Author Topic: Native American Wisdom  (Read 2019 times)

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Offline Swampman

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Native American Wisdom
« on: June 23, 2010, 11:16:08 AM »
"When it comes time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home." - Chief Aupumut (1725), Mohican.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 11:23:30 AM »
 ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 11:41:17 AM »
That was mistakingly attributed to Aupumut. The full quote is;

Live your life that the fear of death
can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about his religion.
Respect others in their views
and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life,
beautify all things in your life.
Seek to make your life long
and of service to your people.
Prepare a noble death song for the day
when you go over the great divide.
Always give a word or sign of salute when meeting
or passing a friend, or even a stranger, if in a lonely place.
Show respect to all people, but grovel to none.
When you rise in the morning, give thanks for the light,
for your life, for your strength.
Give thanks for your food and for the joy of living.
If you see no reason to give thanks,
the fault lies in yourself.
Touch not the poisonous firewater that makes
wise ones turn to fools and robs their spirit of its vision.
When your time comes to die, be not like those
whose hearts are filled with fear of death,
so that when their time comes they weep and pray
for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way.
Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.

Tecumseh - Shawnee

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 12:24:49 PM »
How do you know?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2010, 01:25:09 PM »
Because I've researched such things for years and Tecumseh's words are well documented. As a Story Teller and First Nation Activist these are things I need to know. It's highly doubtful the quote came from a source he was very unlikely to have known and our Peoples didn't normaly repeat other's words when exspessing themselves. It's an "Indian" thing concerning individuality. However, I'll admit, nothing is impossible...just highly unlikely.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 01:28:14 PM »
It's attributed to Aupumut in numerous places.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2010, 02:39:17 PM »
Swamp, I know several things that are attributed to differant First Nation individuals that are way way off base. The problem is, it wasn't first Nation Peoples writing our history, it was Europeans. They tended to write things as they saw fit and quite often no where close to the truth. Like I said, it's possible he said it but I just don't see Tecumseh repeating it without at least giving him credit. With me, it's weighing what Europeans wrote versas the knowledge of First Nation customs and etiquitte and my doubt Tecumseh would ever have heard the lines elsewhere and then included them in his speech. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first and not likely the last time. I just have to base my opinion on what I know.

Offline Dee

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 03:03:59 PM »
Swampy there are numerous sites that also attribute it to Tecumseh, along with the ENTIRE statement rather than just the one sentence you put up. There is nothing wrong with being enlightened as to actual origin, and SH ain't tryin to compete with ya. He obviously is right.
I can most likely find several sites confirming the Al Gore invented the Internet, and there are hundreds of sites that say that the Civil War was over slavery, even though it wasn't.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 03:14:28 PM »
Yea he's right because he's "first nation".   ::)


"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Dee

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 03:54:03 PM »
Swampy, if he's not right, and you are. Why are you right? And why get sarcastic, he's not?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 04:02:17 PM »
It's ok Dee.  I think the point of the post is lost.   My ancestors were wiped out by pathogens they had never been exposed to.  They were not the first people here.  I expect they defeated the old ones who built the mounds and so they came to power.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Dee

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 04:28:15 PM »
Well Swampy I am half Cherokee and I too have never heard the term "First Nation", and am not sure whom gets to decide is "First Nation", and whom is not, and why it would matter. I have no idea whom was here first, and have long since given up on "hyphenated Americans". I am an American that happens to be Cherokee, and although I am proud of my Cherokee ancestry, and enjoy reading and learning about it, it is not what runs me.
If one looks back on American Indian culture one quickly learns that the American Indian was an individual from the beginning of his upbringing. If a group wanted to go to battle with another group, and an individual didn't agree, he simply did not go, and was not thought lessor of.
So the lesson here is, you quoted a sentence from an entire thought, from someone other than whom you thought said it, and someone else was more familiar with the actual person that said it, and shared it with all of us. Your point wasn't lost, it was expanded, and rather well with the ENTIRE quote.
My ancestors too were cruelly treated and marched from Georgia, and North and South Carolina, all the way to Oklahoma on the "Trail of Tears". They lost family, and friends, and were not even allowed the time to bury them. Children whom could not keep up were abandoned at gun point and left to wander and die in the woods.
Tecumseh, said it well, and his entire quote added to yours made your point more clearly.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 04:39:04 PM »
It's seems as many as 10-12 people felt my attribution was correct.  I am at least 1/8th Cherokee.  I don't think anyone is much more than perhaps 1/2.  You should apply for a monthly check.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Dee

