BP revolver loading.....with patches?

[contender]

ok, not really patching the ball, but a lubed patch on top of the balls in the cylinder for lube and also chain fire prevention.........

never read about it in a forum.

but saw it here in the movie "Quick and the Dead" when a LeMat revolver was being loaded for a gunfight..........is this just movie magic and bs or is there something to this....especially for 100 degree + days at the range?
will a lubed "patch plug" really work as opposed to just lube alone? Will the patch help it stay in place?

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Image:TQTDLeMat1861-4.jpg


http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Quick_and_the_Dead%2C_The_%281995%29

[bedbugbilly]

A soft lube, such as crisco, will soften and often melt when an adjacent cylinder discharges - a common thing.  But putting a lubed patch over the ball?  Hot gasses from discharge would most likely tend to ignite it or get it glowing like an ember I would think.  With the possibility of powder granules sticking to the fouling and grease on the parts after firing a cylinder full, it would be just one more thing to ignite them.  Myself, I fail to see the purpose of it when smearing some sort of lube over the ball is sufficient and if you are using a felt wad under the ball an even added plus to help prevent chain fires.  I have to believe that this is a "Hollywood creation".  I might be wrong though . . . . just my 2 cents worth.   

[NickSS]

I have used greased felt wads under the ball in my revolvers but never heard of putting them on top of the ball.  They work quite well under the ball and I use them in all my combustible cartridges I make and carry when I am using the revolver for hunting.  They sure beat carrying loose components.

[AtlLaw]

I use them in all my combustible cartridges I make...

Hey Nick!  Do you fit the wad between the powder and ball inside the paper?   

I like making comb. cartridges but I never figured out how to do that.   

[coyotejoe]

 Thanks for the photo link. I thought that was one of the stupidest movies ever made. The concept of gunfighting as a sporting event just rubs me the wrong way but they did have some neat guns. I don't see a patch in the photos, it appears to be just a thick smear of grease. In reality I doubt it would be possible to keep a patch atop the ball. I think recoil and the blast from the cylinder gap would unseat the patch on unfired chambers. If any part of the patch should protrude above the cylinder face it would jam the gun. I think there are good reasons why you've never heard of that being done.

[BobJ]

Amazing photo links--really enjoyed. The movie looked dumb, tho. Anyway, the LeMat just had beeswax or other lube over the ball. I gave up on that and now use lubed wads under the ball. They clean and lube the barrel, and do a better job of sealing. I used Crisco over the ball for a while, but shooting blows out the Crisco, so the practice was about worthless. You will find a lot about felt wads and lube, Gatofeo or otherwise, on this forum. And a lot about LeMats, too.

[trainsteeter]

I don't like the idea of having anything in front of the ball, black powder pressure is not as high but in a smokeless load the practice would get your head blown off. I have been shooting cap and ball guns for more than forty years and have never used a patch, In all that time I had one cyl. chain fire, I really don't know what caused it but I think it was due to a loose cap. I believe proper fit of ball and cap is the safe way to go.  I forgot to mention that I use bullet lube like the lube used in reloading smokless loads.                     

[coyotejoe]

I suspect you are probably right about the loose cap causing a chain fire. I got my first C&B revolver, a Navy Arms "Yank" in 1960 and have owned and shot a slue of them since and have never experienced nor witnessed a chain fire. Like you I have always been careful to use properly fitting components. If one has to squeeze caps out of round to get them to stay on the nipples, that is not a proper fit. One should change caps or change nipples. The hazard is not great, chain fires are rare and the shooter seldom suffers any injury when they do occur, but why take the chance?

[arcticap]

ok, not really patching the ball, but a lubed patch on top of the balls in the cylinder for lube and also chain fire prevention.........

I've asked on other forums whether anyone has tried loading patched balls in a revolver, and I was surprised when a previous national match winner said that some revolver shooters do load their balls that way at the NMLRA Nationals in Friendship.
He said that there's a time limit during competition and it can slow down the loading process so not too many people load that way, but it's not an uncommon practice.
So rather than placing patches in front of the ball, patched balls can be rammed into the chambers if they're the right size and given a try.

[Flint]

I've been shooting cap & ball off and on since 1960, and have never seen anyone load a patched ball in a revolver, and was warned to not do that back in the 60's by a very experienced black powder hunter/shooter, as a patch can get fouled in the cylinder gap.

