Two questions on .223?

[454Puma]

1. I thought all commercial ammo primers were not crimped ? Or is American Eagle ammo military ammo?

2. How do you guy's get any kind of accuaracy with commercial ammo?  Cause from what I've seen so far there QC really sucks!!  OAL's all over the scale, Case specs all over the place as well or do you always see alot of streching in .223 cases? Cause if you got to trim .005-7" everytime you fire a round I can see why these case don't last long!!

3.  I know now I need to shoot heavier bullets in my Colt cause the 55gr just aint cutting it!

PMC Bronze- OAL variance .006" / Fed M193 Ball .008" / Amer Eagal .018"

[Bigeasy]

1- Some ammo is crimped, some not.  Mostly the FMJ military stuff is.

2- Most ar's shoot practice quality stuff fairly well, usually under 2 inches with optics

3 - What problem are you having now that 7 or 8 grains more bullet will cure?

Larry

[mannyrock]

  Assuming you have a really good barrel, and a well functioning AR, then I would recommend that you buy 5 or 6 different brands of good factory ammo, shoot each of them, and see which brand your rifle likes the best.  I would be really really surprised if you can't get 1.5 inch groups out of at least one particular brand.  If you can't, then I tend to believe it is the rifle or optics, and not the ammo.

    If you are trying to consistently get 3/4 to 1/2 inch groups, then I would suggest that you stop shooting combat rifles, and buy a target rifle.  You will be much happier.

  Just my thoughts.

Mannyrock

[mcwoodduck]

ATK is the parrent company for Federal.
They also own the lake City Arsenal.
I have batches of the Federal American Eagle 55 Grain FMJ boat tail rounds that have Federal head Stamps.
Most of them came in the larger box with the plastic shell holder that have the belt loops.
The last couple cases I purchased had the smaller 20 round paper boxes and all the brass says LC on it.
Same ammo loading different brass.  The Lake City plant is who is loading for the Military.  My guess is most go through the same crimp and then off to the different lines to get power and projectiles.

[454Puma]

mannyrock
  Well my Colt is used but I think very lightly used ,as it looks brand new! It does have a 1-7 twist barrel  I guess I'm asking to much from the 55 gr bullets! But since I'm loading for this I have notice  very large inconsistances with brass from four different makers,Fed, Amer Eagal, PMC ,LC ! The once shot AE was .010+"
 strech from one firng? Some after sizing ran 1.185" that's .035" over trim to length!  Now 50 yard groups were what I expected with open sights! Ran about 1"! So I figured should be about 1-1.5" at 100 yards!  Boy was I shocked at 3-4" plus  groups!   Especially from a target gun!     Once zero'd properly I never had such bad groups from any Military M16 I ever used!  For and aftermarket Target gun I expect better! Even with open sights! Hell I got a WWII G98/40 8mm thats had many years of use both war time and civilan that can shoot circles around this gun at any range! A straight unmodified WWII issued gun! With any M16 I used in the military I never had a problem hitting a man sized target out to 300m easily once properly zero'd !

[dieselman]

Now most mil-spec ammo will be made for 5.56 chambers not the .223 (yes there is a diff). I have bought many 100's of new brass that needs to be trimmed out of the box / bag. If your chamber has a long throat the necks will grow to fill it out. Some of the fac ammo with military head stamps is stuff that may not have passed mil spec so as not to trash it they sell it to jimbo that will buy it to burn up in his AR, yes groups will be openend up like your wallet at the gas pump. With reloads it should do just fine with 55gr FMJ... but you have to try a few of them out and find out what your gun likes, then try out a few powders and find out what one it likes, then primers same thing. Then for OAL you need to measure it NOT at the point of the bullet but, at the ogive cause thats where the seating die touches the bullet.

[454Puma]

dieselman
 I think your correct I did the dummy bullet in cart. check and to get a 55gr Rem to touch the rifling it would almost be 2.400" so it looks like I go to a longer heavier bullet or seat the 55's as long as I can. The Mag will only allow 2.300" so any way I go I'm going to have a good jump to the rifling!