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2010, 05:14:47 PM »
I don't need a check Swampy, but all my medical is paid for if I want it by the Cherokee Nation. I can trace my lineage all the way back to the Trail of Tears. Your synopsis of no one being much more than half is a bad attitued, uneducated opinion. It's obvious your not gonna be appeased on the issue, so stew in your own juices and I'm outta here.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2010, 05:47:46 PM »
Swampman, you quoted a statement and atributed it to a certain person.  I gave my opinion that the atribution was wrong based on years of research in such things, my knowledge of various First Nation culture and plain common sense which tells me the atribution was not likely correct. I in no way meant that it was your fault, you posted what you were led to believe was right. I even added that though I based my opinion on good solid ground it didn't mean that I was correct myself, just that I had better information to base my opinion on. First Nation is what many "Indian" Nations prefer to be refered too. They were the first Nations to exist here. Simple as that. "Indian" simply is insulting to many. We were not born, nor decended from those born, in India. As for Native American it should be applied to ANYONE born here. These points are important to me because I'm part of a drive, along with John Graywolf, to reconect the differant Nations with their true names, not just the ones given them from others. For instance Cherokee is not the true name. Even Tsalagi ( Those who speak another language ) which is widely accepted by Cherokee is a Muskogee word. Our true names are Ani yunwiya ( The Principle People ) Ani kituhwagi ( The people of Kituhwa ). To a traditionist that is very important to know. I meant no disrespect to you but I have dedicated my life to KNOWING various First Nation cultures and traditions. That includes who said what.  My credentials as a First Nation activist are known. I've written articles for other well known activists such as Moses Brings Plenty, a Lakota activist and actor and a direct decendent of Crazy Horse. Also for John Graywolf who was advisor and actor for the History Channels Wild West Tech and curator of the Chumash Museum in California. My articles have been read on radio stations all over the US. I regularly write articles for the oldest First Nation site on the internet and for Cherokee news papers. I was also invited to Washington DC, by the niece of Floyd Red Crow Westernman, to speak on First Nation cultures and the problems now facing those on and off the reservations as part of The Longest Walk march. I'm often asked to speak in schools, at conventions and at Pow Wows. So hard as it might be to accept, I do know that of which I speak. I'm also the first to admit I am wrong when proven so because the truth is very important to me. As Dee said, I wished only to expand on your post and clear up what I saw as a wide spread misconception. I certainly did not blame you for it. As many, you believed what you read and sadly the truth of our history is only now coming out as our People tell it themselves. As for your statement that there are no full bloods I do take issue with that. I personaly know many full bloods who can trace their lineage without question. I know what I do from years of research and most of that talking to Elders of various Nations. It is not a hobby, it's a way of life. As for the mounds there is good evidence to suggest that the Cherokee are decended from the Mississipian culture at Cahokia. Your statement sounds like the early pilgrims who could not believe "Indians" could build such structures so they must have been built by an earlier race. You asked how I knew so I told you. I've read many of your posts and have respect for you, I only ask that it be returned....SH ^i^

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2010, 04:29:07 AM »
The entire speech is a great speech. Thanks for posting it S.H. . Swampman thanks for starting it . Dee thanks for adding common sense . Like my wife ya'll are all decendent from first nation ( thanks S.H. for you explination of this term as it makes perfect sense ) . Ya'll are lucky as i have no real knowlege of my history as most was destoried when records were burned during the Civil War as far as i can tell. I was born here so now with S.H.'s explination I am a native American , I like that. I guess we forget all people born in South , Centrial and North America are Americans . I also consider myself a citizen of the United States and the State of Va. .
 I wonder how many who live in the USA consider themselves citizens of it ? I guess that speech would fit well with the men who gained freedom for The USA . One has to wonder what and if the First Nations way of life and thinking played a part in how those brave Settlers went aginst the King to set up a place where men could be free to live .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 06:20:18 AM »
The current "Native Americans" (or current name dejour) were not the first nations to live here.  None of us would exist today without Manifest Destiny.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 06:24:49 AM »
Swampman your point ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 09:02:26 AM »
The current "Native Americans" (or current name dejour) were not the first nations to live here.  None of us would exist today without Manifest Destiny.

