Author Topic: Another FTF question/problem (Read 4359 times)

bikerbeans · « **on:** June 25, 2010, 03:40:03 AM »

Hi All,

First off I solved the problem by putting this HV frame back on the 223 barrel, it never fails to fire on the 223 barrel, regardless of how hot the 223 round. I have shot several hundred 223 rounds with no problems. This frame however has a problem that only comes to light on heavier caliber barrels. I have had FTFs with 2 different 45/70 barrels and a 30-06 barrel with this reciever. The FTFs only occur with loads that are near maximum. The scenario is the same each time, start shooting a ladder test, get within a couple of grains of max and the guns starts the FTFs. Each time I have a FTF, I recock and the gun (i don't not reopen and close the action) and it shoots the second time, everytime. Anyway, like I said, this frame is back on the orginal 223 barrel and shooting very well so it isn't something I need to fix at this time. But I am curious what folks think is happening with the heavier loads that makes it FTF.

BB

wreckhog · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2010, 04:13:01 AM »

Same primers in the 45-70 and 30-06?

bikerbeans · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2010, 04:41:49 AM »

Large Rifle, both Remington & Winchesters had the same problem with the hotter loads.

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2010, 05:13:35 AM »

That sounds strange. Detonating the primer shouldn't have anything to do with the amount of powder in front of it.

Pete

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2010, 05:18:37 AM »

If those other barrels are fitted correctly might be a burr on the firing pin. Smoke your latch shelf and see if you are getting even wear across the shelf..with the closer to max loads and see how the lock up on it is doing..

Mac

petemi · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2010, 05:43:37 AM »

Mac, not to be rude, just curious. What does lockup have to do with load? The latch shelf has no clue as to what's loaded in the cartridge ahead of it. Am I missing something? I'm only a novice at this.

Pete

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2010, 06:02:43 AM »

Just a shot in the dark.... maybe it has to do with fouling in the chamber and/or on the shelf, try cleaning the chamber and shelf before loading the last few rounds.

Tim

bikerbeans · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2010, 06:21:52 AM »

Pete,

I think a bad lockup on the gun would change the alignment between the primer and the firing pin. That is what I think, Tim is thinking with his post on the cleaning the chamber/latch area.

I think the FTF has something to do with the heavier recoil affecting the transfer bar or something in the trigger assembly. I left this little info. out of the OP, if I shot a heavy load, then cock the gun and fire it on the spent round, then load another round the gun I do not have the FTF. I think the heavy kick is moving something around in the receiver. I have shot 223 Rems with this receiver that completely smeared the primers but didn't cause a fail to fire on the next shot. Even with a hot 223, not much recoil in relation to a 1800 FPS 405 grain cast lead bullet.

Since I am shooting submoa now with this receiver on the 223 I am not going to put it back on a large caliber barrel. Just thinking down the road in case FTFs start to occur with the 223s.

thanks

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** June 25, 2010, 06:31:59 AM »

If the transfer bar is loose and floppy more than normal, I'd replace it, or at least repeen it to tighten it up to see if it helps. Are ya gettin tired after the long string of shooting and possibly not following thru with the trigger pull? Another shot it the dark!!

Tim

bikerbeans · « **Reply #9 on:** June 25, 2010, 06:55:10 AM »

Tim,

I am making a concerted effort to hold the trigger back for a count, everytime I shoot. I am making it habit so I can elimnate one possible issue while hunting. If the FTF problem shows up shooting 223 I will disassemble the receiver, do a trigger job and inspect/replace the transfer bar. Also, probably put a wolff spring in also. I hope it doesn't need disassembly, as it is currently my most accurate Handi.

BB

petemi · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2010, 06:59:52 AM »

I think bad lockup would occur with either light or heavy loads. The rifle doesn't know what's loaded in the case. Something has to be wrong in the transfer bar area.

Pete

mtbugle · « **Reply #11 on:** June 25, 2010, 07:14:06 AM »

Maybe shoot the hot loads first and see if problem follows same pattern. Also if first round works good but second doesn't would add credibility to recoil induced factor mentioned.
Thanks Don.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 25, 2010, 10:17:22 AM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on June 25, 2010, 06:21:52 AM

Pete,

I think a bad lockup on the gun would change the alignment between the primer and the firing pin. That is what I think, Tim is thinking with his post on the cleaning the chamber/latch area.

