a bullet.  It just isn't capable of impartig the right spin.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Dale, the 60 grain Vmax, is pretty long...as others have said, the bullets with plastic tips run longer for wt. than the same wt. bullet with a lead tip...so it is quite possible the vmax in 60 won't group well...in a 1-14...but the 64 grain WW has shot well out of all my .22-250's, Swift, .22-250 improved, and my little 223. but if you look at it, it is a shorter bullet, the length as someone said determines or at least helps determine if the bullet will stablize or not...years ago before all the quick twist rifles came on the market in .22 cal. the 63 grain Serria was as long as we could get, then the 70 grain Speer came along..it is designed to shoot in these rifles...but I did shoot p. dogs with it and it shot fine, but really blew the little devils up...as FN said in another post...shoot for the lungs...a head shot on big game is silly, and the chance of breaking a jaw is good, I have seen this in Wy. where someone tries to hit an antelope in the head, and breaks the jaw, also in Pa. after they opened doe season in the general buck season..a sicking sight at best...

[Lloyd Smale]

dale in my experience if a load shoots that pourly theres about nothing your going to do to make it exceptional. the problem you have is in 60 grain theres some decent whitetail bullets but in 55 there rare. My buddy did a bunch of penetration testing on a pile of 22 cal bullet last year. I just got off the phone to him and he said in a 55 he would try a nosler ballistic tip or the hornady vmax 55. Both of those should stabilize  in your 1 14

[Lloyd Smale]

dale in my experience if a load shoots that pourly theres about nothing your going to do to make it exceptional. the problem you have is in 60 grain theres some decent whitetail bullets but in 55 there rare. My buddy did a bunch of penetration testing on a pile of 22 cal bullet last year. I just got off the phone to him and he said in a 55 he would try a nosler ballistic tip or the hornady vmax 55. Both of those should stabilize  in your 1 14. He said another bullet he would try is the 50 grain barns. He said it penetrated better then any other bullet he tested but he was using a 223 to test that one and he said expansion wasnt the best. Problem for me is when i tested them they didnt shoot exceptional in even my 1 7 or 1 9 twist ars. But that doesnt mean the wont for you. One thing ill throw at you is that if deer hunting is your object i wouldnt even fool with bullets under 55 grain and stay away for the bullets in the 55 grain range that are designed for varmits in the 223 like the sierra blitz ect.

[Lloyd Smale]

dale a bullet can be unstable and not keyhole. Ive even seen bullets that would shoot decent at a 100 yards and be all over the target at 200 because velocity dropped off enough for them to start to become unstable. Ive also seen it where a bullet shoots better at 200 then it did at a 100. that ones harder to explain.

You see that is just it. My 7th edition also says that but I have heard many people gettimg them to stablize in a 1 in 14". I have proved that they stablize but are by far not accurate. I want to know if there is anything I can do to make them accurate. Like change powders and such. I am about to forget the whole 60 grain thing and just find some 55 grain pills that shoot great. Thanks Dale

[Graybeard]

Try the Barnes 53 grain TSX Flat base bullet. It's not that long so should stabilize fine. I've got them shooting pretty good from my Remington Model Seven Predator but they shoot better from my M700 SPS Varmint .22-250 like yours.

[LHitchcox]

And the TSX is designed as a deer bullet. They are pricey though. I will probably use 62 grain TSX bullets in a .223 as a youth deer load this fall.

[Lloyd Smale]

you guys that can use the nos partition will find it a better performer then the barnes. Expansion is iffy with the 22 cal barnes bulelts we tested in 223s. they may work better in a 22250 though.  Nosler partitions made pretty little mushrooms every time.

[DalesCarpentry]

I think I wilnot even try any further measures to try and get a heavy bullet to stablize. I will buy a box of the Barnes TSX 53 grain flatbased bullets and a box of the 55 grain Nosler partitions and see witch one shoots best.

[necchi]

When trying those Barnes tsx, you'll need to clean the bore often. I have them shooting well from my 223 but 15 rounds and the bore is copper fouled, they start spraying all over, clean it and I have groups again. In my guns,,the TSX likes ALOT of leap, The advise I got local was seat to the center of the forward ring,,it worked.

Wise choice giving up on a long projectile in a slow twist, it's kinda why they make different barrels. The physics behind it is nothing new.