[dieselman]

Now I have found on my guns if ya got to make a long jump use a Lee Fac crimp die (LFCD) with a med crimp will help out alot in my rifles have it cut groups down almost in half or better in some. My DPMS has a 1:9 twist and useing the LFCD I can shoot all the way down to 35gr v-max (explodes little tree monkeys) to 100 yds any way (never tried any farther). It loves the 62gr ss109 surplus pulled bullets as well, get up to 68 to 70gr and then the groups will be dime size or better @ 100yds (with scope). AR's can shoot tight groups very well but, you have to do your part and find what it likes, and most of the time its not just an off the shelf box of bullets. Good luck and have fun.

[mannyrock]

  I believe that I would try buying a couple of boxes of the factory Black Hills ammo, in the 68 (?) grain weight, match quality if possible, and see how they shoot.  If they group well, then keep that brass, throw all of the rest of the brass away, and sell any remaining 55 grain bullets.  I think you may be fighting an uphill battle against a 1 in 7 twist by using the light bullets.

Mannyrock

[454Puma]

dieselman
  Yep use the Lee dies as well! I like them for Rifles!  Obviously this one going more of a challenge then my other rifles! I'll get down to Cabellas next week and get some 68-75gr bullets and see if that's an easy fix , though I have 500 55 gr FMJBT's coming!    

Mannyrock
  I think you may be right as far as the 55grs! I'll mess with OAL /crimp and see if I can get them too 2" or so at 100 yards and use them for General plinking /SHTF duty! 

[NickSS]

I have found that to get accurate loads in an AR you need to first sort brass by head stamp, second size and trim to length, third weigh the brass and sort by weight, weigh the bullets and sort by weight.  Then load your ammo and keep your brass together.  I use a 1 in 8 twist for match shooting and my rifle will print nice small groups it I do this.  I have also found that winchester brass is more consistent and I use it for all my long range loads.  By the way My 1 in 9 twist Olympic arms carbine will shoot un-weighed brass as well as unsorted with bulk 55 gr bullets into 1 to 1.5 inch groups (10 shots) at 100 yards with iron sights.

[R.W.Dale]

A couple points of claarification are needed

what rifle and optic

and what bullet


If you're expecting anything even remotely resembling accuracy from a FMJ-BT you're going to be disappointed. These bullets are easily the least accurate rifle projectile mankind has yet devised.

[454Puma]

krochus
 The rifle is a Colt HBAR 20" MATCH TARGET! Open sites!
 Bullets
  Midway FMJ 55gr
  Rem Corlok's 55gr
  SEI 69gr HPBT
  60 gr V-max
  75 gr HPBT
  75 gr A-max

 

[R.W.Dale]

krochus
 The rifle is a Colt HBAR 20" MATCH TARGET! Open sites!
 Bullets
  Midway FMJ 55gr
  Rem Corlok's 55gr
  SEI 69gr HPBT
  60 gr V-max
  75 gr HPBT
  75 gr A-max

 

And accuracy is still bad?

if so then you appear to have some kind of rifle problem, Heck my pencil barred USGI surplus A1 upper will do well under 2" at 100 using a trijicon reflex sight no less.


Something I see mentioned in this thread is in my experience a bit of a myth a fast twist should not effect accuracy of lighter projectiles except in cases where centrifugal  force tears a very lightly constructed bullet apart

[454Puma]

krochus
 Well I know what the problem is - Got AR wobble! The upper doesn't fit tightly on the lower- noticeable wobble planning on shimming to tighten it up! Did a temp shim today and it improved accuracy big time!  as you can see from the target below! This was shot with Fed M193 ball at 50 yards open sites! 

[teamnelson]

Well my Colt is used but I think very lightly used ,as it looks brand new! It does have a 1-7 twist barrel  I guess I'm asking to much from the 55 gr bullets!

1-7" twist, your accuracy is going to be better with heavier bullets. Folks can debate the myth factor all day ... having fired a whole lot of 5.56 in the A1, A2, A4 and M4, the milspec 55gr is not intended for precision work and enjoys the 1-12" twist. Currently the military is going with faster twist and heavier bullets for designated marksman, which your HBAR Match is set up for. Now that you've got the wobble addressed, I think you'll find much tighter groups from your heavier bullets - you might consider the Hornady 73grs sold by the CMP.

[454Puma]

TeamNelson
   Yep I'm just waiting on my Optic to arrive today!  Open sits are fine for target shooting but I plan on hunting with this gun (Yotes) so I need some help for these old eyes!      I tried the 69-thru 75 gr A-max! Then discovered  the fit problem so I'll have to revisit my load testing with these as they didn't perform that great with the "Wobble"!