Okay, as you are an anthropologist, please tell me who was here before First Nation peoples, aka " Native Americans", aka "Indians" ? You were not here first  but are you not decended from those who came before you? I study Anthropology and Archeology, as a modern day traditionalist it's things needed to be learned, and it is a known fact that historic tribes decended from those who first set foot on this continent. And oh yes, " Manifest Destiny " the European's blanket excuse to take by force, exterminating many whole tribes in the process, that which wasn't theirs to take. Manifest Destiny, the right to take what isn't your's simply because you can. Never mind that the Creator made us as we were and thus we had a right to be so. Ever hear the true facts of Thanksgiving?  But they did it in the name of progress, because their way of life was the only one that mattered, and they called it manifest destiny, so that makes it ok right? Please don't preach to me of manifest destiny. It seems rather obvious that that is actually the bee in your bonnet as you keep refering to it. Perhaps what's happening in this Country now is manifest destiny too so I supose you are ok with it since you're such a fan of manifest destiny? It's silly to blame someone today for what their ancestor's may have done but it's attitudes like your's that keep that old mentality alive. I've said all I need to say to make my point. Rant if you wish but you'll do it without me.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 09:08:37 AM »
The current "Native Americans" (or current name dejour) were not the first nations to live here.  None of us would exist today without Manifest Destiny.

Okay, as you are an anthropologist, please tell me who was here before First Nation peoples, aka " Native Americans", aka "Indians" ? You were not here first  but are you not decended from those who came before you? I study Anthropology and Archeology, as a modern day traditionalist it's things needed to be learned, and it is a known fact that historic tribes decended from those who first set foot on this continent. And oh yes, " Manifest Destiny " the European's blanket excuse to take by force, exterminating many whole tribes in the process, that which wasn't theirs to take. Never mind that the Creator made us as we were and thus we had a right to be so. Ever hear the true facts of Thanksgiving?  But they did it in the name of progress, because their way of life was the only one that mattered, and they called it manifest destiny, so that makes it ok right? Please don't preach to me of manifest destiny. It seems rather obvious that that is actually the bee in your bonnet as you keep refering to it. Perhaps what's happening in this Country now is manifest destiny too so I supose you are ok with it since you're such a fan of manifest destiny? It's silly to blame someone today for what their ancestor's may have done but it's attitudes like your's that keep that old mentality alive. I've said all I need to say to make my point. Rant if you wish but you'll do it without me.

Great points !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 09:17:53 AM »
I would add that there was a womans body found in ice . Her body is one of the oldest ever found with useable DNA . She was sampled as were people all over the world. Seems decendents from all over the world can be traced back to her DNA. Some from several different races of people. Some with different skin color. It begs the question was that sailor that came to America in 1492 kin to those who walked across the ice bridge centuries before ? If so did not the sailors people who came first allow him to claim his people were first ? If so can we ask if you believe in the Bible story of creation would not all the people in the world be able to lay claim ?
Funny how things look sometimes when ya step back a bit
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 09:57:42 AM »
Current scientific thought is that the first people here were seal hunters from Europe.  Everybody after that is an interloper.  I agree that what is happening now in Manifest Destiny, and like those before us (the NDNs) we will likely be routed out.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 10:07:19 AM »
Current scientific thought is that the first people here were seal hunters from Europe.  Everybody after that is an interloper.  I agree that what is happening now in Manifest Destiny, and like those before us (the NDNs) we will likely be routed out.
Can you hit me with the paper or papers that put forth this theory?

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 01:53:38 PM »
You know? I said I was finished but that statement is so ignorant I can't believe you said it. If you wish to base your beliefs on theory to make you feel better about what was done in the name of manifest destiny, well what ever blows your skirt up but here is scientific fact.

There have been several models for the human settlement of the Americas proposed by various academic communities. The question of how, when and why humans (Paleo-Indians) first entered the Americas is of intense interest to archaeologists and anthropologists, and has been a subject of heated debate for centuries. Current understanding of human migration to and throughout the Americas derives from advances in four integrated disciplines: archeology, physical anthropology, DNA analysis and linguistics.

