Author Topic: .308 win (Read 3516 times)

Deadeye · « **on:** November 26, 2003, 11:46:28 AM »

i was in a local pawn shop today and saw a savage model 10 in .308 win with scope for $300, can get it bought for $255 plus tax. same gun wal mart has for $370. it looks new to me, but is used. seems like a good price? how does a .308 perform, what caliber is it close to? just need some opinions, thanks

savageT · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2003, 12:14:16 PM »

Deadeye,
I don't know what calibers you've been using in the past, but I certainly believe that a .308 will do anything you ask of it up to and including deer, elk, and black bear. As long as you pay attention to the weight and style bullet you use, you can purchase commercial ammo just about anywhere. Next to the 30-30 and 30-06, it's the most available today.

If you are satisfied with the condition and trust the shop owner, I would say the model 10 Savage is an excellent choice. If you are not certain, ask if you may get a one or two day inspection (without firing it!) and let a qualified gunsmith check it out first.

Jim

savageT · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2003, 12:40:03 PM »

deadeye,
Sorry, you asked what the .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) is close to ballistically?.....That would be the 30-06, 7mm-08 (7mm in a .308 case). It's called a short action as compared to the 30-06. The .308 is considered to be the most accurate of the 30 caliber cartridges, works well with a wide variety of propellants and bullet weights. (110, 125, 130 gr. varment weights, heavier bullets 130, 150, 165-168gr. for deer, etc.

Jim

Zachary · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2003, 04:27:25 AM »

You will find little difference between the 7mm-08 and .308 both in terms of recoil and performance when shooting similarly weighted bullets. If shooting black bear, although the 7mm-08 works just fine, the 308 works a bit better, partly because it can be loaded with heavier bullets, and also because the .308 is a larger diameter bullet. On a downside, the 308 is not as flat as the 7-08 (when comparing identical bullet weights and styles), but it's not much different.

I currently own two 7mm-08s and two .308s. For whatever reason, I like the 7-08 better. :wink:

As for the gun, I'm not a big Savage fan. They are accurate as heck, but I just don't like the way the bolt works - it's just not smooth and tight, but rather sloppy and not held to tighter tolerances - kinda like closing the door on a 1978 Ford Pick-up. :grin:

Zachary

jim21 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 21, 2006, 07:33:49 AM »

Myself I think thats a pretty good deal.A .308 is one popular caliber,it dont kick as much as a 30-06.I like it next to my 7-08.

Slamfire · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2006, 08:32:37 AM »

I don't think it's much of a cartridge for hunters. It is a fine cartridge for target shooters, but there is too much of a tradeoff between sectional density, (the length of a bullet/related to its diameter) and velocity. You can shoot bullets with good sectional density with it, or you can shoot bullets with good velocity with it, but you can't do both at the same time.
Even the military has pretty much given up on it. :roll:

Cappy · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2006, 01:46:17 PM »

Loaded with 165gr premium bullets you can have at'er. I used a .308 for years and a number of deer, elk and moose fell to it. Great cartridge low recoil and gets the job done.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2006, 10:56:13 AM »

Quote from: Slamfire

I don't think it's much of a cartridge for hunters. It is a fine cartridge for target shooters, but there is too much of a tradeoff between sectional density, (the length of a bullet/related to its diameter) and velocity. You can shoot bullets with good sectional density with it, or you can shoot bullets with good velocity with it, but you can't do both at the same time.
Even the military has pretty much given up on it. :roll:

Not much of a cartridge for hunters?

I have yet to see a deer or elk shot with a .308 and walk away. Was at the range today with my .30-30 and .308. The .308 has it all over the .30-30, yet elk fall quite reliably to the .30-30, too.

Get a well-built 165-180g bullet, load it up in the .308 and you’re good for most North American game at ranges well past those at which most game is taken. In 20+ years of elk, deer and antelope hunting, I have never taken an animal I couldn’t have taken just as easily with a .308.

roper · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2006, 04:54:13 PM »

I used a 308 for HBR matches and as a varmit rifle. The 243,7-08 and 260 all are on the same case. As a hunting rifle it's best as a short range elk rifle IMHO just lacks the velocity for the long range when comparing to 300mag or 300wby velocity using 180gr plus bullets. There isn't much between the 300 Savage and 308. I've got a 1/15 twist 30 cal barrel I'm going to have chamber in 308 for the 125/135gr bullets and I shoot a wildcat off the 308 case. Well good luck

nasem · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2006, 05:31:17 PM »

coyote hunter-

whats wrong with you man, dude a 308 or a 30-06 couldn't kill a fly EVEN AT POINT BLANK range........yet along you think it can kill a deer ?

