looks like we will soon have 12 to 30,000,000 brand new American "brothers"..

[Dixie Dude]

Amen, Ironglow.  Most of the libs are former hippies anyway, want everything free, want a utopia.  Never was and never will be with the sinful human nature.  Capitalism and freedom are the only way to unleash the power of the productive people to invent, work hard, provide jobs, and make our nation prosper and get rich and powerful again. 

[marine]

  Outside of the fact that obama is bad for the country,  the citizenship of illegal aliens is not all that bad since they will be expectected to pay taxes for the jobs they hold instead of stealing money from the govt and earn thier health care.  I think most of us forget where we came from in this world.  America was started as a safe haven for people from all over the world and i believe that it still should be that way.  Our country is only a few hundred years old so im sure that many of us have immigrants in our family as well.  Mine has only been here since the mid 1800's and im glad that we came so i had the opportunity to be born and grow up in this nation. 
  Let others experience the same freedoms as you and your famillies do and give their children the same chance to grow up in america just as yours do.  Lets not hate them based on where they are from and what language they speak.  Give us your poor, your tired, your hungry.  HAVE WE FORGOTTEN.  I have served and i feel this is why we do it.  Help people less fortunate and stop hate. 

[Dixie Dude]

Problem is most will be on the low end of the payrolls, thus paying little or no taxes, but getting the benefits.  Will the taxes they pay offset the benefits they would get?  I vote to send them home like Ike did in the 50's, rounded up 2,000,000 illegals and bussed them and shipped them 500 miles into Mexico and dumped them.  How many of these Illegals are drug dealers and pushers, how many are potential terroists, how many are fugitives from justice?  That is why there are LEGAL means to enter this country.

[powderman]

I vote to send them home like Ike did in the 50's, rounded up 2,000,000 illegals and bussed them and shipped them 500 miles into Mexico and dumped them.  How many of these Illegals are drug dealers and pushers, how many are potential terroists, how many are fugitives from justice?  That is why there are LEGAL means to enter this country.


YEP. Closer to 20 million now but it can be done, all we have to is start with one busload, or boatload, then repeat the process til they are finally GONE. Can't do it, unless we start. POWDERMAN. 

[teamnelson]

  Outside of the fact that obama is bad for the country,  the citizenship of illegal aliens is not all that bad since they will be expectected to pay taxes for the jobs they hold instead of stealing money from the govt and earn thier health care.  I think most of us forget where we came from in this world.  America was started as a safe haven for people from all over the world and i believe that it still should be that way.  Our country is only a few hundred years old so im sure that many of us have immigrants in our family as well.  Mine has only been here since the mid 1800's and im glad that we came so i had the opportunity to be born and grow up in this nation. 
  Let others experience the same freedoms as you and your famillies do and give their children the same chance to grow up in america just as yours do.  Lets not hate them based on where they are from and what language they speak.  Give us your poor, your tired, your hungry.  HAVE WE FORGOTTEN.  I have served and i feel this is why we do it.  Help people less fortunate and stop hate. 

We have a legal immigration process, just like the one my grandparents went through. I don't think anyone here is anti immigration. Just anti Illegal immigration. If the 20 million are willing to go back through the process, then welcome. Of course that means they have to show proof of legal employment and $10k in savings to cover return costs should they lose their job. That's what they ask of others, sounds fair.

[WylieKy]

The subject is that Obama is talking of granting amnesty to 30, 000,000 illegal aliens and you dumb bustards are bashing Georg Bush! No damn wonder we are going down the tubes!
                                         Beerbelly

If I thought (knew) someone had an intention of breaking into my house, I would lock the door before I fixed the fence.  The whole TERROR thing amuses me.  When faced with an imminent TERROR threat, our government chose to attack terrorists and villagers 6000 miles away, yet leave our borders (north, south, east, west, above, and below) more or less at a "revolving door" status.

I can't stand Obama.  I think he is probably tied with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and George Bush ((Un)Patriot Act?) as the worst thing that has ever happened to our country.  I think that the point was not to bash Bush, but to lay blame on all responsible parties.  September 12, 2001 we should have begun securing our borders.  By September 12, 2002 there should have been no more illegal immigrants.

