Author Topic: Lead? (Read 1241 times)

ingwenya · « **on:** November 26, 2003, 06:54:44 PM »

Dumb question, humor me. I've been reloading ammunition for a short while. I have been ambitious enough to put the efforts into casting bullets. The question is: where do you buy the alloys for the actual bullets? I have been told that people use tire weights. I didn't know if certain manufacturers sold various allows for various casting purposes. If anyone has any input, let me know.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2003, 07:14:00 PM »

Not a dumb question. Everyone has to learn sometime. As far as salvage lead the most commonly used source of lead used for casting bullets is probably wheel weights. They work great provided they are not pushed to hard. Linotype is a harder alloy once used in typsetting (print shops) and allows bullets to be pushed faster but is becoming harder to find. Stay away from pure lead as it is to soft and will lead your barrel excessively. Unless of course you have access to tin or linotype that you can mix with it to harden it. As a side note: if you find some pure lead such as lead pipe or plumbers lead don't pass it up. Salvage it and take it to gunshows as trading stock with black powder shooters. There are also several methods to harden bullets by heating and quenching. RCBS, Lyman both have books on casting bullets that provide very good information. Veral Smith also has an excellent book on bullet casting (so I hear) and some research on this site can get you a contact number.

ingwenya · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2003, 07:29:23 PM »

I appreciate your response. I'll keep my eyes open. Thank you for the recomendations.

waksupi · « **Reply #3 on:** November 26, 2003, 07:38:21 PM »

Actually, go to the main page, and the topic right below this is moderated by Veral. May as well go to the horses mouth.

Wheel weights will do 95% of you shooting purposes. Learn about oven tempering. Buy Veral's book. Your learning curve will become VERY steep.

All you learn here that is USEFUL is basically what Veral discovered in his research, rehashed by others. Don't get me wrong, he is opinionated, and what works in Idaho may not work in Pennsylvania or where ever. But the basic knowledge and research is strong, and much more dependable than from most other sources.

Marvel · « **Reply #4 on:** November 29, 2003, 05:02:38 AM »

In this age of cheap cast bullets ,its nice to say you did cast bullets, and some black powder / schutzen always do, a few hundred rounds a year in the odd caliber they like . But the cost and time to melt and cast 1000 bullets is hardly worth while. Unless you have lots of time and lead .
You need about a hundred dollars in gear , power electric or gas , if you lube & size them,,, there is more time . Most big time pistol shooters cast their own when they started , Now they have high lead levels in their body, and recommend you not cast.,,, at least do it outside.

but if you do Bill ferguson is Arizona , sells small amounts of tin -antimony- flux , to bring soft lead up ,hard enough to shoot without lube.

Marvel

waksupi · « **Reply #5 on:** November 29, 2003, 08:58:17 AM »

Marvel - Where did you get the information the shooters had high lead levels? There are those of us who have cast for thirty and forty odd years, who have purposely had lead screenings at medical check ups. All have come in at levels less than those who live in cities, breathing the air.
The only way to get lead injestion is to handle lead, get the oxide on your hands, and then put them in your mouth. Or, heat the lead to the the point where it is about 4-500 degrees hotter than you should ever have it. If you see a red glow at any time, you have went way too hot! And this is the only condition that will put lead fumes in the air you are breathing.

So, wash your hands, and don't try to boil lead!

Marvel · « **Reply #6 on:** November 29, 2003, 10:01:56 AM »

One source was john shaw's book ,,,,,, a friend who did stained glass , two pistol bullet casters at the range in their 60s . All had high levels of lead / heavy metals. I thought yeah they did time in the navy shipyard in the foundry , but no most were officers / desk job work history.

I think job & diet had a lot to do with it. The tomato filled diet / high in C vitamins E's, a family of Italians did galvanizing for 30 years, while other employees died off regularly at younger ages.

One bullet Caster / doctor told me , 1. Do it outside ....2 Wash the area with liquid dishwasher soap (high phosphate) after ......3 Build a vent / stove pipe 4 When ever you taste that metallic smoke in you mouth your taking it in. 5 High doss of vitamin C / oranges ,,,will help rid your body of toxins .

All the sluff / slag in pot is burned alloy tin and other unknows , at less than 4-5 cents for store bought bullets ,,,,, I think about just giving it all up

Marvel

waksupi · « **Reply #7 on:** November 29, 2003, 11:37:51 AM »

To eliminate any fumes that may arise from the pot (bottom pour), put about a half inch of kitty litter on top. It reduces oxidation of the tin, which is the coat of skim you get on top of the pot. And something you don't want to be skimming off! You WANT that tin in there! The litter also helps maintain an even temperature of the alloy. The metalic taste you may get in your mouth, would be tin, rather than lead. The light elements would all be cooked off before lead would vaporize.

Marvel · « **Reply #8 on:** November 29, 2003, 01:46:09 PM »

Waksupi wrote

To eliminate any fumes that may arise from the pot (bottom pour), put about a half inch of kitty litter on top. It reduces oxidation of the tin, which is the coat of skim you get on top of the pot. And something you don't want to be skimming off! You WANT that tin in there! The litter also helps maintain an even temperature of the alloy. The metalic taste you may get in your mouth, would be tin, rather than lead. The light elements would all be cooked off before lead would vaporize.
**************************************************************
I never tried the kitty litter trick. I always flux the surface and mix the tin - antimony - lead , together .... You need to have 775 degrees to melt wheel weights, with any gray-black oxide will never go back to solution that's the lead you get in the flux / smoke, its not all tin. Perhaps the volume of casting you do is fine for you and clean air up there. But odd are you are getting some heavy metal out of the whole casting operation. If the tin is on the top of a bottom pour pot, sounds like its not mixed to me. its not just lead, zinc, copper, pewter, once they reach an oxide level by corrosion they burn off as fumes.