308, 30-06, 7mm mag, 300 win man, ALL those rounds are poinltess, they couldn't kill an ant thats 2mm long.

Seriously, for deer hunting and up, you need minimum 50 bmg (and thats minimum).... a mortar round is better, or even a us-military tank, that one is perfect for elk and even big bears.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2006, 07:35:24 PM »

Quote from: nasem

coyote hunter-

whats wrong with you man, dude a 308 or a 30-06 couldn't kill a fly EVEN AT POINT BLANK range........yet along you think it can kill a deer ?

I don't know what I was thinking!

Just ran the numbers for two of my loads, both using a 168g TSX - one for the .308 and one for the .300 Win Mag.

For the calculations I assumed each was zeroed for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) using a 6" diameter target, meaning the bullet is never more than 3" above or below line of sight out to MPBR.

.308 Win
168g TSX @ 2653fps
226 yards = Zero
266 yards = MPBR, -3.0",1800fpe
300 yards = -6.6", 1708fpe
400 yards = -22.2", 1466fpe

.300 Win Mag
168g TSX @ 3246fps
273 yards = Zero
321 yards = MPBR, -3.0", 2573fpe
400 yards = -10.6", 2302fpe
500 yards = -25.2", 1996fpe
700 yards = -75.3Â”, 1478fpe

Then for comparison Â–
.30-30
170g Speer FN @ 2200fps
100 yards = +3.0Â”, 1438fpe
182 yards = Zero, 1179fpe
213 yards = MPBR, -3.0Â”, 1079fpe

If one accepts the .30-30 as an acceptable 100-yard elk rifle (and in my experience it is), one cannot dismiss the .308 as a 400-yard elk rifle.

nasem · « **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2006, 03:01:52 AM »

Let me tell you the advantages of the 308:
1) it WILL take down anything in north america (except probebly 800+ lbs bears)
2) it is one of the most accurate rounds in the world today (us military snipers use this round)
3) you can find all different bullet weights, anywhere from 150-180 grains (ok maybe the 180 grains are a little too heavy for this round, but anything under is just perfect)
4) you can find 308 ammo ANYWHERE, they are just as popular as 30-06 (if not more popular)
5) cheap bulk ammo is medicin for good long range practice.... and 308 is known for having bulk ammo ALWAYS on good deals. Gander mountain sells a tin of 400 grouns for like $65
6) it recoils less than a 30-06 (not sure if you shot a 30-06, but '06 doesn't recoil a whole lot anyways, hold the gun tight on your shoulder and you should shoot 40 rounds of 180 grainers with no problems)

disadvantages of the 308:
I can't really think of any.....

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2006, 05:10:56 AM »

Quote from: nasem

...

disadvantages of the 308:
I can't really think of any.....

I can.

1. It’s over 50 years old, not young and sexy. .308 Win? Yawn.
2. Its useful range is limited to only 350-400 yards.
3. The case isn’t fat enough or long enough and it doesn’t hold enough powder. Real men won’t be caught dead with such a round.
4. It doesn’t have the word “Magnum” anywhere in its name.
5. Unlike a really useful .30, it doesn’t do well with bullets over 180g.
6. A well placed 165-168g bullet will do its job with ruthless efficiency and will often exit. But it won’t kill things REALLY DEAD like a 180g bullet from a Magum.

Slamfire · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:03:56 AM »

Quote from: Coyote Hunter

Quote from: Slamfire

Not much of a cartridge for hunters?

That's my opinion.

Quote

I have yet to see a deer or elk shot with a .308 and walk away. Was at the range today with my .30-30 and .308. The .308 has it all over the .30-30, yet elk fall quite reliably to the .30-30, too.

Duh!

Quote

Get a well-built 165-180g bullet, load it up in the .308 and youÂ’re good for most North American game at ranges well past those at which most game is taken. In 20+ years of elk, deer and antelope hunting, I have never taken an animal I couldnÂ’t have taken just as easily with a .308.

I'm happy for you. I killed most of mine with a 6.5 of some description. The better ones outperform the .308.