[powderman]

September 12, 2001 we should have begun securing our borders.  By September 12, 2002 there should have been no more illegal immigrants.


YEP, I definitely agree with that. POWDERMAN. 

[marine]

  I happen to know plenty of americans that are dealers and pushers and they mooch off the system and lie about disabilities etc.  they are allowed to live here just because their parents decided to have a child on this soil.  Not right I say.  Those who think mexicans and cubans are bad people and lazy must not know any and its sad way to be.
  If our forefathers had to pass an immigration test how many would be here.  many of them were crimminals escaping their homeland as well as escaping persecution for religious reasons.  All were trying to gain a new start.  Its alot harder to become a legal immigrant than you might think which is why many are simply here through marriage.  some of the posts seem to make a point of just dumping them in the middle of their war torn impoverished country.  Are they no longer people due to the fact they crossed an imaginary line created by a govt that you have come to no longer beleive in? 

[billy_56081]

  I happen to know plenty of americans that are dealers and pushers and they mooch off the system and lie about disabilities etc.  they are allowed to live here just because their parents decided to have a child on this soil.  Not right I say.  Those who think mexicans and cubans are bad people and lazy must not know any and its sad way to be.
  If our forefathers had to pass an immigration test how many would be here.  many of them were crimminals escaping their homeland as well as escaping persecution for religious reasons.  All were trying to gain a new start.  Its alot harder to become a legal immigrant than you might think which is why many are simply here through marriage.  some of the posts seem to make a point of just dumping them in the middle of their war torn impoverished country.  Are they no longer people due to the fact they crossed an imaginary line created by a govt that you have come to no longer beleive in? 

So are you saying just open up the borders and let every one in?

[torpedoman]

A new poll conducted in Mexico says that if amnesty is granted 56% of them will seriously consider moving to the U.S.

[teamnelson]

  I happen to know plenty of americans that are dealers and pushers and they mooch off the system and lie about disabilities etc.  they are allowed to live here just because their parents decided to have a child on this soil.  Not right I say.  Those who think mexicans and cubans are bad people and lazy must not know any and its sad way to be.
  If our forefathers had to pass an immigration test how many would be here.  many of them were crimminals escaping their homeland as well as escaping persecution for religious reasons.  All were trying to gain a new start.  Its alot harder to become a legal immigrant than you might think which is why many are simply here through marriage.  some of the posts seem to make a point of just dumping them in the middle of their war torn impoverished country.  Are they no longer people due to the fact they crossed an imaginary line created by a govt that you have come to no longer beleive in? 

So if you're opposed to illegal immigration, you are racist? Lots of hispanics in my home state of Arizona must be racist then, since they would like the illegal Mexicans to go through the same legal process they did to become citizens. It's not about race. And again, its not about denying anyone opportunity. Its about the law. Are you saying you advocate criminal activity?

And does not a sovereign nation have a right to determine who should become a citizen? Or should the entire planet be allowed to move to North America because they come from impoverished war torn countries? And what would they come to? 17% unemployment? A busted housing market? Inflation? Busted health care, busted state governments, educations systems that have to close because there's not enough $ to run it for the children we have? Have you thought through the ramifications of what you're suggesting? Things are a bit different now than in the frontier days of the 19th century.

[marine]

powderman stated that they were pushers and criminals so that was my response. Never did i call anyone a racist.  I feel that profiling shouldnt be used.  No i dont think the entire planet should move here but if they were already here then tax them and let them help bear the economic burden we do.  I cant see sending them home with our transportation being any more than an wasteful use of money and gas that the majority of america already worries about.  It could create some new jobs for america though, until the illegal immigrants are all home, then we will have a giant jump in unemployment and talk of a recession.

[WylieKy]

And again, its not about denying anyone opportunity. Its about the law.

A law unto itself is silly.  Let's look at the reason behind the law. Those that do not follow legal channels to enter our coutry may be fine, hard working, contributing members of society.  However, the law was instated to try to keep out the criminals, the diseased, and those with other attributes that may be down right destructive to our country.  Because the fine, hard working, contirbuting illegal immigrants didn't follow proper channels, they streach the limits of our saftey nets (welfare and health care systems) and our LEO resources.  Yes they are looking for a better life for themselves and family, which may be honorable, but they are dragging the rest of us down to do it, much like a drowing swimmer will accidently drown their rescuer.