While there is general agreement that America was first settled from Asia by people who migrated across Beringia, the pattern of migration, its timing, and the place of origin in Asia of the peoples who migrated to the Americas remains unclear. In recent years researchers have sought to use familiar tools to validate or reject established theories like Clovis first. As new discoveries come to light, past hypotheses are reevaluated and new theories constructed. The archeological evidence suggest that Paleo-Indians' first "widespread" habitation of the Americas occurred during the end of the last glacial period, or more specifically what is known as the late glacial maximum, around 16,500–13,000 years ago.

 Additionally, it is possible that "Beringian" (western Alaskan) or European groups migrated into the northern interior and coastlines only to meet their demise during the last glacial maximum, approximately 20,000 years ago, leaving evidence of occupation in specific localized areas. However they would not be considered a founding population, unless they had managed to migrate south, populate and survive the coldest part of the last ice-age of which there is no evidence.

 With that I am done. I'm tire of trying to inject fact into your fantasy.

Offline Swampman

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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 02:18:45 PM »
I think I'm done and then you say something ridiculous again. Give me a break, do you not notice the terms, According to Solutrean THEORY....Proponents of the Solutrean HYPOTHESIS...THEORY-HYPOTHESIS???????

Did you not read farther?

Critics of the HYPOTHESIS, citing further research and discoveries as well as logical inconsistencies, have clarified and refuted many of the points put forth by Solutrean proponents. Most of the supposedly pre-Clovis sites, for example, have been found on deeper investigation to be less ancient than initially thought. In addition, Kennewick Man has not been definitively identified as Caucasian; he may have been Native American, and in any case his skeleton is only 7,500-9,000 years old, too recent to support the Solutrean-first hypothesis.

Better genetic research, further, has turned up examples of haplogroup X in Native Americans, strengthening the already well-supported link between Asia and the Americas. Researchers have also pointed out that conditions were likely not favorable for an Atlantic crossing at the time of the supposed Solutrean migration; it is uncertain whether an extensive ice pack existed between the continents, and no evidence of boats or human habitation have so far been found along the route.

Finally, even though Clovis and Solutrean points are similar in design and manufacture, most critics dismiss this as mere coincidence, since there are only so many ways of making stone tools, and further state that art like that found in European caves has never been discovered in the Americas; it seems unlikely that the Solutrean people would have brought their tools but not their art to the New World.



I give you FACT...you give me THEORY and you don't even bother to read the whole article you wish to quote. If I hadn't already made my case, you just made it for me! This just suports what I already posted. It's also obvious that your problem has nothing at all to do with who said what but is instead about me calling my people First Nation and your feeling manifest destiny justifies what was done to them.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 02:31:15 PM »
I gave you the latest theory.  You gave me an older theory.  Native Americans are scared to death of Kennewick.  They have done every thing they could to stop research into the pre-Native Americans cultures in this coutry.  I'm interested in science and I don't have a dog in the fight.  I don't draw a check from the taxpayers.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 03:01:18 PM »
I gave you theory based on fact and you gave me plain theory based on nothing, can you not read? And what "Indians" have done is protest the digging up of sacred sites! How would you like someone digging up the floor of your church just to see what's underneath? There is genetic and archeological evidence for what I claim, where is your evidence? The very article you refer to plainly says that it doesn't exist so I guess you'll tell me that part must have been  written by an "Indian"? And there you go again making derogatory racist remarks. All "Indians" draw checks huh? Well I do draw a check. A pension actually...... as a disabled Vietnam Vet! You've shown yourself for what you are and I'll let your own words decide what people think of you. I tried to be polite. You abused that fact. You pretend to know my culture. I live it. I said I had respect for you, but I'm afraid that respect is fast wilting away. End of story!

Offline Dee

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 03:02:34 PM »
This is gettin really good. Do you guys really think your gonna break ole Swampy? :D He'll never give in and admit he was misinformed on the original quote he started the thread with, and that is where his issue really is. He'll go at it until ya'll all drop. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

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Re: Native American Wisdom
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 04:38:49 PM »
This is gettin really good. Do you guys really think your gonna break ole Swampy? :D He'll never give in and admit he was misinformed on the original quote he started the thread with, and that is where his issue really is. He'll go at it until ya'll all drop. ;)

Gee Dee, and you didn't bring any popcorn? ;)