.308 Win. · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2006, 08:18:14 PM »

This "real man" has been shooting a .308 for a long many years now and has taken many deer and similar sized game with this great round. In today's world, a good Nosler Partition, TBBC, X or any of the other premium bullets can be used to take down all but the big bears with aplomb. Most importantly in any given caliber is bullet construction and let's not forget that the person squeezing the trigger has to possess the skill to put the bullet in the right place in the first place. In addition, it takes a skilled woodsman to get close enough. Anyone can take a poke at an animal from a "magnum" distance but that's not hunting and it isn't ethical anyway without specialized equipment. If you want a magnum, then get a magnum but it simply isn't necessary for the majority of North American game if you become proficient with the .308. The .308 has been around a long time and there are many solid reasons for that. It just plain works.

257 roberts · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2006, 01:46:30 PM »

A 308 Win. will do all that needs doing!!!

myarmor · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2006, 07:16:04 PM »

From target to hunting, I agree.
It's sad many under rate it.
-Aaron

safetysheriff · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2006, 01:28:52 PM »

if you look at the CUP ratings, the .308 commercial (not the military 7.62mm) is allowed to go to a MAX of 55,200 CUP, per the NRA "HANDLOADING" book, 1986 edition. that's a pretty high pressure, i'm thinking that's how Hornady put together their .308 Win' Light Magnum load of a 165 gr' bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2880 fps and a muzzle energy of 3038 ft/lbs. they load a 'BTSP' in that cartridge that i'd expect to take an elk at 300+ yds.......because of its remaining vel/energy at 300 yds being 2272fps/1890ft/lbs.

Handloader magazine of Febr'/March, 2005 had a good article about the .300 Savage and .308 Win' that some of you may have/remember. his velocity for the Federal 180 gr' bullet at 2740 is probably right, his use of a "180 grain" bullet in his Hornady Light Magnum example should actually be their 165 gr' bullet. the fact, to me however, is that the .308 can reach out and take large critters with today's bullets (of proper construction) at longer distances than many expect.

my sincere opinion,

ss'

BUSTER51 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 21, 2006, 01:56:54 PM »

Quote from: Slamfire on April 21, 2006, 08:32:37 AM

I don't think it's much of a cartridge for hunters. It is a fine cartridge for target shooters, but there is too much of a tradeoff between sectional density, (the length of a bullet/related to its diameter) and velocity. You can shoot bullets with good sectional density with it, or you can shoot bullets with good velocity with it, but you can't do both at the same time.
Even the military has pretty much given up on it. :roll:

what in the world a .308 will be hard to beat for hunting in north america .

powerguy · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2006, 01:13:25 AM »

Quote from: Coyote Hunter on April 22, 2006, 07:35:24 PM

Quote from: nasem
coyote hunter-

whats wrong with you man, dude a 308 or a 30-06 couldn't kill a fly EVEN AT POINT BLANK range........yet along you think it can kill a deer ?
quote]

I don't know what I was thinking!

Just ran the numbers for two of my loads, both using a 168g TSX - one for the .308 and one for the .300 Win Mag.

For the calculations I assumed each was zeroed for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) using a 6" diameter target, meaning the bullet is never more than 3" above or below line of sight out to MPBR.

.308 Win
168g TSX @ 2653fps
226 yards = Zero
266 yards = MPBR, -3.0",1800fpe
300 yards = -6.6", 1708fpe
400 yards = -22.2", 1466fpe

.300 Win Mag
168g TSX @ 3246fps
273 yards = Zero
321 yards = MPBR, -3.0", 2573fpe
400 yards = -10.6", 2302fpe
500 yards = -25.2", 1996fpe
700 yards = -75.3Â”, 1478fpe

Then for comparison Â–
.30-30
170g Speer FN @ 2200fps
100 yards = +3.0Â”, 1438fpe
182 yards = Zero, 1179fpe
213 yards = MPBR, -3.0Â”, 1079fpe

If one accepts the .30-30 as an acceptable 100-yard elk rifle (and in my experience it is), one cannot dismiss the .308 as a 400-yard elk rifle.

The 150 tsx would give better ballistics (trajectory) than the 165 and still have good performance on elk

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2006, 03:53:18 AM »

Quote from: powerguy on August 22, 2006, 01:13:25 AM

Quote from: Coyote Hunter on April 22, 2006, 07:35:24 PM

Just ran the numbers for two of my loads, both using a 168g TSX - one for the .308 and one for the .300 Win Mag.

For the calculations I assumed each was zeroed for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) using a 6" diameter target, meaning the bullet is never more than 3" above or below line of sight out to MPBR.