[teamnelson]

How does a hard working illegal immigrant contribute? They cannot pay taxes, serve in the military, or hold an office of public trust. They cannot operate a small business which would provide opportunity for others, as they cannot get a tax I'd, or carry insurance. Everytime they use any public service (medical, dental, education, etc) they are using a tax funded service to which they've made no contribution.

If they are as honorable as you claim, why did they enter illegally?

[Spirithawk]

Is it fair to those who go through the dificulties to become citizens legaly to exspect us to cater to the wants and needs of those not willing to do the same? Let me ask you this, say you feel charitable. You open your doors to the needy and serve them meals every day. You simply ask them to register with you first so you'll know how much food you'll need to feed them. Word gets around and you're suddenly flooded with hoards expecting to be fed, but who not only refuse to first register, but who also refuse to even wait in line. Now how long do you supose you'd be able to continue to help those who were patient and who followed the rules? How long could you help anyone at all? It is much the same with illegal aliens. They destroy the chances for those willing to follow the rules, both of legal imigrants and all born here as well. Eventually no one will benifit at all and all will suffer and with limited resources it will happen much sooner than later. Take any given space, keep putting more and more and more people into it and guess what. Eventually it becomes so full no more will fit. Not only that but folks will be packed in so tight that many won't even be able to breath and will suffer and die. Keep the borders open. Keep letting hoards flow in and everyone, regardless of race or prosperity, will suffer... including the Country itself. Other countries have problems then let the citizens of those countries do something about it instead of running here and exspecting a free ride. We can't even fix our own problems, what in the h*** makes anyone think we can fix those of other countries or take in their people indefinitely?

[ironglow]

 Marine;
  Many of us served and I doubt anyone here is "anti-immigrant" as the lefties like to chant.  But I am quite sure most here are anti ILLEGAL immigrant. I marvel that so many people have such a struggle with that word..  Just what part of ILLEGAL do they not understand ?
    For every one who has broken into the country and who the lefties want to make legal..there is one LEGAL immigrant who is doing it the HONEST way and may be put off for several years, due to "line jumpers".
  I am not even against a "guest worker" program, for years when there is plenty of work. Let's just close the border and using fingerprints or retinal I.D., arrange an orderly process for them, including a way they can pay hospitalization insurance while they are here and not steal such services. They must go back once a year and NO "anchor babies", since that is just a cheap shot way of "jumping the line".
  The border must be closed first..when your house is afire...first, PUT OUT THE FIRE..then later the fire inspectors can decide what went wrong and work to correct it.

  As far as your "I happen to know plenty of Americans who are dealers and pushers"....
        I have just one question..   What; you haven't turned them in yet ? If not, why do you allow these dregs destroy your neighborhood, state and eventually possibly the nation ? getting the pushers and users off the street and out of the neighborhood is just as important as fighting any enemy we ever had.
  IMO...anyone who knowingly lets these parasites operate in their neighborhood/town, is about equal to an old crow that fouls it's own nest !

  Spirithawk;
   You should have added that this unruly, latecomer horde, not only won't register and wait at the door for food...they walk past you,  break into your house and plunder what they want...

[Spirithawk]

I feel that we first need to take care of our own problems. When we don't have homeless, jobless, nor starving then we can think about helping other countries with theirs but it is ignorant and iressponsible to worry about other's while our very own suffer! Would you starve your children to feed someone elses? Well that's exactly what these pro-illegal imigrant people are asking you to do!

Ironglow, I would have but, being AniKituhwagi, I get yelled at for saying those kind of things. 

[marine]

spirithawk i completely agree with you about our own homeless and they are starving in our streets.  I have housed them and helped them get jobs and make lives for themselves.  this is for everyone. I never said to let illegals flood across the border and steal your land.  I feel they are already here and what the hell does it matter now.  No one can fix the problem , its too late.  if even a few come forward to register to be a citizen and have an income and pay taxes, then its better than it is now.  Im not at all trying to anger any of you, and if i have I apologize.