I think the FTF has something to do with the heavier recoil affecting the transfer bar or something in the trigger assembly. I left this little info. out of the OP, if I shot a heavy load, then cock the gun and fire it on the spent round, then load another round the gun I do not have the FTF. I think the heavy kick is moving something around in the receiver. I have shot 223 Rems with this receiver that completely smeared the primers but didn't cause a fail to fire on the next shot. Even with a hot 223, not much recoil in relation to a 1800 FPS 405 grain cast lead bullet.

Since I am shooting submoa now with this receiver on the 223 I am not going to put it back on a large caliber barrel. Just thinking down the road in case FTFs start to occur with the 223s.

thanks

BB

Same here..but..if it's all good..then as I said you might have a firing pin hanging up especially if you can just re cock it and fire the shell.Most FTF I've had won't allow the shell to go off at all..Like Tim said..clean it good before the next time out and see what happens..including the firing pin area..I've gotten junk and crude in mine before and a little lube made it better.

Mac

NFG · « **Reply #13 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:10:58 AM »

What you are describing has NOTHING to do with the load...it MIGHT be an artifact of the recoil...which is a mechanical problems somewhere, probably in the trigger, transfer bar...something is hanging up...

Next time you have a FTF, wait a minute or two, open the action and see what the primer indent looks like...then see if it will fire again...if it will, it is NOT the primer but the "ignition system"...the fired primer should look normal and the unfired primer should have less of an indent.

Something is slowing down the hammer fall or interfering with the hammer falling fully...the recoil is "readjusting" whatever is causing the FTF on the second go-round.

That is unless you have a bad batch of primers, the primer pocket is deep and the primer isn't getting seated so the anvil is firm against the bottom of the primer pocket...if the primer ISN'T seated all the way to the bottom and the hammer fall isn't strong enough to seat the primer AND fire it...or the firing pin isn't quite long enough or have enough inertial then FTF will drive you up the wall. All these things have happened to me at one time or another.

The best thing to do is strip the action...check each part of the ignition system to be sure it is functioning correctly, start over with a new box of primers, buy a CARBIDE primer pocket uniformer and work over the brass...check each item in a step by step way and eliminate them one by one...so you won't be chasing your tail. I would start with the gun, THEN check the ammo buy using at least two different brands of cases, and at least two, maybe three brands of primers...some primers have harder cups so a light strike caused by a slow hammer coupled with the intertia style firing pin can make you do bad things.

The Handi has an inertia type of firing pin so just about ANY hammer slow down or light strike, hard primer, or primer not seated deep enough can case FTF's.

And check things TWICE...I've worked on problems without finding a solution only to go back, recheck and find I didn't quite look hard enough or glossed over "something that couldn't possiblly case THAT problem" and have it jump up and give me the "red face".

Luck

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:22:08 AM »

Another thing to check on a scoped rifle is if the heavier recoil is causing the scope to move forward and make contact with the hammer slowing the hammer fall.....been there.

Tim

bikerbeans · « **Reply #15 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:55:19 AM »

Tim,

I figured the moving scope one out already on my 45/70 shorty. Two nice dings in the eyebox on my old weaver.

NFG,

You are right I should wait abit and check the indent, but having shot muzzleloaders for a long, long time I am a bit chicken to open up a gun that I have already pulled the trigger on a live load.

BB

NFG · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2010, 04:32:15 PM »

Welllllll....you have to open it SOMETIME...two minutes is sufficient time for safety.

I would suspect a deep chamber or headspace problem...the first hammer blow pushes the cartridge down enough to set it and the second one actually fires the round. I would suspect that even more if the frame will work 100% with another barrel(OEM?) and a headspace problem if several barrels are having FTF with one frame.

I learned a long time ago to start at the beginning and work to the end...usually it's something simple and overlooked...sometimes a car won't start because it's out of gass...simple things are not always looked at in the rush to find that exotic reason.

I think you have pretty much isolated the problem to the "other" barrels...now all you have to do is fix EACH barrel...

Luck

bikerbeans · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2010, 04:54:48 PM »

NFG,

You don't have to open it when it always fires on the second try. The "other" barrels, when installed on other frames do not have FTF issues. I think the issue is in the moving parts of this particular SB2 receiver. At some point I will tear it down and see.

Everyone,

I appreciate all your comments and help with my Handis.

thanks

BB

gcrank1 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2010, 06:07:13 AM »

+1 from me on the recoil side of this. Question is, is it affecting you, or as NFG says, the works.
With a heavy kicker it may be throwing you off(?) on that trigger follow-through during the recoil impulse. That is the easiest to 'work on' without tearing it down.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2010, 06:13:21 AM »

gcrank1,

You may be on to something as my wife has been telling me for years that i am "off".