Patches are for single shot muzzle loaders, not revolvers..  Just trimming a patch to clear the face of the cylinder would be a chore, and probably need to be done on a separate cylinder loading stand, as there isn't enough room to use a patch knife in an assembled revolver.

I use a felt wad behind the ball and sometimes grease over the ball, depends on time available and the desired accuracy, target shooting and Cowboy Action have different requirements for what is the absolute best loading for the purpose.

[ZVP]

 I have used lubed felt patches almost eclusively and have noticed that some revolvers prefer crisco or a similar lube/flashover preventive. I think the picture ofthe Le Mat  shows an improper use of patching. When properly installed an over the powder, felt wad dosen't show and prevents flashover.
 Some revolvers pick up velocity and accuracy when loaded with Crisco sealed Cylinders.
 With certan .44 light powder charges it's necessary to add a filler above the powder charge such as Cream of Wheat and then a Felt Wad orCrisco.
 ZVP
 

[coyotejoe]

ok, not really patching the ball, but a lubed patch on top of the balls in the cylinder for lube and also chain fire prevention.........

I've asked on other forums whether anyone has tried loading patched balls in a revolver, and I was surprised when a previous national match winner said that some revolver shooters do load their balls that way at the NMLRA Nationals in Friendship.
He said that there's a time limit during competition and it can slow down the loading process so not too many people load that way, but it's not an uncommon practice.
So rather than placing patches in front of the ball, patched balls can be rammed into the chambers if they're the right size and given a try.

Sorry to be blunt but that is simply ridiculous! There is no way the patched ball would retain its' patch while passing the revolver's forcing cone. With the patch lost the ball would be under bore size and would fly wild. The only way I can imagine loading a patched ball would be to load it in the barrel , rammed down just short of the forcing cone and fired by a powder charge in the cylinder retained by a wad, loading and firing the revolver as a singleshot. That would indeed be a very slow way to load and what would be the advantage to repay the time and bother? I also think it a very dangerous idea to load patched balls into the cylinder. The exposed patch would be likely to catch fire from the firing of adjacent chambers and lead to a chain fire.
  And look again at the photo. There is no patch, just sticky grease with "strings" of grease sticking up which to some eyes may resemble loose threads of cloth.
 ZVP, you are using the word "patch" when actually referring to a "wad", not the same thing at all.

[fistmil]

In order to patch a ball in a revolver, the ball must be undersized. It is supposed to fit tight enough to shave a small ring of lead off of the ball. Other than getting a tight fit on an undersized ball, I see no reason to patch a ball in a revolver.

[arcticap]

Here's the response of the eyewitness to the practice which is
in post #9 of my thread on thehighroad.org dated 12/5/2008 titled:

Loading Patched Balls in a Revolver?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=410840&highlight=nationals

Has Been Tried

This method has been used at thr Nationals with Great success. It really does
work well. It is a lot of extra work, You really don't gain anything over just
the plain RB. It's a real booger in the 10 min. 10 shos timed fire match.

[coyotejoe]

Reading that link does not clarify things for me. I still can't imagine loading a patched ball into the cylinder. I have to think he is referring to loading the patched ball down the bore as a single shot with only powder and wad in the chamber. He does say it offers no advantage so why would anyone do it?

[Gatofeo]

More confusion here than an ethics seminar at the annual American Bar Association meeting ... 

Cap and ball revolvers have always been designed to use an oversized ball, without a patch. If you wrap the ball in a cloth patch before ramming, the edges of the chamber will cut through the cloth patch as the oversized ball is forced in.
I suspect that there's confusion between a single-shot pistol -- which uses an undersized ball enclosed in a cloth patch, before ramming down the barell (barrel, not cylinder) or the use of felt wads over the powder of a cap and ball revolver chamber before the oversized ball is rammed down.
Through the years I've seen a great deal of confusion among newbies concerning the terms patch, wad, felt wad, etc. I suspect that's the case here.

[mcwoodduck]

The gunk in the chambers over the bullet looks like Bore butter.
I had some for a while it is more wax than grease.
The lube over the bullet was a way to
A) stop chain fires.  The sparks can not get around a poor shaped chamber and an ill fiting projectile to ignite.
B) acts as a lube for the bullet