[bearmgc]

I would not be opposed to a guest worker visa available to those who are already here, but only after the border is sealed. And those here would have to register within 60 days or be shipped back. They would have taxes deducted from their paychecks, and would have to re-register every 6months, with a maximum of three years on their Guest visa. Then they have to go back to their country and wait 6mo before registering again. And that subsequent guest visa is subject to denial. What I am more interested in doing is identifying those employers, who used illegal aliens in their business, and prosecute them to the fullest, for each and every illegal they employ. To the subject of drug smugglers. Residents should be able to shoot on site, any illegal aliens carrying guns or drugs on their property, period.

[billy_56081]

Marine in one post you say you never said to let illegals flood across our borders and in another you call our border an imaginary line.


You aint makin much sense!

[Spirithawk]

spirithawk i completely agree with you about our own homeless and they are starving in our streets.  I have housed them and helped them get jobs and make lives for themselves.  this is for everyone. I never said to let illegals flood across the border and steal your land.  I feel they are already here and what the hell does it matter now.  No one can fix the problem , its too late.  if even a few come forward to register to be a citizen and have an income and pay taxes, then its better than it is now.  Im not at all trying to anger any of you, and if i have I apologize.

I never meant to sound like I was refering to something you said. I was simply speaking my mind and trying to incert some common sense into the discussion. I just feel that if we aren't allowing the Country to be sold at one moment, then we're allowing it to be given away at the next. Face it folks, unless the line is drawn somewhere then we'll find ourselves with nothing left to sell nor give. Then what? Think these other Countries will take us in in great numbers? You willing to just turn what you have over to someone else and simply walk away and hope to be able to start from scratch elsewhere? That is exactly the corner we're being crowded into and it's foolish to even begin to try and deny it.

[gypsyman]

Seems the reason that they come to this country, is they want a better way of life. Standards are higher, oppourtunitys are better. My question is, why didn't they just stay in their own country and improve what they already have? gypsyman

[Spirithawk]

Seems the reason that they come to this country, is they want a better way of life. Standards are higher, oppourtunitys are better. My question is, why didn't they just stay in their own country and improve what they already have? gypsyman

Why work to improve things there when they can just come here and have those things without having to do anything? And, if they are so proud of where they came from, seeing as how they cram it down our throats once here, then why did they not stay there?

[WylieKy]

We're saying the same thing, but I'll respond below.  I think that it is OUR responsibility to keep the illegal immigrants out.  We are doing it for OUR well being and OUR safety.  Same reason you lock your door.  

How does a hard working illegal immigrant contribute?

Same way as any other person, with the exceptions that you noted.

If they are as honorable as you claim, why did they enter illegally?

Many, probably most, of these people are hard working, god fearing, family people trying to better themselves and their families.  Many of them do not have the time, money, or education to go through normal "legal" channels.


Do not demonize these people to insulate yourself from the hard reality of what needs to be done.  A secure border would likely cause many people to live the remainder of their lives in abject poverty.  Children who would otherwise be educated and fed will remain ignorant and hungry.  People will die in everyday accidents and from everyday ailments that would be no problem to remedy in the US.

Freedom isn't free.  It is not fair to have our police and military have to live with causing pain, destruction, and death to preserve our way of life, then skip out on our share of the guilt by saying that all the people we are (well, should be    ) keeping out are scumbag low life criminals.  The only thing many of them have done wrong was be born in the wrong place, and wrong class, be that Mexico, Guatemala, Cuba, Sudan, Bosnia, or where ever.  

Hopefully, given enough time and the proper motivation, these people will raise up and take control of their own destinies and build their own land of prosperity.  Till then we need to build bigger and better walls, dig deeper ditches, and man the posts to ward against the damage that a few terrorists or drug dealers  out of the horde of every day people can do.