Marvel

waksupi · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2003, 02:32:37 PM »

I never tried the kitty litter trick.

Works good!

I always flux the surface and mix the tin - antimony - lead , together ....

The metals are already an alloy, and as such, are inseperable. The flux is more for cleaning the mix, than anything else.

You need to have 775 degrees to melt wheel weights, with any gray-black oxide will never go back to solution that's the lead you get in the flux / smoke, its not all tin.

It is my belief the grey black stuff you are seeing is the impurities that the flux is removing from the alloy.

Perhaps the volume of casting you do is fine for you and clean air up there. But odd are you are getting some heavy metal out of the whole casting operation.

That's not what MY doctor says. And I was checked in September. And I do a lot of casting.

If the tin is on the top of a bottom pour pot, sounds like its not mixed to me.

Tin is throughout the alloy, but is the most easily oxidized of the metals present.

its not just lead, zinc, copper, pewter, once they reach an oxide level by corrosion they burn off as fumes.

Try the kitty litter. You will get none of the burn off, or fumes.

Marvel · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2003, 02:40:57 AM »

Waksupi

I guess you'll have to trust your doctor, and hopefully your not getting any ill effects from your years of casting. In my 22 yrs as a helicopter mech. I have seen many coworkers tested for various work related toxins, some are fine - fine - then bang OH OH ,,, but most are solvents - synthetic oils - urethane paints.

I will have to try the litter trick, I need to cast some .38 bullets .

Marvel :grin:

Ullr · « **Reply #11 on:** December 01, 2003, 05:38:18 AM »

Just a side note here guys. The half-life of lead in your body is fairly short. I don't remember the exact length but somewhere between one to two weeks. So the idea that someone has a buildup of lead in their system from something they did years ago just doesnt add up. This is why the hobby caster even excessive really doesnt have to worry about lead build up in their body. As the time between exposes is long enough for what little lead you may get to degrade away. As long as they use common since about handling.

Hook · « **Reply #12 on:** December 01, 2003, 07:27:22 AM »

Lead poisoning is a problem that everyone should be aware of and take precautions to prevent. However, the real problem is where there are small children that may come into contact with the lead residuals. An adult can tolerate significant blood lead levels without too much problem. A child under 5 years of age can be permanently damaged or killed by much lower levels of blood in their system. The younger the child, the more susceptable they are. Keep this fact in mind when you do your casting.

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2003, 07:44:14 AM »

Ullr, dunno where you came up with that info. Not saying it is wrong either but for sure it is NOT what I've heard all of my life. What I've always heard is that once lead is in the body it is in the body for life. Could you point me to a source of information showing that info I've been assuming correct really isn't?

GB

wener · « **Reply #14 on:** December 01, 2003, 09:07:25 AM »

once lead is in your system it is there to stay!!!!!

Marvel · « **Reply #15 on:** December 01, 2003, 02:33:56 PM »

I can't say all I have read is 100%, but just from my experience "that metallic taste you get while casting " this is outside at a low temp and only around lead pot while casting, If I TIG- gas - torch - arc - weld ,,,you get a burnt steel smell but no taste, thats what gets me.

Dad has stories of pouring army men out of lead in the 30s as a kid, he's OK

I have heard they can "kelate" lead out of you body, but its slow going, medicine.

Marvel

Orygun Mark · « **Reply #16 on:** December 01, 2003, 06:36:15 PM »

go to http://www.asbestos-abatement.com/lead.htm for info on lead removal from the body and half life cycles etc...It can be removed but it isn't a fun procedure. Orygun

Ullr · « **Reply #17 on:** December 02, 2003, 10:02:49 AM »

This was based info that I had received from a chemistry professor back when I was I collage. It came up after it was found that one of the buildings on campus still had lead piping for the drinking water. After a month or two after the drinking water had been shut off, the university offered free blood tests for anyone who was concerned about lead poisoning. He went on to explain how he found this amusing that they would now offer test. Seams how any lead should be out of their system by now with the half-life of the ingested lead being about a couple of weeks.

Since your post I have gone on to do some more research into this, which I guess is what I should have done a while ago. It seams I have made an incorrect assumption that he had meant that all lead in the body would be gone. I believe now that he must have been referring to the short half-life of lead in blood.

I will let anyone do their own research, as I have not found any single good source of all the info as it varies from source to source, but in general all state the following.

Half-life of lead in body
Blood (weeks)
Organs (weeks to months)
Bone (years decades)

How much is excreted from the body immediately and how much goes to each of these areas varies by source. But it first goes to the blood then to organs then to bone and back again when blood levels drop.

So my original statement was wrong and it appears there can be a buildup of lead in the body from repeat exposure. At what level and interval I cant seam to find a straight answer.

Sorry this was so long and I hope this wasnt to confusing.

waksupi · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2003, 01:20:04 PM »

My grand father picked up a few souvenir bullets in the Argonne Forest, back during WW1. They were never removed, and sure enough, they killed him when he was about 76. He went in the service at 17, was wounded and gassed when 18. So all in all, the lead killed him pretty slow.

For those who don't want to cast, fine. However, if you own as many custom molds as some of us do, I imagine we will keep pouring along. It is (almost!) impossible to buy good quality cast rifle bullets that will properly fit the throat, and give top accuracy and velocity.

jgalar · « **Reply #19 on:** December 02, 2003, 02:54:12 PM »

A far bigger source of lead could be in your case tumbler. The lead particles can be suspended in the dust you breath in when emptying.

waksupi · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2003, 04:28:52 PM »

Absolutely right about the tumbler. The true culprit there is the primer fulminate residue. Much more of a concern than the lead.