BB

NFG · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2010, 07:08:28 AM »

Yesssss....I know you don't have to open it just cock the hammer again...the suggestion was a way of observing a possible condition...seems like it blew right by you or I didn't fully explain the reasons of doing it....

It DOESN'T MATTER if the barrels will work fine on other frames, once the facts have been established...or that this one barrel will work on another frame without problems...ONCE you establish those facts it should give you a very big clue as to where to do the hardest looking...you are talking about ONE frame and problems with ONE barrel....forget about any extraneous "stuff" and look at it in the simplest terms and in a organized way.

Pretty much all the possible problem areas have been identified and solutions or fixes have been posited...the ball is in your court now.

Luck

necchi · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2010, 07:18:22 AM »

There seem's to be an issue overlooked when guy's are fitting barrels, everyone checks fit buy measuring here, the top.
It locks up tight on the foil, and the shelf/lug fit looks good with soot applied

But this is the same barrel/frame measured in another place.

This created some side to side movement, I could get a .003 feeler in the other side! This set-up required another .001 of shim at the pivot. It really dealt a blow too accuracy, sure it locked up nice, but in a different horizontal position each time, and/or barrel movement at fireing was a huge variable.
Just another possible issue to look for and eliminate.

petemi · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2010, 09:35:02 AM »

Tim, I know most of it is there already, but there is so much good meat here in this post it ought to go in the FAQs....perhaps edited.

Pete

bikerbeans · « **Reply #23 on:** June 26, 2010, 09:41:53 AM »

Necchi,

Good point. I check the fit at 9, 12 & 3 o'clock with a feeler and then I will close the action on a piece of foil that is big enough to cover the entire breech face of the frame. I then look at the impression in the foil to see if it is evenly compressed. I do this with the ejector/extractor in place so I have to remove a bit of the foil first so it doesn't move when you close the action. I leave the ejector/extractor in place because that is how I shoot the gun.

In my mind, the problem has to be with this one particular receiver, since the FTFs have occurred on 3 different barrels with only this receiver. All 3 of these barrels work fine on the new receivers that I mated them to. I am thinking this is a transfer bar issue, related to heavy recoil on this receiver, but without tearing it down I am just guessing.

BB

Ten Ring · « **Reply #24 on:** June 26, 2010, 10:03:19 AM »

The next time you have a ftf take a short strong rubber band and loop it around the rear scope mounts and back to the hammer spur and try it.
Jim

Dagalee · « **Reply #25 on:** October 05, 2012, 06:19:57 PM »

The heavy recoil backwards is is slamming the firing pin forward with more force than normal causing the firing pin return spring to jump a coil and shorten the spring temporally. Holding the firing pin just enough forward as to not get full force of transfer bar on second trigger pull. But not far enough to prevent action opening. The second trigger pull jars the spring loose and let's the firing pin come back where it should be. The next trigger pull goes bang.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #26 on:** October 05, 2012, 06:56:55 PM »

Quote from: Dagalee on October 05, 2012, 06:19:57 PM

The heavy recoil backwards is is slamming the firing pin forward with more force than normal causing the firing pin return spring to jump a coil and shorten the spring temporally. Holding the firing pin just enough forward as to not get full force of transfer bar on second trigger pull. But not far enough to prevent action opening. The second trigger pull jars the spring loose and let's the firing pin come back where it should be. The next trigger pull goes bang.

Dagalee - I've been following this discussion to pick up any hints, but I never even considered this possibility. Now I'm curious, if this is the cause of the problem. Comments, any one?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 06, 2012, 07:13:04 AM »

Since the firing pin length is a given and the relationship of Hammer/T-Bar/F-Pin translates to the F-Pin protrusion, thus primer indent, and all the spring does is return the F-Pin to neutral (not affecting the total length at all), I dont think thats it. If, in fact, as you suggest, the F-Pin is ,"slamming... forward with MORE force than normal", it would be going off.
Dollars to donuts its the T-bar.

Dagalee · « **Reply #28 on:** October 06, 2012, 01:08:49 PM »

But it's not coming back to neutral. Something - spring , gunk , bur - is holding FP a little forward.
The extra hard slam comes from the recoil of the previous
hot round going off.
I don't have X-ray eyes but it sounds possible.
Just one of the many possibilities.
Good luck
Dagalee

gcrank1 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 06, 2012, 01:45:36 PM »

What indicates the F-Pin isnt returning to neutral?