 

[ironglow]

Wylie;
  They don't need citizenship or voting power here to do that, They can elevate themselves on a temporary work permit and help the country which is graceful enough to help them by purchasing health insurance, paying taxes, and assuming same responsibilities assumed by legal citizens whom they work with and among. It certainly looks from their "protests", that if they were given the right to vote...they would vote to bring the chaos they have back home, into this country.
  Obviously, if they shouldered the same costs/responsibilities the rest of us do, their wages may have to rise. That way the honest, legal citizen may be able to compete equally for the job filled now by an illegal. That's called "fair play", and would raise the standards for all people employed in these jobs.
  
  Bearmgc (#108) has it right...good sense there !  

   Spirithawk... tells us about these people moving into our land, invading, infiltrating and suppressing our culture to force their own (which they are fleeing from), do you suppose it's likely that he and his own have had some experience with that in the past ? ...And can we take a clue from their painfully earned wisdom ?

[marine]

  billy56081,  Its just a line to me when people need refuge and are crossing the border to escape the terrible situation in mexico.  No i dont think there should be a massive immigration to the U.S. from Mexico.  But how do you have one without the other.  Stop more from coming but if they are already here just let them be.      

[beerbelly]

Its just a line to me when people need refuge and are crossing the border to escape the terrible situation in Mexico
 
So you want to let them come here and they will and do bring that terrible situation with them! Let them kill each other at home and not come here and kill our people as they are now doing!
 Where do you think those dealers and pushers you know are getting their dope? Mexico much of it being hauled in by  the illegal’s, as payment to the cartel that is bringing them here.
  They are not immigrants! They are illegal aliens! Immigrants come through immigration to get here!
                                   Beerbelly

[marine]

beerbelly sorry you beat me to my edit. In ohio the farm fields and parks are where drugs are grown. The dealers more often than not bring the heavy drugs in and go back to get more.  Its not the citizens causing problems its the military and the police in mexico causing the issues.  

[Spirithawk]

Wylie;
  They don't need citizenship or voting power here to do that, They can elevate themselves on a temporary work permit and help the country which is graceful enough to help them by purchasing health insurance, paying taxes, and assuming same responsibilities assumed by legal citizens whom they work with and among. It certainly looks from their "protests", that if they were given the right to vote...they would vote to bring the chaos they have back home, into this country.
  Obviously, if they shouldered the same costs/responsibilities the rest of us do, their wages may have to rise. That way the honest, legal citizen may be able to compete equally for the job filled now by an illegal. That's called "fair play", and would raise the standards for all people employed in these jobs.
  
  Bearmgc (#108) has it right...good sense there !  

   Spirithawk... tells us about these people moving into our land, invading, infiltrating and suppressing our culture to force their own (which they are fleeing from), do you suppose it's likely that he and his own have had some experience with that in the past ? ...And can we take a clue from their painfully earned wisdom ?

Thank you, thank you, thank you! At least someone gets what I've been trying to say.

[WylieKy]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! At least someone gets what I've been trying to say.

I find this quietly, maybe sadly, ironic.  Most of the truly poor "Mexicans" are damn near pure "First Nationers." This is even more true for the Central American peoples. You know, the shorter, copper skin folk with the semi-Asiatic features and hair as black as a raven wing?  The conquistadors didn't look much like that.  Their culture and way of life still cleave true as well.  Go to Mexico, get 10 miles from the coast or 25 miles from the city, and you'll find....Indians.  Dressing, living, and often even speaking the way their ancestors did 200+ years ago.  Don't get me wrong, they have upgrades such as tin can roofs and an occasion VW bug or bus.

Its just a line to me when people need refuge and are crossing the border to escape the terrible situation in Mexico

See above, and do a little research that doesn't include Cancun or Mexico city or any town within 100 miles of our border.
 

So you want to let them come here and they will and do bring that terrible situation with them!

If this is directed at me, the answer is no.  I was simply stating that people need to "man up" and acknowledge that our decision to keep our land the way it is has a cost, and the people who pay that cost likely did nothing evil.  Illegal, yes! Evil, NO!  According the the heading of this post, 12-30,000,000 people.  If they were all (or even a significant %) bent on mayhem, destruction, terrorism, drugs, and the torture of old ladies and puppies, then the good old US of A would be burning down around us as we speak (and not cause of Obama   .)