[Ballistic data omitted as it is included in my comments below]

If one accepts the .30-30 as an acceptable 100-yard elk rifle (and in my experience it is), one cannot dismiss the .308 as a 400-yard elk rifle.

The 150 tsx would give better ballistics (trajectory) than the 165 and still have good performance on elk

Quote

Powerguy –

While you are correct, the 165/168g bullets will carry more energy further down the road. They should also penetrate somewhat better due to their higher sectional density. Either one will do at 400 yards. My elk load is 165g North Forks with the 168g TSX’s as a backup.

.308 Win
150g TSX @ 2937fps (Hodgdon web site, fastest load)
244 yards = Zero
286 yards = MPBR, -3.0",1727fpe
300 yards = -4.4", 1727fpe
400 yards = -17.7", 1383fpe

.308 Win
168g TSX @ 2653fps (My load)
226 yards = Zero
266 yards = MPBR, -3.0",1800fpe
300 yards = -6.6", 1708fpe
400 yards = -22.2", 1466fpe

.300 Win Mag
168g TSX @ 3246fps (My load)
273 yards = Zero
321 yards = MPBR, -3.0", 2573fpe
400 yards = -10.6", 2302fpe
500 yards = -25.2", 1996fpe
700 yards = -75.3”, 1478fpe

Then for comparison –
.30-30
170g Speer FN @ 2200fps (My load)
100 yards = +3.0”, 1438fpe
182 yards = Zero, 1179fpe
213 yards = MPBR, -3.0”, 1079fpe

dw06 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2006, 09:33:45 AM »

Quote from: 257 roberts on August 20, 2006, 01:46:30 PM

A 308 Win. will do all that needs doing!!!

Can't say it any better

Syncerus · « **Reply #22 on:** August 22, 2006, 09:42:14 AM »

Barnes X bullets historically have had problems opening up at under 2000-2100 fps in most calibers. In the .308 it can be a real issue with heavier bullets. Watch that 300 yard bullet speed carefully when you are using X bullets in a .308 (and other small-capacity cases).

That out of the way, I have been totally satisfied with my current.308. It's my second, and I wouldn't be without one.

Syncerus

jvs · « **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2006, 10:13:05 AM »

The .308 is the Plain Vanilla of the Gun World.

It is Accurate, Reliable, Affordable and Consistant, with nothing to b*tch about.

So much so that since people can't mess with it much to improve it, they can't be bothered with it. It is a truely boring caliber. The .308 has proved itself in War, Law Enforcement, Competition Shooting and Hunting. Unfortunately for some, the .308 just isn't good enough. But I can say this...
they don't know what they are missing.

Anyone who has and knows the .308 - knows what good they are.

Terrill · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2006, 02:46:49 AM »

Oh Lord! I just bought my 5th .308. After reading a few of these post, maybe I should try and trade it off.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #25 on:** August 24, 2006, 04:28:23 AM »

Quote from: Slamfire on April 21, 2006, 08:32:37 AM

I don't think it's much of a cartridge for hunters. It is a fine cartridge for target shooters, but there is too much of a tradeoff between sectional density, (the length of a bullet/related to its diameter) and velocity. You can shoot bullets with good sectional density with it, or you can shoot bullets with good velocity with it, but you can't do both at the same time.
Even the military has pretty much given up on it. :roll:

Every time I see the above I just have to laugh – there is SO much wrong with it.

First, regarding the military. The military went with the .223 largely because of weight – for a given weight a soldier can carry much more .223 ammo than .308. Notice that the .308 is still the standard NATO round. Also note that the military is looking at replacements for the .223 due to problems with terminal effectiveness or lack thereof. I don’t think I ever heard such complaints about the .308, and it certainly was not a reason for the switch to the .223.

But that’s a secondary issue for most people as most people at this forum will use it for hunting. Which brings us to the arguments about velocity and bullet weight/sectional density. Sectional density is simply a measurement that can be used to compare various bullets – it is less useful as a predictor of terminal effectivity, including penetration, than are bullet construction and velocity. If a bullet can get to the vitals and destroy them, additional sectional density is of little value as I’m sure millions of dead elk, deer, antelope and other game animals can attest.

Just how much velocity is needed can be determined by looking at the ranges a which most game is taken and how much energy is needed to put that game down reliably. Often quoted retained energy numbers are 1,000fpe for deer and 1,500fpe for elk. Much game, if not most, is taken at 100 yards or less and the largest percentage by far is taken at ranges under 200 yards.

Zeroed for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) for a 6” target, meaning the bullet is never more than 3” above or below line of sight, here are some calculations for a .308 pushing 150g and 165g AccuBonds:

150g AccuBond @ 2900fs (Hodgdon lists 2937fps), .226 S.D., .335 B.C.
245 yds = zero
288 yds = -3”
300yds = -4.2”, 1778fpe
350yds = -9.7”, 1641fpe
400yds = -17”, 1513fpe

165g AccuBond @ 2704fps (Hodgdon lists 2754fps), .248 S.D., .342 B.C.
235yds = zero
276yds = -3”
300yds = -5.4”, 1813fpe
350yds = -11.6”, 1683fpe
400yds = -19.6”, 1560fpe

From these numbers it’s pretty clear the .308 Win makes a decent 350-yard rifle for most game. A flatter-shooting magnum will offer more reach where it is needed, but such occasions are relatively few. In fact, in my 25 years of elk, deer and antelope hunting I have never taken a shot that I could not have taken just as easily with a .308 Win.

The .308 Win would not be my first choice for hunting big bears or moose, but even they will fall easily to a well placed shot from a .308 Win. My guess is a .308 Win will easily do over 90% of what needs doing, and probably over 95%. And the .308 Win does it without beating up the shooter.

Not much of a cartridge for hunters??? Is someone smoking the wacky weed?

sniperVLS · « **Reply #26 on:** August 25, 2006, 06:41:50 AM »

I can't believe people doubt a caliber such as the .308

Dead is dead, and like many others b4 me have said, if you do your job by putting a well constructed bullet where it needs to go, it's more than sufficient.

Whats next? The .270 and .30-06 arent worthy of being in the woods?

TEXAIR · « **Reply #27 on:** November 11, 2009, 03:46:51 PM »

I inherited my Grandfathers 1967 model 99e in .308 about ten years ago and since then i have used this gun to take many many deer at various ranges up to 385 yards and just like those before me have said you have to possess the skill to be able to put the bullet out of any rifle any caliber into the right spot and if you have that ability you wont have a problem.

Now for the whiners that say that the .308 is not a good rifle or round and that you cant kill anything with this spectacular round (that i have never missed or had any problem with) i suggest you go back to your child hood BB gun and begin to work yourself up to a real round that you can handle!!!

Have a nice day!!!

mannyrock · « **Reply #28 on:** November 12, 2009, 03:28:48 AM »

Slamfire, you say that the .308 isn't much of a cartridge for hunters? How could you possibly write such as silly and incorrect statement? Practically every serious hunter I know owns and uses at least one .308.

The .308 is a shortened version of the .30-06, and has about 94% of the energy of the .30-06, with less recoil and a shorter receiver. It shoots both 150 and 180 grain bullets great, and kills everything from woodchucks through and including Elk and Moose. If for some reason are hunting something big and feel that you really really need the full power of a .30-06, then you just buy a box of the .308 Light Magnum or High Energy rounds, and they duplicate the power of the .30-06.

And, the .308 is routinely listed among the top 6 or 7 hunting cartridges sold in America every year.

Mannyrock

NickSS · « **Reply #29 on:** November 22, 2009, 12:35:03 PM »

I have fired over 70,000 308 rounds target shooting for 20 years and probably another 1000 rounds in hunting rifles mostly shooting at targets but I have also used it to kill deer, antelope, carabu, moose, black bear and sundry varmints. All but one scummed to one shot. I also use the 30-06, 7X57 mauser and 6.5X55 for big game hunting. To date I have never seen any difference in performance between any of them on live animals. The results have always been the same one shot one dead critter. I went through a period of magnum mania and had a bunch of them from 264 mag through 458 win mag. After much shooting and some hunting I sold all of them as being unnecessary powerful for hunting anything in the lower 48. I was burning a lot more powder, destroying a lot more meat in the critter and they were not dieing any faster. In fact I have quite using 30 caliber medium sized cartridges for deer altogether as they are more potent than necessary. My current deer rifle is a 30-30 94 winchester for woods hunting and the 6.5X55 for open country hunting. I just select the right bullet for the anticipated range. To answer your question the 308 is a sweetheart for a rifle for hunting anything in the country except for big bears. It will take them with proper bullet placement but you may not get much time to aim. Personally I use a Marlin 45-70 loaded with a 400 gr bullet at 1800 fps for that chore.